Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[A New Era]

Pierre's OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

2000: .326 (51 games)

2001: .353

2002: .313

2003: .334

2004: .341

2005: .302

Career: .329

 

Wilkerson's OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

2001: .296 (47 games)

2002: .357

2003: .363

2004: .365

2005: .336

Career: .352

 

There simply isn't a case for Pierre being better than Wilkerson even when you take into account Wilkerson's poor basestealing.

 

What you don't take into account in those adjusted stats is the the effect of having an effective runner on the bases having on a pitcher. Wilkerson doesn't give that threat. I have not seen it as a Cubs fan but I will be paying close attention to see how Pierre truely effects posing pitchers. And I'm excited watch that and see for myself how true it is or not.

[A New Era]

What kind of leadoff man needs SLG %? His job is to get on base regardless if its bunting, singles, or doubles. Sure I'd prefer doubles, but the guy gets on base.

 

 

Bottom line.

 

.248 batting average of leadoff hitters in 05.

 

Pierre is a monster upgrade.

 

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Let's just assume Pierre bounces back to norm. Say he posts a .340 OBP 2006. .248 out of leadoff for us last year. MONSTER UPGRADE indeed. How do you think that will effect Lee's RBIs and our runs scored out of lead-off. Quite a bit I think. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Cubzfan64]

So i go to hospital for a day and it all kicks off!! Anyone want to summarise this 25 page thread? Any ideas on the 2nd trade to take place??. From a personal point of view i learned that i may go blind within a few months so at least i wont be watching pierres awful defence next year!! I'll just listen to Rons howling instead!!!

 

Jeez man, I'm sorry

 

Same here - really sorry to hear that :-(. Keep the faith, maybe there's something that can be done!

[cubbyvirus00]

I'm just tired of seeing people post "OMG WE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN (insert better precieved option here) !!!!"

 

The Marlins were a good fit, and a willing partner. The Phillies were not actively shopping Michaels, and the Nationals don't know if they're selling or buying. They don't even have a clear owner of the team.

[imb]

I'm just tired of seeing people post "OMG WE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN (insert better precieved option here) !!!!"

 

The Marlins were a good fit, and a willing partner. The Phillies were not actively shopping Michaels, and the Nationals don't know if they're selling or buying. They don't even have a clear owner of the team.

 

That is a very REALISTic point of view

[Blueheart05]

What kind of leadoff man needs SLG %? His job is to get on base regardless if its bunting, singles, or doubles. Sure I'd prefer doubles, but the guy gets on base.

 

 

Bottom line.

 

.248 batting average of leadoff hitters in 05.

 

Pierre is a monster upgrade.

 

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Let's just assume Pierre bounces back to norm. Say he posts a .340 OBP 2006. .248 out of leadoff for us last year. MONSTER UPGRADE indeed. How do you think that

will effect Lee's RBIs and our runs scored out of lead-off. Quite a bit I think. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

.340 OBP for Pierre isn't that good but I get your point. In his most productive years he's around .350/.360+ That would be sweet along with an improvement in his SB%.

 

Like it or people, he's our leadoff man. I'll be rooting for him to have a great year.

[rocket]

If we batted Neifi leadoff and put him in center, it would have been an improvement over Corey. Just because Pierre is better than Corey doesn't mean this is a good trade.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Will he get to wear #9, or was that retired in honor of Damon Buford?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Pierre's OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

2000: .326 (51 games)

2001: .353

2002: .313

2003: .334

2004: .341

2005: .302

Career: .329

 

Wilkerson's OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

2001: .296 (47 games)

2002: .357

2003: .363

2004: .365

2005: .336

Career: .352

 

There simply isn't a case for Pierre being better than Wilkerson even when you take into account Wilkerson's poor basestealing.

 

What you don't take into account in those adjusted stats is the the effect of having an effective runner on the bases having on a pitcher. Wilkerson doesn't give that threat. I have not seen it as a Cubs fan but I will be paying close attention to see how Pierre truely effects posing pitchers. And I'm excited watch that and see for myself how true it is or not.

 

Looking at Pierre and Castillo, when one performs well, the other doesn't perform as well, and vice versa. Their production is almost a perfect ratio in that sense. If anything, you could draw the conclusion that having Pierre on base is a negative for the hitter, who has to worry about not swinging when Pierre takes off, etc.

[ConstableRabbit]

I'm just tired of seeing people post "OMG WE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN (insert better precieved option here) !!!!"

 

The Marlins were a good fit, and a willing partner. The Phillies were not actively shopping Michaels, and the Nationals don't know if they're selling or buying. They don't even have a clear owner of the team.

 

That is a very REALISTic point of view

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Also annoying are those "let's trade some crappy players for Abreu! Philly will do it because they'll get rid of all that salary!!!"

 

It's done. Maybe not the best deal, but it's done.

Go Cubs!

 

P.S. IMB, I can't stop laughing at that Dusty loop. I find it incredibly funny for some odd reason. :lol:

[abuck1220]

 

i don't think washburn's going to make me feel any better about the lack of offensive production in the OF. i don't think the cubs need to get another starter at this point.

 

What production did we have in CF last year? Did we upgrade? YES. What production did we have in RF last year, will we upgrade? YES. Did will totally whoop the Cards and Stros last year? YES. Did we loose to bad teams last year? YES. Making some changes, getting rid of a few players, and adding a few different guys to our core is going to bring some positive things next year. I have a good feeling, I'm sorry I just have a good feeling and that's as much as I can argue right there. I do think we need another pitcher though, you can't count on Wood and we need another strong starter to compliment Zambrono and Prior.

 

who cares what we did against the cards and the astros in a limited amount of games? clearly the cubs weren't better than them, regardless of what they did over the span of 15 games or whatever.

 

i'm not doubting that pierre is an upgrade over patterson, or that bradley/wilkerson is an upgrade over burnitz. but the cubs finished in fourth place twenty some games behind the cardinals...i don't think that they are a few minor upgrades away from leaping over three teams.

[cubbyvirus00]

If we batted Neifi leadoff and put him in center, it would have been an improvement over Corey. Just because Pierre is better than Corey doesn't mean this is a good trade.

 

 

good point. would it be wrong to assume Pierre can get better? He's 28 years old.

[BCVM22]

Will he get to wear #9, or was that retired in honor of Damon Buford?

 

Damon Buford? No no no. If anything, the number should be retired in honor of Scott McClain. :wink:

 

That said, the number should be open for Pierre once he gets around to picking his Cubs uniform number.

[rocket]

If we batted Neifi leadoff and put him in center, it would have been an improvement over Corey. Just because Pierre is better than Corey doesn't mean this is a good trade.

 

 

good point. would it be wrong to assume Pierre can get better? He's 28 years old.

 

I don't think anyone is saying Pierre won't put up better numbers than last season. I'm positive he will. But I think we overpayed for an upgrade that is barely significant.

[goonys evil twin]

Say he posts a .340 OBP 2006. .248 out of leadoff for us last year. MONSTER UPGRADE indeed. How do you think that will effect Lee's RBIs and our runs scored out of lead-off. Quite a bit I think.

 

We don't know. Depends a lot on the 2 hole hitter (Neifi or Walker?) and whether Lee comes close to duplicating his career year. I for one will think Lee will have a significantly less productive season. He's a career 864 OPS guy, with a 1080 last season. If he falls back to his previous career high, it would be .271/.379/.508, if he finds a happy medium between his best and second best seasons, it might be something like .300/.390/.550. That's a 940 OPS, or 140 points off last year, which would negate any benefit of going from last year's CF to Pierre.

 

 

 

FYI, last year the Cubs ranked 16th in OPS out of CF in the NL, dead last. Pathetic. Definitely need better.

 

Florida was 15th.

 

This is a minor upgrade, but nothing close to a major improvement. If you think Pierre will have a bounceback year, you have to be fair and think Lee will have a slight decline and Patterson might have a bounceback as well.

 

This team still needs major help, as the moves so far have only added role players.

[Blueheart05]

If we batted Neifi leadoff and put him in center, it would have been an improvement over Corey. Just because Pierre is better than Corey doesn't mean this is a good trade.

 

I didn't say he was an improvement over Corey. I was talking about an improvement at leadoff where, as it was reported in the news papers, the Cubs tried 8 different batters who combined to hit .248

 

Top of the order was a black hole in the lineup last year. I think Hendry is still looking for another top of the order guy to replace Walker in the MI. It will be nice to solidify the guys infront of the meat of the order.

 

One could argue that Neifi and Corey shouldn't have been hitting at the top (I agree) but that was the reality. This off season move (and a pending move) eliminate that possibility in the future.

[MPrior]

So have we figured out what the actual trade is yet?

[Clogged Basepaths]

Did anybody else notice the header for the stat portion of Kiley's article?

 

I'm going to assume that nobody even saw it, because there is no way that it wouldn't have popped up in 25+ pages about Pierre.

 

BATTING IN THE JUAN-HOLE

 

I kid you not. That sounds like potentially the dirtiest thing I've ever heard. Or, somebody forgot to pass that by a middle schooler to ensure that it's not taken out of context in this manner.

 

POW! RIGHT IN THE JUAN-HOLE!!!

[goonys evil twin]

 

i don't think washburn's going to make me feel any better about the lack of offensive production in the OF. i don't think the cubs need to get another starter at this point.

 

What production did we have in CF last year? Did we upgrade? YES. What production did we have in RF last year, will we upgrade? YES.

 

The Cubs were 16th in OPS from CF, Florida was 15th.

The Cubs were 15th in OPS from RF, they better get somebody who puts them into the top half, at least. CF was a minor upgrade, not nearly enough to help this team.

[Chocolate Milk]

Holy crap, I had forgotten how completely terrible Corey was last year. I was just looking at the stats...

 

.215/.254/.348!!!!

 

Oh my god!!!!!!!

 

 

Carry on.

[A New Era]

I agree. We are not done yet fixing this team.

 

All I am saying is if our Aquisitions are Pierre, Wilkerson, Lugo, and Washburn, then I would be extremely happy. And that's a very realistic wish. It's also realistic to think Murton will continue to be a patient hitter making the pitcher pitch count go up. There's always going to be a negative view point. But as far as improvement.

 

Murton - improvement over LF last year

Pierre - improvement over CF

Wilkerson - improvement over RF

Cedeno - improvement over SS

 

Middle Infeild is sketchy, I don't have any idea how will will proceed. But if it ends up something like Cedeno - Lugo then it will be pretty simular offensively (Cedeno assuming worse than Walker but Lugo better than Perez). . But it would be an improvement defensively over last year while retaining a simular potency offensively.

[sweetpeteman]

great, now we get a year of Pierre vs. Podsednik talk from sports radio...

[gflore34]

What kind of leadoff man needs SLG %? His job is to get on base regardless if its bunting, singles, or doubles. Sure I'd prefer doubles, but the guy gets on base.

 

 

Bottom line.

 

.248 batting average of leadoff hitters in 05.

 

Pierre is a monster upgrade.

 

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Let's just assume Pierre bounces back to norm. Say he posts a .340 OBP 2006. .248 out of leadoff for us last year. MONSTER UPGRADE indeed. How do you think that will effect Lee's RBIs and our runs scored out of lead-off. Quite a bit I think. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

To further your point:

Be it at 2b or SS, Neifi' going to be there opening day, Dusty will find a way. Therefore, who's more acceptable leading off, Neifi or Pierre?

[goonys evil twin]

What kind of leadoff man needs SLG %? His job is to get on base regardless if its bunting, singles, or doubles. Sure I'd prefer doubles, but the guy gets on base.

 

 

Bottom line.

 

.248 batting average of leadoff hitters in 05.

 

Pierre is a monster upgrade.

 

 

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!! Let's just assume Pierre bounces back to norm. Say he posts a .340 OBP 2006. .248 out of leadoff for us last year. MONSTER UPGRADE indeed. How do you think that will effect Lee's RBIs and our runs scored out of lead-off. Quite a bit I think. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

 

To further your point:

Be it at 2b or SS, Neifi' going to be there opening day, Dusty will find a way. Therefore, who's more acceptable leading off, Neifi or Pierre?

 

Dusty proofing isn't improving.

 

If Walker is traded, odds are pretty decent that Neifi will bat 2nd, at least for a significant portion of the season.

[Diffusion]

Pierre's OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

2000: .326 (51 games)

2001: .353

2002: .313

2003: .334

2004: .341

2005: .302

Career: .329

 

Wilkerson's OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

2001: .296 (47 games)

2002: .357

2003: .363

2004: .365

2005: .336

Career: .352

 

There simply isn't a case for Pierre being better than Wilkerson even when you take into account Wilkerson's poor basestealing.

 

What you don't take into account in those adjusted stats is the the effect of having an effective runner on the bases having on a pitcher. Wilkerson doesn't give that threat. I have not seen it as a Cubs fan but I will be paying close attention to see how Pierre truely effects posing pitchers. And I'm excited watch that and see for myself how true it is or not.

 

I mentioned that on, like, the fourth page. But check this out...

 

Player C (C for Cubs') OBP numbers taking into account CS:

 

1996: .281 (25 games)

1997: .288 (52 games)

1998: .360

1999: .326

2000: .351 (80 games)

2001: .342

2002: .346

2003: .331

2004: .345

2005: .353

Career: .340

 

Player C's SLG numbers taking into account SB:

 

1996: .346 (25 games)

1997: .382 (52 games)

1998: .497

1999: .420

2000: .495 (80 games)

2001: .460

2002: .440

2003: .429

2004: .468

2005: .475

Career: .451

 

So here you have a guy that's .340/.451 career, compared to Pierre's .329/.427, clearly better. Like Pierre he's also a slightly below average defender. He'll earn half Pierre's salary in 2006, and since he's already on the Cubs, he'll not cost anything in prospects.

 

The only difference is that Pierre is obviously a better baserunner, when by baserunner I mean staying out of the double play, going from first to third on a single, scoring from first on a double, scoring from second on a single, putting off the pitcher and defence, forcing errors, everything that is supposedly associated with speed, for right or wrong, besides, specifially, anything to do with basestealing.

 

Are you arguing that Pierre's baserunning is worth 11 points of OBP and 24 points of slugging? If so, are you arguing that Pierre's baserunning is worth 11 points of OBP, 24 points of slugging, Pinto, Nolasco and Mitre, plus about $2.5m of payroll?

 

If not, then why on earth has Hendry made it his top priority to trade for Pierre on the basis that he's a leadoff hitter?

 

Surely, with a decent leadoff hitter already in hand as it is, he should be pursuing the best all-round centre fielder he can get, not insisting upon overpaying for the rare and thus overvalued commodity that is a leadoff hitter?