Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[Diffusion]

Positives:

1. The Cubs acquire a CF and lead-off man that has had success in the role.

 

Career high OBP of .341 outside of Coors Field when you take into account all the caught stealings. That's a strange idea you have there of success in the leadoff role.

 

2. Pierre will be a significant upgrade over what we had in the position last season.

 

Neifi Perez outhit Cub centre fielders last year. So, regarding the fact that there's an upgrade involved, big deal, frankly.

 

3. We made the trade without giving up Jerome Williams or Rich Hill or Todd Walker.

 

The fact that we could have made a worse trade doesn't make a bad trade any better.

 

Seriously dude when you make up your own stats that jade everything in your direction how does anyone present a coherent argument against what you are saying? or i guess thats what you were hoping.

 

If you want to argue that the very unconventional statistic that I've decided to use in this instance isn't applicable, shoot.

 

Why is it unfair to subtract caught stealings from times on base?

 

Is it not the case that the purpose of getting on base is to allow those behind you to drive you in such that the team scores a run?

 

And is it not the case that if you get caught stealing, you're not giving those behind you that opportunity?

 

Lets get this straight Coors effects power hitters numbers (i.e. Sammy's stats there) not slap hitters that keep it on the deck.

 

Is Neifi Perez a power hitter or a slap hitter?

 

Well he's a .320/.346/.481 hitter in Coors Field.

 

You and others were going to be mad with ANY move and also with ANY non-move.

 

That's quite simply not true.

[wilk]

This thread became pretty annoying. I'd make a new thread to discuss the trade specifics rather than flexing our sabermetric muscles but then the thread would be locked and I'd be directed here... Do we have any confirmation? Was Mitre included? Was he not? Any word on who the second trade that's apparently still on the table is to?

[Mizzou]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

 

As predicted, the first response focused on last year. What about his career line? 305 average, 355 OBP. Also, are you aware that his career OPS in day games is .824? Juan Pierre is a good hitter.

[frostwyrm]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

That's how I see it too. Despite his speed, in 2005 Pierre had only 19 doubles in 719 plate appearances. He hits the ball softly and tall grass won't help him unless he wants to bunt half the time.

[BigbadB]

Lets get this straight Coors effects power hitters numbers (i.e. Sammy's stats there) not slap hitters that keep it on the deck.

 

You and others were going to be mad with ANY move and also with ANY non-move.

 

 

Not true. Aaron Miles, Clint Barmes, Neifi Perez or any of the other guys they've had in Colorado with little to no power have incredible surges in offensive production due to the size of Coors Field.

 

HR's actually aren't all that much higher than other parks, if I recall correctly.

The thinner air doesn't just affect how far you can hit the ball. It also affects pitching. Pitches move because of friction with the air. Less dense air=less movement on the pitch. Curve balls and sliders move less. Knuckleballs? ha! Fastballs with nasty movement become meatballs.

 

Right. Coors numbers has just as much to do with pitchers losing stuff than it has to do with "thin air" causing the ball to carry.

 

I did leave that out, but it was supposed to be assumed that the mile high positioning of the stadium has a lot to do with the offensive surge. I was just correcting the person who stated that it's only offensively superior for power hitters, which isn't true. The dimensions make it very difficult to hit a ball out in center (unless you hit a Sammy Sosa power shot).

 

Still waiting for confirmation from someone that a pick off is considered a Caught Stealing?

[Lefty]

I have a dumb question that I'm hoping someone can answer. Does getting picked off 1st base count towards Caught Stealing

 

Yes

 

I don't think so, unless you take off for second. The ESPN stats package has pickoffs by pitcher and caught stealings as separate stats.

Edited December 7, 2005 by Lefty

[JeffH]

Still waiting for confirmation from someone that a pick off is considered a Caught Stealing?

 

Confirmed.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I have a dumb question that I'm hoping someone can answer. Does getting picked off 1st base count towards Caught Stealing

 

Yes

 

I don't think so, unless you take off for second. The ESPN stats package has pickoffs by pitcher and caught stealings as separate stats.

 

Pickoffs are only a pitcher's stat as far as I know.

[frostwyrm]

So now both Chicago teams have 2 of the fastest players in MLB. I like this move the only knock on Pierre as far as I'm concerned is his weak arm in CF.

 

The real knock on him is that he's completely one-dimensional. If he suffers even a minor injury that reduces his speed he instantly becomes one of the worst players in baseball.

[Diffusion]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

Except Furcal wasn't hitting ahead of Castillo, Cabrera and Delgado, or an equivalent trio, Furcal played 8 games fewer while amassing 29 fewer plate appearances, and Furcal's effective OBP at .333 wasn't that hot.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single day should score at least 120 runs.

 

I don't have the energy to research this right now, but I believe that you'll find that the list of league leaders in runs scored is usually filled with power hitters. If you don't drive yourself in a lot, it's tough to have huge runs scored totals.

 

I could be proven wrong.

 

I don't see how this, which is true, impacts upon what I was saying.

 

A good leadoff hitter hitting in front of three fine hitters and playing every single should score score at least 120 runs.

 

Take, for instance, Johnny Damon. His OBP with CS taken into account in 2005 was .365. He was hitting in front of the pretty awful Renteria, and the pretty awesome Ortiz and Manny. In 148 games, he scored 117 runs.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

God bless all the Cubs fans I work with who think Pierre is a really good player.

 

:wink:

[BigbadB]

Still waiting for confirmation from someone that a pick off is considered a Caught Stealing?

 

Confirmed.

 

Cool. 2 confirmations and 2 denials. Which is it?

 

Did Juan Pierre get caught stealing 2nd or 3rd 17 times last season, or was he picked off 1st base half of those times?

 

Or, was he caught stealing 17 times and picked off maybe another 3 or 4 times?

[Guest]

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

Cut the friggin' grass.

 

I would guess that the long grass would give Pierre an opprtunity to beat out more hits. Unless the infield came in, and that also is an advantage for the hitter, he'd gain a fraction of a second. No?

That's of little consolation when the player hits .129 on balls fielded by infielders. (As Pierre did on 2005.)

[ThePenguin11]

So now both Chicago teams have 2 of the fastest players in MLB. I like this move the only knock on Pierre as far as I'm concerned is his weak arm in CF.

 

The real knock on him is that he's completely one-dimensional. If he suffers even a minor injury that reduces his speed he instantly becomes one of the worst players in baseball.

 

Well, then he should be fine considering he hasn't missed a game in three years. He's as much an Iron Man as DLee.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm curious what Pierre's AVG would be if he bunted every time?

In 2004 Pierre hit .380 in (non-sacrifice) bunt attempts. In 2005 he hit .431 when bunting for a hit.

 

This is interesting stat:

We know Dusty likes guys who can excute a bunt.

The tall grass in the Wrigley field IF will only help Pierre.

If by "help" you mean "hurt", I agree.

Pierre hits ground balls. On the ground. In the grass. they will go slowly. Fielders will get them. they will not go through holes to the OF.

He will be thrown out

 

Cut the friggin' grass.

 

You have to talk to the Grass Cutters Union Local 123 and they are harder to deal with than the previous Tampa Bay GM.

 

Couldn't you say that if the grass was shorter his grounders would get to the fielder faster and help the fielder to get the ball to first before he could reach? I never understood the grass length argument. If Pierre rolls one halfway to a fielder and past the pitcher, he has the edge because of his speed - and in most cases the fielder would have to put the ball in his pocket to save from throwing past the first baseman off-balanced.

 

I think it depends on how hard Pierre hits the ball. If he hits a bunch of slow rollers yeah, that may help him. If the fielders are playing up I think they will be able to get those slow grounders but if the grass is short the harder grounders are going to get through quicker and the 3rd baseman will have less time to react.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

That's of little consolation when the player hits .129 on balls fielded by infielders. (As Pierre did on 2005.)

 

That stat's a bit confusing to me. What is the league average for balls fielded by infielders. My guess is if it's fielded, everyone's average would be quite low.

[Diffusion]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

 

As predicted, the first response focused on last year. What about his career line? 305 average, 355 OBP. Also, are you aware that his career OPS in day games is .824? Juan Pierre is a good hitter.

 

How do you explain the .824 OPS in day games?

 

If you don't have an explanation, how do you know it will translate to day games in Wrigley?

 

And his career OBP when you take into account his caught stealings is .329. All of a sudden not so impressive.

 

And, while it's convenient for people to overlook this .329 stat because I've just made it up, still no-one has made a case for it being unjustified.

[Tracer Bullet]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

 

As predicted, the first response focused on last year. What about his career line? 305 average, 355 OBP. Also, are you aware that his career OPS in day games is .824? Juan Pierre is a good hitter.

 

His career line also includes time spent in Denver, which as others have pointed out, inflates the offensive numbers of even slap hitters. It's true that Pierre has been good at times (if he gets on base at that .360-.370 clip from 03 or 04, I'd be happy - unless he gets caught stealing 25% of the time he tries to steal). But he's also been quite bad not only last year, but also 2002 (.332/.343 OBP/SLG - and that was in Coors). If I knew which Pierre we were getting, I might be happy. But I don't think you can categorically say that he's a good hitter - at least not with such dismissiveness. I'd say he's a very inconsistent hitter.

 

If only we had a guy on our team who could get on base at a .355 clip, wouldn't cost us 3 prospects, and will make less money next year...oh wait.

[ThePenguin11]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

[ThePenguin11]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

Come on, no cheating. Did everyone have to consult the stats before they could answer Podsednik? Pierre's numbers have been considerably better, but because the Sox had such a great year last year with Scotty Pods at the top and Pods was the catalyst, people forget that his stats are inferior to Pierre's.

[Mizzou]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

 

As predicted, the first response focused on last year. What about his career line? 305 average, 355 OBP. Also, are you aware that his career OPS in day games is .824? Juan Pierre is a good hitter.

 

How do you explain the .824 OPS in day games?

 

If you don't have an explanation, how do you know it will translate to day games in Wrigley?

 

And his career OBP when you take into account his caught stealings is .329. All of a sudden not so impressive.

 

And, while it's convenient for people to overlook this .329 stat because I've just made it up, still no-one has made a case for it being unjustified.

 

Some players see the ball better in day games - that appears to be the case with Pierre.

 

I'm not saying it's unjustified, but you can't throw that .329 stat out there like it's authoritative. Pierre's running ability and decision to steal aren't the sole factors. Botched hit and runs, unseen pitch outs, etc. can all play a factor in a player getting caught stealing.

[CubinNY]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

That question is tottally irrelavent unless the Cubs just traded for Podsednik.

 

Pierre is likely better than Patterson, but only fractionally better. Suppose he gets hit in the leg with a FB. He probably will not be on the DL so he may play every day. Untill his leg fully heals he has almost no value.

[Andy]

What was the biggest reason DLee and Co. couldn't drive in more runs for the Cubs:

 

Answer: There was never anyone on base.

 

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base.

 

This is a good move.

[Gunned]

This entire thread is irritating. It's just a bunch of you guys trying to sound smarter than one another by spewing stats and formulas that you read one time on Baseball Prospectus. My guess is that half of you don't even understand how to apply them.

 

Is Pierre a flawed player? Absolutely.

 

He's not perfect. But he does do some nice things. And most importantly, he's a Cub now, and I'm going to root for him and hope that he rebounds and has a great year. You guys can go ahead keep stepping all over one another to sound like the smartest loon in the asylum. I've had enough.

[The Voice of Reason]

CardFanInChi

Card Talk Forum User

 

 

Post subject: Pierre

 

 

CardsFanInChiTown"]God bless all the Cubs fans I work with who think Pierre is a really good player.

:wink

 

"Just average at the leadoff spots is a huge upgrade for the Cubs. If Prior and Wood stay healthy they will be a force.

 

I can't help wondering about Corey Patterson. Maybe a change of scenery and a shiny new red hat would do wonders for that guy. "

 

Would Edmonds share CF and some eye shadow with him? CFIC you can have him. Good riddance. Pierre is a huge upgrade over Patterson (who will never be Lou Brock).