Howry signs with Cubs (yes, it's official)

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Is this deal official yet or is it still a rumor?

 

still rumor

[RynoRules]

Or, we could use that money to sign someone like Ryan who's been lights out for a while, or trade for someone who's capable and we don't have to make a 3 year commitment to.

 

Not unless Dempster wants to set-up. Ryan says he wants to close, which is why the Yanks are not getting him.

 

Then let Ryan close.

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

Then trade Dempster if he has a huge problem with it, his value will likely never be higher anyway. Use him in a deal for Abreu, Philly needs a closer.

 

Not really. Ryan is likely to go there if Wagner signs with the Mets.

[CuseCubFan69]

Is this deal official yet or is it still a rumor?

 

still rumor

 

Thanks, I think it helps him that his agent floated this rumor out there with the Yanks desperate for pen help. :wink:

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Or, we could use that money to sign someone like Ryan who's been lights out for a while, or trade for someone who's capable and we don't have to make a 3 year commitment to.

 

Not unless Dempster wants to set-up. Ryan says he wants to close, which is why the Yanks are not getting him.

 

Then let Ryan close.

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

Then trade Dempster if he has a huge problem with it, his value will likely never be higher anyway. Use him in a deal for Abreu, Philly needs a closer.

 

Not really. Ryan is likely to go there if Wagner signs with the Mets.

 

Well, in this scenario we already have Ryan. With Wagner in NY, Philly's out of luck.

[abuck1220]

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

isn't he supposed to be the clubhouse/chemistry/attitude superking? if so, he should take it in stride since it would be the best thing for the team.

 

Sure. That seems to be the response anytime this question or one like it comes up. Its a very helpful and productive solution.

 

A better argument - and one I could understand - would be that we should not have resigned Dempster until we took a run at Ryan. That's a reasonable argument.

 

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

[RynoRules]

Or, we could use that money to sign someone like Ryan who's been lights out for a while, or trade for someone who's capable and we don't have to make a 3 year commitment to.

 

Not unless Dempster wants to set-up. Ryan says he wants to close, which is why the Yanks are not getting him.

 

Then let Ryan close.

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

Then trade Dempster if he has a huge problem with it, his value will likely never be higher anyway. Use him in a deal for Abreu, Philly needs a closer.

 

Not really. Ryan is likely to go there if Wagner signs with the Mets.

 

Well, in this scenario we already have Ryan. With Wagner in NY, Philly's out of luck.

 

OK - so now we are advocating signing Ryan, thus forcing us to trade Dempster, who just signed a new deal and is thus likely to be untradeable under the players CBA. But even if that were not the case, Hendry is now (once again) in a terrible negotiating posture b/c the he must deal Dempster.

 

Its fantasyland, IMO.

[muntjack]

I can live with Howry and Eyre. It looks like I'm going to have to. :wink:

 

These moves wouldn't look so bad if they weren't preceeded by Neifi and Rusch getting far more than they're worth. Overpaying for two of the better FA relief pitchers on the FA market isn't a horrible idea, but I would have preferred to go in a different direction (like throwing that money at the offense and starting pitching). Call it complaining if you want to. It's my opinion and I'll say whatever I want, thank you very much.

 

Hopefully we are going to have a stud bullpen next year. It's an expensive pen, but hey, as long as they get it done I won't be complaining midseason. We're going to need them if Prior continues his nibbling and Wood's shoulder acts up.

 

 

Yes, these bullpen moves are VERY bold. If they revert to their career norms, Hendry is going to look like a fool.

 

What I'm hoping for is this scenario:

 

 

-Hendry has preliminary discussions on obtaining an impact bat for the outfield (Abreu, Dunn, Manny).

 

-The other team wants lots of pitching (Williams, Wuertz, Novoa, Nolasco)

 

-Hendry doesn't want to make the deal before acquiring "proven" arms to replace them.

 

-The deal is so big, Hendry is willing to overpay to move things along quickly.

 

 

Perhaps this is a fantasy, but I think it's very possible.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

Then trade Dempster if he has a huge problem with it, his value will likely never be higher anyway. Use him in a deal for Abreu, Philly needs a closer.

 

Not really. Ryan is likely to go there if Wagner signs with the Mets.

 

Well, in this scenario we already have Ryan. With Wagner in NY, Philly's out of luck.

 

OK - so now we are advocating signing Ryan, thus forcing us to trade Dempster, who just signed a new deal and is thus likely to be untradeable under the players CBA. But even if that were not the case, Hendry is now (once again) in a terrible negotiating posture b/c the he must deal Dempster.

 

Its fantasyland, IMO.

 

You only need to trade Dempster if he throws a fit about not being the closer, which isn't that likely anyway. He never HAS to deal Dempster.

[RynoRules]

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

isn't he supposed to be the clubhouse/chemistry/attitude superking? if so, he should take it in stride since it would be the best thing for the team.

 

Sure. That seems to be the response anytime this question or one like it comes up. Its a very helpful and productive solution.

 

A better argument - and one I could understand - would be that we should not have resigned Dempster until we took a run at Ryan. That's a reasonable argument.

 

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I love how these guys are treated like robots simply b/c stats exist by which we can evaluate them.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

isn't he supposed to be the clubhouse/chemistry/attitude superking? if so, he should take it in stride since it would be the best thing for the team.

 

Sure. That seems to be the response anytime this question or one like it comes up. Its a very helpful and productive solution.

 

A better argument - and one I could understand - would be that we should not have resigned Dempster until we took a run at Ryan. That's a reasonable argument.

 

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I love how these guys are treated like robots simply b/c stats exist by which we can evaluate them.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

The guy just got a huge extension! We're not taking money away from him, we're putting him in a different role. Would you accept a demotion if you got a huge raise and job security for several years?

[CuseCubFan69]

If the Cubs get Ryan get ready for Jacque Jones in right and CPatt or someone like him in center along with Macias on the bench.

[JeffH]

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I'm not 100% certain about this, but I believe that, if, during contract negotiations, you tell a guy what his role is going to be and you don't use him like that, you'll be in jeopardy of a union grievance.

 

I suppose you can get around that by saying "we're also going to pursue ___________ and, if we get him, you'll be doing _____________ work" or "you'll have a chance to make the rotation" (a la Rusch).

 

If the guy sucks and gets demoted for performance, that's a different issue.

[RynoRules]

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

isn't he supposed to be the clubhouse/chemistry/attitude superking? if so, he should take it in stride since it would be the best thing for the team.

 

Sure. That seems to be the response anytime this question or one like it comes up. Its a very helpful and productive solution.

 

A better argument - and one I could understand - would be that we should not have resigned Dempster until we took a run at Ryan. That's a reasonable argument.

 

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I love how these guys are treated like robots simply b/c stats exist by which we can evaluate them.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

The guy just got a huge extension! We're not taking money away from him, we're putting him in a different role. Would you accept a demotion if you got a huge raise and job security for several years?

 

Can't answer that out of context. It depends. Money is not everything to everyone, as you are implying it is.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

If the Cubs get Ryan get ready for Jacque Jones in right and CPatt or someone like him in center along with Macias on the bench.

 

Ryan + Novoa + Cedeno = Howry + Eyre + Neifi moneywise

 

We might be looking at that regardless, and it's part of the point. If you are going to spend big money in the bullpen, get big talent and big performance.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm not 100% certain about this, but I believe that, if, during contract negotiations, you tell a guy what his role is going to be and you don't use him like that, you'll be in jeopardy of a union grievance.

 

I highly doubt the Cubs are at risk of a grievence if they use Dempster as a set-up man rather than a closer.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I'm not 100% certain about this, but I believe that, if, during contract negotiations, you tell a guy what his role is going to be and you don't use him like that, you'll be in jeopardy of a union grievance.

 

I suppose you can get around that by saying "we're also going to pursue ___________ and, if we get him, you'll be doing _____________ work" or "you'll have a chance to make the rotation" (a la Rusch).

 

If the guy sucks and gets demoted for performance, that's a different issue.

 

Maybe if he had a bunch of incentives tied to games finished or something else tied to being the closer, but I don't know how well it would hold up otherwise.

[RynoRules]

I'm not 100% certain about this, but I believe that, if, during contract negotiations, you tell a guy what his role is going to be and you don't use him like that, you'll be in jeopardy of a union grievance.

 

I highly doubt the Cubs are at risk of a grievence if they use Dempster as a set-up man rather than a closer.

 

Yeah, that would be unprecedented, I believe.

[CuseCubFan69]

If the Cubs get Ryan get ready for Jacque Jones in right and CPatt or someone like him in center along with Macias on the bench.

 

Ryan + Novoa + Cedeno = Howry + Eyre + Neifi moneywise

 

We might be looking at that regardless, and it's part of the point. If you are going to spend big money in the bullpen, get big talent and big performance.

 

I agree. I can see Hendry getting Howry, Eyre a starter and Ryan with his money and going budget on the rest of the team.

[SeldomSeen]

The guy just got a huge extension! We're not taking money away from him, we're putting him in a different role. Would you accept a demotion if you got a huge raise and job security for several years?

You don't become a professional athlete without a competitive ego. No, I wouldn't be happy about "job security" and a "huge raise" that came along with a demotion. I also wouldn't want to spend 8 months with a guy who was told to do just that. You play to compete and win, the money is a secondary issue.

[abuck1220]

The guy just got a huge extension! We're not taking money away from him, we're putting him in a different role. Would you accept a demotion if you got a huge raise and job security for several years?

You don't become a professional athlete without a competitive ego. No, I wouldn't be happy about "job security" and a "huge raise" that came along with a demotion. I also wouldn't want to spend 8 months with a guy who was told to do just that. You play to compete and win, the money is a secondary issue.

 

that's quite an assumption.

 

so you think that dempster would have turned down 15 mil to be the cubs set up man to take 1 mil to be the d-rays' closer?

 

come on, you guys are acting like the cubs would be tarring/feathering dempster by 'demoting' him to set up man. it's not like they're sending him to peoria or taking away his 15 million bucks.

[goonys evil twin]

The guy just got a huge extension! We're not taking money away from him, we're putting him in a different role. Would you accept a demotion if you got a huge raise and job security for several years?

You don't become a professional athlete without a competitive ego. No, I wouldn't be happy about "job security" and a "huge raise" that came along with a demotion. I also wouldn't want to spend 8 months with a guy who was told to do just that. You play to compete and win, the money is a secondary issue.

 

 

Right, money is secondary.

 

If Dempster would turn into a problem child if the Cubs acquired a far better reliever and gave that guy the closer's role, then Dempster is a bigger clubhouse cancer than any of the victim's of the great chemistry experiment of 2004.

[abuck1220]

 

Sure, its that simple to just walk in and tell Dempster he isn't closing anymore even though that's what he was signed to do and he did it well last season.

 

isn't he supposed to be the clubhouse/chemistry/attitude superking? if so, he should take it in stride since it would be the best thing for the team.

 

Sure. That seems to be the response anytime this question or one like it comes up. Its a very helpful and productive solution.

 

A better argument - and one I could understand - would be that we should not have resigned Dempster until we took a run at Ryan. That's a reasonable argument.

 

fine. whatever argument you want to use...but dempster + ryan (in whatever order) is better than eyre/howry + dempster. and i don't care whose feelings get hurt...this is baseball, not the girl scouts. dempster should be happy w/ the $15 mil he got and pitch whatever inning they tell him to.

 

I love how these guys are treated like robots simply b/c stats exist by which we can evaluate them.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this.

 

well, you're acting like they're sensitive, insecure little cry babies that will single handedly take down a team from the inside if they pitch the 8th inning instead of the 9th.

[wade]

A comment on the concern that the Cubs might be closing in on using up all their allowed free agent signings, could it be yet another sign that the outfield will be upgraded via trade?

[goonys evil twin]

A comment on the concern that the Cubs might be closing in on using up all their allowed free agent signings, could it be yet another sign that the outfield will be upgraded via trade?

 

That's the assumption. The question is whether it'll be a trade for quality or a trade for mediocrity.

[CubinNY]

dbl post Edited November 22, 2005 by CubinNY