Why wouldn't you sign Brian Giles?

[HoopsCubs]

I don't buy what you are saying either. If Giles specifically told his agent that he wants to play for the Yankees, Cards, Angels or Dodgers, I guarantee you Bick wouldn't bother talking to the Cubs, Mets, Tigers or Mariners in the initial rounds. Several teams could have afforded Hideki Matsui too. According to Bruce Levine, Arn Tellem didn't talk to anybody except the Yankees.

 

Totally different. Hideki was a Yankee. He always wanted to be a Yankee and made that quite clear when he first came over, and throughout his Yankee career. He stayed with his own team. There is no possible way that the agent would refuse to listen to the Cubs, that would be as incompetent as Hendry refusing to talk to Giles's agent.

 

Why are you trying so hard to search for excuses for Hendry not to fill the biggest need? When players have specific teams they refuse to consider, that stuff leaks out there, and that is usually either the Yankees, or any number of screwed up small market teams like Nationexpos, DRays, Pirates.

 

I don't get how you can't buy what I'm saying. I'm just thinking rationally, not digging up storylines with nothing to back them up. I'm not trying to stir up controversy where it doesn't exist, or completely distort the truth. Giles fills the Cubs biggest hole. He's an obvious candidate for signing. Contract rumors are not yet out of hand. Hendry would be completely incompetent if he wasn't trying to talk to the agent. Even if he didn't receive an initially warm reception he would be failing the team by not trying to acquire the best possible player he could get to fill the biggest problem on the team. You don't have to create ficticious storylines to see the logic there.

 

I'm not trying to make any excuses for anybody Goony. I want the Cubs to get Giles just as bad as you do. We have no evidence to prove or disprove Hendry's interest in Giles. We have no evidence to prove or disprove Giles' interest in the Cubs. I'm merely trying to point out that even if Hendry approached Giles and his agent, they may have said, "we're not interested in playing for the Cubs." Likewise, maybe Giles approached the Cubs, and Hendry said, "we're not interested in more than 2 years." I'm looking at this more from Giles' point of view than the Cubs' point of view. In my view, the Cubs can offer nothing that the Cardinals and Yankees can't match. That's the reality.

[HoopsCubs]

I don't understand why people are assuming that the Cubs have no chance to sign Giles. Please explain. Something other than, "He wants to play on the west coast."

 

The Yankees can offer him more money and years than the Cubs.

The Yankees, Cardinals, Braves and Angels can offer him a better probability of post-season appearances than the Cubs.

 

The Cubs' only shot is that Giles makes a decision not to play in NY, and heavily prioritizes money over winning tradition.

[The Voice of Reason]

Excellent points Hoops. The Cubs aren't even needed by the Giles people to drive his price up. Sadly, the Cubs have as much chance to get Giles as they did last year to get Beltran, i.e, NONE. That's why they are focusing on obtainable targets like Furcal, Pierre, Eyre and hopefully others.

 

Why? Why is he so unattainable for the Cubs, yet a half dozen other teams supposedly have a good shot? The only way they would have no chance to sign him is if they don't try to sign him. It's a self fulfilling prophecy when you assume you can't get a guy, so you don't even try to get a guy.

 

The Cubs could sign Giles if they wanted him. There is absolutely no evidence to support the theory that he'd refuse to play for the Cubs. If you show no interest, he's not going to beg you for it. Giles is obtainable, and taking the attitude that he is not is simply sealing your own fate with mediocrity, as usual.

 

There no evidence of anything, only speculation and educated guesses. I theorize that Hendry told the Giles people that he didn't want the Cubs used solely to drive his price up (like Boras tried to do last year with Beltran).

 

The Cubs fill only one ($) of Giles apparent three "requirements" i.e, location, money and guranteed to contend. The Yankees (2), Dodgers (2), Cards (2) and Angels (3) fill more of the three needs.

 

Not trying to be a wet blanket - just a realist.

[JeffH]

Not trying to be a wet blanket - just a realist.

 

Well, cut it out.

[BigbadB]

I'd be fine with these theories if I heard it from the one of the horse's mouths.

 

If Giles doens't want to come to Chicago, I want to hear Hendry say "Giles said he is unwilling to sign a contract to play for the Cubs".

 

Then we can move on. Without it, we are left speculating why the Cubs seem to be completely ignoring the best free agent option on the market.

[TheDude]

He definately has an aversion to the aged player, preferring to play the odds and ignore the exceptions.

 

What evidence do you have to back that claim up? Hendry loves old ballplayers. He was, by all accounts, behind the Alou and Remlinger signings, he went hard after Maddux. He obviously likes older bench players, choosing to guarantee mediocrity rather than risk failure in the pursuit of greatness.

 

Show me a longterm contract Hendry worked out with a player 35 years old or older.

 

Greg Maddux and Mike Remlinger.

 

So that's two guys for Hendry's tenure. Both pitchers, who typically play the game longer than position players. And both of them received 3 year contracts maximum with full vesting.

 

That isn't exactly a history of offering 3-4 year contracts to aging playing in my book.

 

Meanwhile, on the contrary, Hendry did go after Lee at 28, Ramirez at 24, and Barret at 27 as long-term solutions.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that if Hendry has a preference for mid-twenties guys he can lock-up to build around more than 35+ guys that are anything more than stop-gaps.

[craig]

With New York having signed Matsui, I think it remains questionable how committed they will actually be to signing Giles and using Giles or Matsui in center. Perhaps that is what they'll want to do, I'm not saying it isn't. But the Yankees naturally get rumored with every big ticket player in baseball. It may well be that when it comes to cases, the Yankees will *not* prioritize Giles. And he's not the kind of familiar, high-profile AL star that gets Steinbrenner all jazzed, either.

 

I think it's entirely possible that the Yankees will *not* drive Giles price through the roof. That SanD will *not* be able to make a competitive offer.

 

If both of those hypotheticals proved true, and SanD and Yankees were out of the game, I don't see that the competition would look nearly so scary.

 

That said, I don't think Hendry is likely to be serious about Giles. Giles is an aging skills player who walks. Hendry likes young aggressive dancers. I don't see Hendry being as interested in giles as will be most GM's, so if he doesn't like the guy as much it seems unlikely that he'll outbid GM's who like Giles better than he does.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

He definately has an aversion to the aged player, preferring to play the odds and ignore the exceptions.

 

What evidence do you have to back that claim up? Hendry loves old ballplayers. He was, by all accounts, behind the Alou and Remlinger signings, he went hard after Maddux. He obviously likes older bench players, choosing to guarantee mediocrity rather than risk failure in the pursuit of greatness.

 

Show me a longterm contract Hendry worked out with a player 35 years old or older.

 

Greg Maddux and Mike Remlinger.

 

So that's two guys for Hendry's tenure. Both pitchers, who typically play the game longer than position players. And both of them received 3 year contracts maximum with full vesting.

 

That isn't exactly a history of offering 3-4 year contracts to aging playing in my book.

 

Meanwhile, on the contrary, Hendry did go after Lee at 28, Ramirez at 24, and Barret at 27 as long-term solutions.

 

It seems pretty clear to me that if Hendry has a preference for mid-twenties guys he can lock-up to build around more than 35+ guys that are anything more than stop-gaps.

 

Which is exactly why I wouldn't be surprised to see Mench (28) as the Cubs rightfielder next year.

[HoopsCubs]

I'd be fine with these theories if I heard it from the one of the horse's mouths.

 

If Giles doens't want to come to Chicago, I want to hear Hendry say "Giles said he is unwilling to sign a contract to play for the Cubs".

 

Then we can move on. Without it, we are left speculating why the Cubs seem to be completely ignoring the best free agent option on the market.

 

I don't think they are ignoring him triple B. I think Hendry has given Bick his parameters for signing Giles, I believe those parameters are 2 years and $19M guaranteed with a team option for the 3rd year at $11M or buyout at $1M.

[goonys evil twin]

It seems pretty clear to me that if Hendry has a preference for mid-twenties guys he can lock-up to build around more than 35+ guys that are anything more than stop-gaps.

 

So now Giles is a stop-gap?

 

I have no doubt that Hendry's plan was to build around the young guys that are here now. But at some point in time when building, you have to put the roof on. Lee, Ramirez and (especially) Barrett is not enough. It's not a matter of building around Giles, it's a matter of filling out the rest of the lineup with the best possible candidate.

[XZero771679666304]

My feeling is that Giles is interested in playing close to home and/or with a strong contender. I also feel that Hendry would just as soon trade for a younger (even if lesser) option rather than spend most of his offseason wooing a guy he really doesn't feel that strongly about.

 

If Giles expressed a real interest in playing for the Cubs, Hendry would pursue him. But if Giles and his camp have been cool to the idea, then I just don't think Hendry thinks it is worth the time.

 

This is all conjecture of course, but if Hendry thinks he can get another player who is younger and somewhat comparable via trade, he will not play against the odds and spend his time on Giles.

 

I may not agree, but I feel this is the case.

[goonys evil twin]

I really don't see the Yankees still having interest, unless they are intent on moving Sheffield. The Yankees have been dying for a great defensive CF for 3 years now. One of the biggest problems has been Bernie in center, with no other good options backing him up. I really see them trying to go after a legit CF, which Giles is not.

 

If the Yankees do go bonkers for Giles, and offer 5/58 or something, then I couldn't be all that pissed that Jim missed out. But I'm not going to just assume he'll get a massive deal. Everything I'm hearing right now suggests he's still in a very reasonable price range. And if he does sign for a reasonable price, then I will be very upset if Hendry stays out.

[soapy]

I don't understand why people are assuming that the Cubs have no chance to sign Giles. Please explain. Something other than, "He wants to play on the west coast."

 

The Yankees can offer him more money and years than the Cubs.

The Yankees, Cardinals, Braves and Angels can offer him a better probability of post-season appearances than the Cubs.

 

The Cubs' only shot is that Giles makes a decision not to play in NY, and heavily prioritizes money over winning tradition.

 

The Yankees can offer more money, but they may be asking him to play CF. As far as winning, I think you point out to Giles that the Cubs have been "contenders" 3 of the last 5 years (01, 03, 04) and have a young nucleus (pitchers and everyday players) to build around and give them a chance at some long term success. As frustrated as I am with the Cubs, they are probably only a few (albeit big) additions away from being a serious contender. I would say if you add Giles and Bradley (going with Cedeno at SS) and shore up your bullpen, you have a contender.

 

Walker

Murton

Lee

Giles

Ramirez

Bradley

Barrett

Cedeno

 

That is a productive lineup that is not very old overall. I believe that offense hangs with the Cardinals offense any day of the week (and they aren't bad defensively). Not too mention, (if Giles was interested in playing with the Cubs) that team would not be hard to assemble.

[YearofDaCubs]

Getting Bradley would be huge for us IMO, but Hendry would never do it.

[XZero771679666304]

I'd be fine with these theories if I heard it from the one of the horse's mouths.

 

If Giles doens't want to come to Chicago, I want to hear Hendry say "Giles said he is unwilling to sign a contract to play for the Cubs".

 

Then we can move on. Without it, we are left speculating why the Cubs seem to be completely ignoring the best free agent option on the market.

 

I don't think they are ignoring him triple B. I think Hendry has given Bick his parameters for signing Giles, I believe those parameters are 2 years and $19M guaranteed with a team option for the 3rd year at $11M or buyout at $1M.

 

And I can argue with that logic. I love Giles, but not a 3+ years. He is not a physically gifted guy as ballplayers go, and he is 35. His OBP is great, but if he loses power, he will cease to be worth 10+ million per year.

[goonys evil twin]

I also feel that Hendry would just as soon trade for a younger (even if lesser) option rather than spend most of his offseason wooing a guy he really doesn't feel that strongly about.

 

I may not agree, but I feel this is the case.

 

I feel that way as well, and that's what ticks me off. I'm not even sure Hendry thinks Giles is as good as he is, or that he could help the team. Giles is not the only option, but he is the best available right now and easiest to obtain (it takes only money, not money and trade bait).

 

I think Hendry is probably counting the days until he can sign an Encarnacion or Preston Wilson type, or that he'll be lucky enough to get his golden child Burnitz back for less money.

[HoopsCubs]

Getting Bradley would be huge for us IMO, but Hendry would never do it.

 

The Cubs supposedly talked to LA about Bradley. Nothing substantive, but multiple sources did report that conversations occured.

[BigbadB]

With New York having signed Matsui, I think it remains questionable how committed they will actually be to signing Giles and using Giles or Matsui in center. Perhaps that is what they'll want to do, I'm not saying it isn't. But the Yankees naturally get rumored with every big ticket player in baseball. It may well be that when it comes to cases, the Yankees will *not* prioritize Giles. And he's not the kind of familiar, high-profile AL star that gets Steinbrenner all jazzed, either.

 

I think it's entirely possible that the Yankees will *not* drive Giles price through the roof. That SanD will *not* be able to make a competitive offer.

 

If both of those hypotheticals proved true, and SanD and Yankees were out of the game, I don't see that the competition would look nearly so scary.

 

That said, I don't think Hendry is likely to be serious about Giles. Giles is an aging skills player who walks. Hendry likes young aggressive dancers. I don't see Hendry being as interested in giles as will be most GM's, so if he doesn't like the guy as much it seems unlikely that he'll outbid GM's who like Giles better than he does.

 

I see the Yankees getting Damon so that they call a moral victory against Boston while getting not only a decent OBP guy for the top of the order, but also a centerfielder who can cover a lot more ground than Giles.

 

Mark my words. If the Cardinals get Giles, forget the division title for the next 3 years, no matter who we get.

 

Those that "claim" declining skills is a legitimate reason for not getting him will be able to sit beside me everyday and watch just how little Giles skills will decline as he helps St. Louis win 3 more straight division titles.

 

Put Giles back in the NL Central and watch his offense go crazy, especially hitting around other good hitters, something he hasn't much opportunity to do in his career.

[YearofDaCubs]

Getting Bradley would be huge for us IMO, but Hendry would never do it.

 

The Cubs supposedly talked to LA about Bradley. Nothing substantive, but multiple sources did report that conversations occured.

Very interesting. We need to do this move. having Murton, Bradley, and Mench(Giles) would be a very good OF.

Edited November 17, 2005 by YearofDaCubs

[CubfaninCA]

Gotta agree w/ Hoops. Chicago isn't Southern California and Giles grew up in SoCal and his family's still there, so another major strike against Chicago. Also, Chicago doesn't have the Yankees or Boston's budget and the haven't won like St. Louis. Basically, they're about 6th or 7th in line, and that may be a generous placement. Not a good position to be in, as signing Giles will be quite an uphill battle.

[soapy]

Gotta agree w/ Hoops. Chicago isn't Southern California and Giles grew up in SoCal and his family's still there, so after major strike against Chicago. Also, Chicago doesn't have the Yankees or Boston's budget and the haven't won like St. Louis. Basically, they're about 6th or 7th in line, and that may be a generous placement. Not a good position to be in, as signing Giles will be quite an uphill battle.

 

Last time I checked, New York, Boston and St. Louis are not on the West Coast either.

 

All I hear are excuses at why the Cubs have no chance to sign Giles. Jesus, the season hasn't even started yet and I'm already sick of excuses (which I will get to hear from Dusty all year). None of which seem legitimate to me. They have the money, they have the need, they can be a contender. There is no excuse why they shouldn't pursue him unless for some bizarre reason, Giles specifically said he's not interested in the Cubs.

[BigbadB]

Gotta agree w/ Hoops. Chicago isn't Southern California and Giles grew up in SoCal and his family's still there, so another major strike against Chicago. Also, Chicago doesn't have the Yankees or Boston's budget and the haven't won like St. Louis. Basically, they're about 6th or 7th in line, and that may be a generous placement. Not a good position to be in, as signing Giles will be quite an uphill battle.

 

Pittsburgh isn't on the West Coast and that's where he signed his first big contract.

[XZero771679666304]

Gotta agree w/ Hoops. Chicago isn't Southern California and Giles grew up in SoCal and his family's still there, so another major strike against Chicago. Also, Chicago doesn't have the Yankees or Boston's budget and the haven't won like St. Louis. Basically, they're about 6th or 7th in line, and that may be a generous placement. Not a good position to be in, as signing Giles will be quite an uphill battle.

 

Pittsburgh isn't on the West Coast and that's where he signed his first big contract.

 

True, but he was younger. His career is at its tail end, and many players in his position want to:

 

A) Be near their families

 

B) Win ASAP

 

This seems to be a common theme among aging players, and the Cubs can offer him neither thing definitively.

 

 

Now this puts the Cubs at a big disadvantage. Giles is 35 and it seems he wants a 3-4 year deal. That is a legitimate reason to not want to spend a lot of time on him. Heck, I wouldn't sign him for more than 3 years. If the Cubs are already at a disadvantage and Giles wants more then Hendry wants to give him....

 

You can see why this probably isn't going to happen. And if Hendry can acquire another, younger OF with a .850+ OPS, I'm not sure it's worth the time either.

 

That's a big if, though.

 

But I'm not even remotely confident the Cubs could get him even if Hendry put the full press on him. If Hendry had preliminary contact and was told Giles didn't have any real interest in coming to Chicago, then I am fine with letting it go.

Edited November 17, 2005 by XZero77

[CubfaninCA]

Gotta agree w/ Hoops. Chicago isn't Southern California and Giles grew up in SoCal and his family's still there, so after major strike against Chicago. Also, Chicago doesn't have the Yankees or Boston's budget and the haven't won like St. Louis. Basically, they're about 6th or 7th in line, and that may be a generous placement. Not a good position to be in, as signing Giles will be quite an uphill battle.

 

Last time I checked, New York, Boston and St. Louis are not on the West Coast either.

 

All I hear are excuses at why the Cubs have no chance to sign Giles. Jesus, the season hasn't even started yet and I'm already sick of excuses (which I will get to hear from Dusty all year). None of which seem legitimate to me. They have the money, they have the need, they can be a contender. There is no excuse why they shouldn't pursue him unless for some bizarre reason, Giles specifically said he's not interested in the Cubs.

 

Shouldn't have to repeat myself, but seems you missed the point... Last time you checked, does the Trib spend as much as the Yankees or Boston? Last time you checked, have the Cubs won as much as St. Louis the past 2 years. The Cub organization may spend like a top tier franchise, but it isn't in the top tier. The organization is still view as a losing franchise.

[TheDude]

It seems pretty clear to me that if Hendry has a preference for mid-twenties guys he can lock-up to build around more than 35+ guys that are anything more than stop-gaps.

 

So now Giles is a stop-gap?

 

I have no doubt that Hendry's plan was to build around the young guys that are here now. But at some point in time when building, you have to put the roof on. Lee, Ramirez and (especially) Barrett is not enough. It's not a matter of building around Giles, it's a matter of filling out the rest of the lineup with the best possible candidate.

 

I didn't say Giles was a stop-gap. I said Hendry doesn't have a history of signing older players who are more than a stop-gap. I just do not see him handing a 4 year contract (which IMO is what it takes) to a 35 year old RF.

 

I am not anti-Giles. He is my first choice just like everybody else. I am simply saying that, in answering the thread's initial question, Hendry likely is using age and length of contract as reasons not to declare Giles as the prime target for the offseason. I form that opinion based upon his past decisions/moves, as we discussed.