Rumored trade proposal (Pierre to Cubs for Hill/Patterson)

[LuvChicagoSports]

please explain to me why everyone is so in love with Rich Hill.

 

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/555244

 

After looking at his career numbers I see problems with the amount of walks and a high ERA. Hill is a fine prospect, but he is seen with way too much value. I never understood the hype with him when he was first called up and he certainly didn't do anything that should excite anyone while in the big leagues. Maybe Pierre isn't the best possibility, but to make it out that Hill should get a great player back is a mistake.

[CubsWin]

Pierre is about to become Damon-like expensive and he won't be worth the cost. He would also block Pie. Lofton is a short term stop gap who can be platooned with Hairston. Equal OBP for a much lower cost, which in turn allows you to spend bigger on RF, SP and SS if that is your desire.

Precisely the reasons why I am all for going after Lofton.

 

Giles, Lofton, Nomar, bullpen help, bench help, starting pitching. In my mind, those are the targets in order of importance this off season.

[USSoccer]

Pierre is about to become Damon-like expensive and he won't be worth the cost. He would also block Pie. Lofton is a short term stop gap who can be platooned with Hairston. Equal OBP for a much lower cost, which in turn allows you to spend bigger on RF, SP and SS if that is your desire.

Precisely the reasons why I am all for going after Lofton.

 

Giles, Lofton, Nomar, bullpen help, bench help, starting pitching. In my mind, those are the targets in order of importance this off season.

 

To be fair, trading for Pierre does not block Pie. Pierre is a FA after 2006, so in all likelihood it keeps Pie in the minors in 2006 where he belongs (IMO)

[CubsWin]

please explain to me why everyone is so in love with Rich Hill.

 

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/players/playerpage/555244

 

After looking at his career numbers I see problems with the amount of walks and a high ERA. Hill is a fine prospect, but he is seen with way too much value. I never understood the hype with him when he was first called up and he certainly didn't do anything that should excite anyone while in the big leagues. Maybe Pierre isn't the best possibility, but to make it out that Hill should get a great player back is a mistake.

He has historically struggled with commanding his knee buckling curve ball and spotting his 90-mph fastball. But this season, he broke through in that area at AA and AAA. He always had the stuff, thus his selection in the 4th round out of Michigan, but he needed to gain the ability to hit his spots. He began to show mastery of that last year and basically dominated at every level except the majors.

 

Does he still have things to improve upon? Yes, but his potential is undeniable, and he is showing signs of reaching it. That is why so many here are "in love" with him.

[UK1679666180]

When the Cubs call up Pie next year, he'll have to had made some major improvements to be considered for leadoff at anytime in the near future.

[Exile on Waveland]

I'm in no way in favor of this trade. Pierre is overrated. I wouldn't be against having him in center, depending on what other moves are made and what the Cubs would have to give up, but he shouldn't be a huge target.

 

However, I find it extremely hard to believe that, all things being equal, a team with Pierre in center wouldn't be better than a team with Hairston in center. The proposed trade isn't worth the smallish upgrade, but it would be an upgrade, no doubt.

[CubsWin]

Pierre is about to become Damon-like expensive and he won't be worth the cost. He would also block Pie. Lofton is a short term stop gap who can be platooned with Hairston. Equal OBP for a much lower cost, which in turn allows you to spend bigger on RF, SP and SS if that is your desire.

Precisely the reasons why I am all for going after Lofton.

 

Giles, Lofton, Nomar, bullpen help, bench help, starting pitching. In my mind, those are the targets in order of importance this off season.

 

To be fair, trading for Pierre does not block Pie. Pierre is a FA after 2006, so in all likelihood it keeps Pie in the minors in 2006 where he belongs (IMO)

True, unless the Cubs resigned him after trading away Hill to get him. :wink:

 

But I agree. Pie and the Cubs would be best served by him staying in the minors until his plate discipline shows sizeable improvement.

[CubsWin]

When the Cubs call up Pie next year, he'll have to had made some major improvements to be considered for leadoff at anytime in the near future.

I hope you're right...

[UK1679666180]

It's an upgrade over what they had last year, still below avg. player overall. But, going to Pierre from CP/Hairston is less of an upgrade than trading for Michaels compared to if they traded for Pierre, even before factoring salaries.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Player A

 

2002: .268/.329/.376/.705

2003: .271/.353/.372/.725

2004: .303/.378/.397/.775

2005: .261/.336/.368/.704

 

Player B

 

2002: .287/.332/.343/.675

2003: .305/.361/.373/.734

2004: .326/.374/.407/.781

2005: .276/.326/.354/.680

 

Both are subpar defensive centerfielders. One is on our team, the other is Juan Pierre. Anyone think the difference between Hairston and Pierre is worth Rich Hill, nevermind Patterson?

 

Nicely done!

 

To compare Hairston to Pierre is ridiculous. Hairston has yet to have even a decent year while playing more than part time.

 

Player A

 

Avg. less than 80 games a year

 

Player B

 

Has avg. 150+ games a year

 

Also, please give your reasoning behind calling Pierre a subpar defensive CF.

 

From Espn scouting report :

" His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie.

 

Hardly sounds like a "subpar" defender.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/pierrju01.shtml

 

That's why Pierre is a subpar defender. The ESPN scouting reports are a joke, and using them Hairston could be considered above average too.

 

Whether or not Hairston gets hurt or not is irrelevant. They have startlingly similar production, yet no one is saying "Hairston would be the leadoff man we're looking for if he could just stay healthy".

[Exile on Waveland]

It's an upgrade over what they had last year, still below avg. player overall. But, going to Pierre from CP/Hairston is less of an upgrade than trading for Michaels compared to if they traded for Pierre, even before factoring salaries.

 

No arguments here. It's just that as much as I think Pierre is overrated, I know he's still better than Hairston. That was the extent of my point -- either way, forget Pierre and focus on Giles and RF (at least as target No. 1).

[UK1679666180]

I don't want them trading for Pierre either, not when there are better options out there.

[USSoccer]

It's an upgrade over what they had last year, still below avg. player overall. But, going to Pierre from CP/Hairston is less of an upgrade than trading for Michaels compared to if they traded for Pierre, even before factoring salaries.

 

No arguments here. It's just that as much as I think Pierre is overrated, I know he's still better than Hairston. That was the extent of my point -- either way, forget Pierre and focus on Giles and RF (at least as target No. 1).

 

Which is why if you replace Hill with a lesser pitcher, and make it Corey and Leicester for Pierre, it's a much better deal relative to what you are giving up.

[BigbadB]

Pierre is about to become Damon-like expensive and he won't be worth the cost. He would also block Pie. Lofton is a short term stop gap who can be platooned with Hairston. Equal OBP for a much lower cost, which in turn allows you to spend bigger on RF, SP and SS if that is your desire.

Precisely the reasons why I am all for going after Lofton.

 

Giles, Lofton, Nomar, bullpen help, bench help, starting pitching. In my mind, those are the targets in order of importance this off season.

 

To be fair, trading for Pierre does not block Pie. Pierre is a FA after 2006, so in all likelihood it keeps Pie in the minors in 2006 where he belongs (IMO)

 

Which makes trading a quality left handed pitching prospect (remember Dontrelle Willis and Andy Sisco) for a 1 year rental a bad idea. Especially when Kenny Lofton comes cheaper and won't cost any prospects.

 

Pie shouldn't be blocked, period. A shift to right or left wouldn't be a good idea, because he'll likely be +production for a CF, but minus production as a corner outfielder. CF'ers are hard to come by. You just don't move a blue chip prospect CFer to a corner if you don't have to.

[USSoccer]

I don't want them trading for Pierre either, not when there are better options out there.

 

It depends on what you are giving up, though. If Florida said they'd take Corey for Pierre, straight up, would you do the deal, knowing that Corey has little chance of success in Chicago and Pierre keeps Pie in the minors away from Dusty? You know I think Pierre's overrated, but will we do better for Corey?

 

Michaels is a better option, but could he be easily had? What would his player cost be?

 

Lofton is the cheaper option, and probably thr best if platooned with Hairston, but the Cubs didn't seem thrilled with Jerry this season.

 

Too many variables.

[USSoccer]

Pierre is about to become Damon-like expensive and he won't be worth the cost. He would also block Pie. Lofton is a short term stop gap who can be platooned with Hairston. Equal OBP for a much lower cost, which in turn allows you to spend bigger on RF, SP and SS if that is your desire.

Precisely the reasons why I am all for going after Lofton.

 

Giles, Lofton, Nomar, bullpen help, bench help, starting pitching. In my mind, those are the targets in order of importance this off season.

 

To be fair, trading for Pierre does not block Pie. Pierre is a FA after 2006, so in all likelihood it keeps Pie in the minors in 2006 where he belongs (IMO)

 

Which makes trading a quality left handed pitching prospect (remember Dontrelle Willis and Andy Sisco) for a 1 year rental a bad idea. Especially when Kenny Lofton comes cheaper and won't cost any prospects.

 

Pie shouldn't be blocked, period. A shift to right or left wouldn't be a good idea, because he'll likely be +production for a CF, but minus production as a corner outfielder. CF'ers are hard to come by. You just don't move a blue chip prospect CFer to a corner if you don't have to.

 

No, I agree, Hill is too steep a price to pay for a player like Pierre. If they want to take a rule 5 guy and Corey, I'd probably do it, but we could do better with Hill as a trading chip.

[CUBZ99]

Player A

 

2002: .268/.329/.376/.705

2003: .271/.353/.372/.725

2004: .303/.378/.397/.775

2005: .261/.336/.368/.704

 

Player B

 

2002: .287/.332/.343/.675

2003: .305/.361/.373/.734

2004: .326/.374/.407/.781

2005: .276/.326/.354/.680

 

Both are subpar defensive centerfielders. One is on our team, the other is Juan Pierre. Anyone think the difference between Hairston and Pierre is worth Rich Hill, nevermind Patterson?

 

Nicely done!

 

To compare Hairston to Pierre is ridiculous. Hairston has yet to have even a decent year while playing more than part time.

 

Player A

 

Avg. less than 80 games a year

 

Player B

 

Has avg. 150+ games a year

 

Also, please give your reasoning behind calling Pierre a subpar defensive CF.

 

From Espn scouting report :

" His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie.

 

Hardly sounds like a "subpar" defender.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/pierrju01.shtml

 

That's why Pierre is a subpar defender. The ESPN scouting reports are a joke, and using them Hairston could be considered above average too.

 

Whether or not Hairston gets hurt or not is irrelevant. They have startlingly similar production, yet no one is saying "Hairston would be the leadoff man we're looking for if he could just stay healthy".

 

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/pierrju01.shtml

 

That's why Pierre is a subpar defender. The ESPN scouting reports are a joke, and using them Hairston could be considered above average too.

 

Whether or not Hairston gets hurt or not is irrelevant. They have startlingly similar production, yet no one is saying "Hairston would be the leadoff man we're looking for if he could just stay healthy".

 

It is? So to you the ability of player B to stay healthy and produce at a higher rate than player A isn't worth anything? Have to disagree with you on that one.

 

Did you read the rest of my post? I'm comparing the rates of production between the two, which have an uncanny similarity. Why isn't anyone saying that Hairston is the answer to our leadoff woes if healthy? It's because he's not a good option, and neither is Pierre.

[CubfaninCA]

Player A

 

2002: .268/.329/.376/.705

2003: .271/.353/.372/.725

2004: .303/.378/.397/.775

2005: .261/.336/.368/.704

 

Player B

 

2002: .287/.332/.343/.675

2003: .305/.361/.373/.734

2004: .326/.374/.407/.781

2005: .276/.326/.354/.680

 

Both are subpar defensive centerfielders. One is on our team, the other is Juan Pierre. Anyone think the difference between Hairston and Pierre is worth Rich Hill, nevermind Patterson?

 

Nicely done!

 

To compare Hairston to Pierre is ridiculous. Hairston has yet to have even a decent year while playing more than part time.

 

Player A

 

Avg. less than 80 games a year

 

Player B

 

Has avg. 150+ games a year

 

Also, please give your reasoning behind calling Pierre a subpar defensive CF.

 

From Espn scouting report :

" His defense remains a huge plus at spacious Pro Player Stadium. His range allowed the Marlins to get by with Miguel Cabrera and Jeff Conine flanking him for the first four months. Pierre's arm probably precludes him from Gold Glove consideration, but he never gives up on balls in the gap and makes his share of highlight catches. His resemblance to a young Mickey Rivers remains eerie.

 

Hardly sounds like a "subpar" defender.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/dt/pierrju01.shtml

 

That's why Pierre is a subpar defender. The ESPN scouting reports are a joke, and using them Hairston could be considered above average too.

 

Whether or not Hairston gets hurt or not is irrelevant. They have startlingly similar production, yet no one is saying "Hairston would be the leadoff man we're looking for if he could just stay healthy".

 

Disregarding durability is a joke. Also, there's a 20 point difference in their career obp's and Pierre's a much bigger stolen base threat. Yes, he gets thrown out a little more than one wants, but he distracts a pitchers.

[UK1679666180]

I don't want them trading for Pierre either, not when there are better options out there.

 

It depends on what you are giving up, though. If Florida said they'd take Corey for Pierre, straight up, would you do the deal, knowing that Corey has little chance of success in Chicago and Pierre keeps Pie in the minors away from Dusty? You know I think Pierre's overrated, but will we do better for Corey?

 

Michaels is a better option, but could he be easily had? What would his player cost be?

 

Lofton is the cheaper option, and probably thr best if platooned with Hairston, but the Cubs didn't seem thrilled with Jerry this season.

 

Too many variables.

 

I'd trade CP for Pierre, I'd be disappointed with the upgrade, though b/c it isn't a significant upgrade and part of that salary difference copuld've gone towards Giles.

 

I consider Pierre to be of a last resort, similar to Burnitz, where they'd have to settle for below avg. production.

 

Philly is in an intersting situation, they have 2 1B, all-star quality players in LF and RF, '05 AAA MVP in CF (Victorino), Michaels, and Lofton wanting to return.

 

If they could bring back Lofton and platoon him with Victorino and get some players in return for Michaels, they should do it. Philly seems to undervalue him.

 

I think Hill and a prospect could get Michaels and he is a possibility of being had.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Disregarding durability is a joke. Also, there's a 20 point difference in their career obp's and Pierre's a much bigger stolen base threat. Yes, he gets thrown out a little more than one wants, but he distracts a pitchers.

 

Again, I'm talking rates of production. I posted the numbers already, they've been mirrors for the last 4 years, but if you want to use numbers from 5+ years back to show how dissimilar they've been, go for it. And no, the Pierre distracts pitchers theory has been debunked. It's simply not true.

[USSoccer]

I don't want them trading for Pierre either, not when there are better options out there.

 

It depends on what you are giving up, though. If Florida said they'd take Corey for Pierre, straight up, would you do the deal, knowing that Corey has little chance of success in Chicago and Pierre keeps Pie in the minors away from Dusty? You know I think Pierre's overrated, but will we do better for Corey?

 

Michaels is a better option, but could he be easily had? What would his player cost be?

 

Lofton is the cheaper option, and probably thr best if platooned with Hairston, but the Cubs didn't seem thrilled with Jerry this season.

 

Too many variables.

 

I'd trade CP for Pierre, I'd be disappointed with the upgrade, though b/c it isn't a significant upgrade and part of that salary difference copuld've gone towards Giles.

 

I consider Pierre to be of a last resort, similar to Burnitz, where they'd have to settle for below avg. production.

 

Philly is in an intersting situation, they have 2 1B, all-star quality players in LF and RF, '05 AAA MVP in CF (Victorino), Michaels, and Lofton wanting to return.

 

If they could bring back Lofton and platoon him with Victorino and get some players in return for Michaels, they should do it. Philly seems to undervalue him.

 

I think Hill and a prospect could get Michaels and he is a possibility of being had.

 

What is the salary difference between the two? It cannot be more than $2-3m.

 

Also, is Michaels the kind of player that would pique Hendry's interest?

[UK1679666180]

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/sports/12928234.htm

 

Scroll down to Centerfield.

 

Salary difference between which two players?

[CUBZ99]

Disregarding durability is a joke. Also, there's a 20 point difference in their career obp's and Pierre's a much bigger stolen base threat. Yes, he gets thrown out a little more than one wants, but he distracts a pitchers.

 

Again, I'm talking rates of production. I posted the numbers already, they've been mirrors for the last 4 years, but if you want to use numbers from 5+ years back to show how dissimilar they've been, go for it. And no, the Pierre distracts pitchers theory has been debunked. It's simply not true.

 

Posting the rate of production and making a comparison with a player that can't even stay healthy and has only played half as many games as the other player is meaningless. Also, as CubfaninCA pointed out there is a 20 pt difference in OBP which IMO would be the most important stat for a leadoff hitter. Pierre has shown an ability to get On base at a .355 clip. That has got to be worth something.

[UK1679666180]

I don't think he's the type of player that would pique his interest, he is a tough nosed player similar to Freel, but he doesn't have the speed that Hendry likes in his CF'ers.