Rothschild Stays, ENTIRE coaching staff to return

[goonys evil twin]

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I completely agree with you. Even during the brief times when they were healthy, they didn't play very well. Never did they look like a potentially great team, let alone one capable of winning 90 games.

[dalgreen]

I agree with you that I believe we make the playoffs if everyone had been healthy. Heck, I still think we would've made the playoffs had Wood and Prior been healthy

 

Nothing against you dal or anyone but I don't think the Cubs make the playoffs even if everyone was healthy. For two years injuries have been a convienient excuse for Hendry and crew. It is BS and smelly BS at that. Every team has injuries. But more to the point, the injuries the Cubs suffered were very predictable (aside from Prior). Even so, the everyday line up this club fielded was not good enough to consistently score runs. That is why we saw the prolonged loosing streaks. In another thread I did some calculations and in loosing streaks of over three games the Cubs scored @ 2.5 runs/game. That isn't going to win a lot of ball games. And this is while Neifi and Lee were having career years.

 

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I don't pretend to give Hendry or Baker or MacPhail a free pass. I have pretty routinely stated that I think taking a chance that everyone, especially those with histories of injuries, would be healthy was plain stupid. I do believe that we could've easily been 10-12 games better if everyone were healthy, particularly Wood and Prior. There were plenty of games where the game was over in the third inning simply because some starters didn't give keep us in the game. Then you add to the bullpen problems (some of it thanks to the manager)..... But I've already said Hendry better be looking into getting a solid utility guy because you should already assume ARam missing 20-25 games next season. I hated the construction of the team coming out of spring training. And I and others said everything would have to go right for the Cubs to make the playoffs, for starters no injuries.

[dalgreen]

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I completely agree with you. Even during the brief times when they were healthy, they didn't play very well. Never did they look like a potentially great team, let alone one capable of winning 90 games.

 

If Wood and Prior had each made 28 starts (big laugh I know), how many wins would you say the Cubs could've had?

[goonys evil twin]

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I completely agree with you. Even during the brief times when they were healthy, they didn't play very well. Never did they look like a potentially great team, let alone one capable of winning 90 games.

 

If Wood and Prior had each made 28 starts (big laugh I know), how many wins would you say the Cubs could've had?

 

Prior made 27.

 

I don't know. Maybe 85-88, maybe 90. But there's no guarantee. Regardless, this excuse making has to stop.

 

The Cubs failed. The GM failed, the coaches failed and the players failed. What ifs are worthless. There is no excuse for a top 5 payroll to not get you 95 wins in any of 3 seasons.

[Tim]

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I completely agree with you. Even during the brief times when they were healthy, they didn't play very well. Never did they look like a potentially great team, let alone one capable of winning 90 games.

 

If Wood and Prior had each made 28 starts (big laugh I know), how many wins would you say the Cubs could've had?

Especially if you assume that they pitched like this.

[TheDude]

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I completely agree with you. Even during the brief times when they were healthy, they didn't play very well. Never did they look like a potentially great team, let alone one capable of winning 90 games.

I thought the one week in baseball when all the horses started, July 8 - July 15, and the team won 5 games in a row, they looked like a playoff contending team.

 

That was the only time Prior, Zambrano, and Wood all were healthy together.

[USSoccer]

I think MacPhail, Hendry, Dusty, and a number of writiers and fans agree with your position. I however, do not. This Cub team was very medicore comming out of ST and they played that way the entire year. It is a shame b/c I think they will not change the formula one bit and produce similar results next year. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

I completely agree with you. Even during the brief times when they were healthy, they didn't play very well. Never did they look like a potentially great team, let alone one capable of winning 90 games.

I thought the one week in baseball when all the horses started, July 8 - July 15, and the team won 5 games in a row, they looked like a playoff contending team.

 

That was the only time Prior, Zambrano, and Wood all were healthy together.

 

I think that was also the only time in which our entire rotation was healthy at the same time since 2003.

[Andy]

For two years injuries have been a convienient excuse for Hendry and crew. It is BS and smelly BS at that. Every team has injuries. But more to the point, the injuries the Cubs suffered were very predictable (aside from Prior).

I disagree. We had three pitchers get injured by line drives this year (Borowski, Fox, Prior). Did the other 29 teams combined have three pitchers miss time because of line drives? The only one I can think of is Halladay. (Clement doesn't count, he didn't miss any time.)

 

Injuries may have been a convenient excuse, but there's a reason it is convenient. I doubt anyone can deny the Cubs have been the most injured team in baseball the last two seasons. In that span we have seen every important player on the team except for Zambrano, Lee, and (2004) Alou spend time (often significant time) on the DL. Just off the top of my head: Borowski, Wood, Prior, Sosa, Ramirez, Nomar, Walker have all missed sinificant time over the last two years in Cub uniforms. I don't disagree that the Cubs make too many excuses for their failures, but the injury argument is entirely valid in this case.

[goonys evil twin]

Oh great, the Tribune already has people buying the "it was just bad luck" line.

 

 

Let's all look forward to an offseason full of stagnation and chemistry class, then everything will be perfect next season.

 

 

 

Dusty's influence has been pervasive.

[YearofDaCubs]

IF we want to make the playoffs we have to do the following:

 

Improve fundamentals and defense.

 

Less Ks, more OBP.

 

Our 1-2 should have legitimate players there, not Corey, Neifi, Macias.

 

Improved OF. I dont know if its true or not but I'm pretty sure we might have the worst OF in baseball. Murton in LF, but we need improvements in CF and RF

 

I would like to see one more SP.

 

We need to improve our RP by a bit. I like Williamson and if he can come back to form we will be good, but I would like to see us go after one more good veteran RP.

 

Bench..we need to revamp our bench and fill it up with people that can actually hit coming off the bench. Macias in pinch hitting situations had an AVG in the .100s that is not even close to acceptable as your primary bench player. Neifi thinks he can be a starter for someone, well do us a favor and leave. Our bench players also need to minimize on the double-plays.

 

I would like to see Nomar back but his defense concerns me as much as his injury history.

 

I'm not saying improving these categories are going to be easy for Hendry but you know what he put us in this mess and it's time for him to really step it up and improve the team unlike last year.

[CuseCubFan69]

Oh great, the Tribune already has people buying the "it was just bad luck" line.

 

 

Let's all look forward to an offseason full of stagnation and chemistry class, then everything will be perfect next season.

 

 

 

Dusty's influence has been pervasive.

 

The 2006 theme:

 

"Hook, Line and Sinker"

[dalgreen]

Oh great, the Tribune already has people buying the "it was just bad luck" line.

 

 

Let's all look forward to an offseason full of stagnation and chemistry class, then everything will be perfect next season.

 

 

 

Dusty's influence has been pervasive.

 

I think most everyone is saying 2005 was a failure because of a bad team with bad luck, to me, in that order. What's wrong with that? At least for me, I do think even with the injuries to Nomar, Walker and ARam, if Wood and Prior had been healthy all year we would've made the playoffs. Do I, or would I, ever plan on them having a full healthy season? No way. As many said prior to the 2005 season, if the Cubs could have everything go right, they should be in the playoffs. Very little went right, therefore they're watching the playoffs like we are. I don't think anyone is saying it was only bad luck that we didn't make the playoffs. Wood and ARam getting hurt is no longer bad luck but pretty much the expected. So I really don't see how anyone (other than maybe Hendry) could just sit on their hands this offseason.

[dalgreen]

The 2006 theme:

 

"Hook, Line and Sinker"

 

If no moves are made I'd call it, "Hook, Line and Stinker."

[Tim]

Oh great, the Tribune already has people buying the "it was just bad luck" line.

 

 

Let's all look forward to an offseason full of stagnation and chemistry class, then everything will be perfect next season.

 

 

 

Dusty's influence has been pervasive.

Who, exactly, in this thread has been saying that "it was just bad luck"?

 

BK has made an argument that the team isn't as bad as their record (or even run differential) would indicate, but I hardly think he's proposing that means that the team can just sit back and do nothing this offseason.

 

Or is it someone else you are responding to?

[goonys evil twin]

Oh great, the Tribune already has people buying the "it was just bad luck" line.

 

 

Let's all look forward to an offseason full of stagnation and chemistry class, then everything will be perfect next season.

 

 

 

Dusty's influence has been pervasive.

Who, exactly, in this thread has been saying that "it was just bad luck"?

 

BK has made an argument that the team isn't as bad as their record (or even run differential) would indicate, but I hardly think he's proposing that means that the team can just sit back and do nothing this offseason.

 

Or is it someone else you are responding to?

 

I've seen several people blame injuries for this team not making the playoffs this year.

 

That's laughable to me. They were predictably mediocre with no OF production. They fell apart in 2004 and downgraded their talent level in 2005. Why anybody wants to follow the Dusty Baker excusometer is beyond me.

 

What is so hard in admitting this wasn't a good team? No excuses.

[Tim]

Oh great, the Tribune already has people buying the "it was just bad luck" line.

 

 

Let's all look forward to an offseason full of stagnation and chemistry class, then everything will be perfect next season.

 

 

 

Dusty's influence has been pervasive.

Who, exactly, in this thread has been saying that "it was just bad luck"?

 

BK has made an argument that the team isn't as bad as their record (or even run differential) would indicate, but I hardly think he's proposing that means that the team can just sit back and do nothing this offseason.

 

Or is it someone else you are responding to?

 

I've seen several people blame injuries for this team not making the playoffs this year.

 

That's laughable to me. They were predictably mediocre with no OF production. They fell apart in 2004 and downgraded their talent level in 2005. Why anybody wants to follow the Dusty Baker excusometer is beyond me.

 

What is so hard in admitting this wasn't a good team? No excuses.

So you don't think the Cubs would have scored enough extra runs with:

 

• 58 extra games from Walker
  
• 96 extra games from Nomar
  
• 35 extra games from Aramis
  
• 100 fewer games from Neifi
  
• 50 fewer games from Macias

 

or prevented enough extra runs with:

 

• 5 extra starts from Prior (and fewer banged up starts)
  
• 20 extra starts from Wood
  
• 7 fewer starts from Mitre
  
• 6 fewer starts from Dempster
  
• 8 fewer starts from Leicester/Koronka/Hill

 

to have made up 10 games in the standings?

 

 

It may have been poor planning from day 1 to count on all those guys to be healthy this year. But I also think it's perfectly fair to say that those players would have given the Cubs an excellent chance of making the playoffs if they had been available the entire season.

[goonys evil twin]

It may have been poor planning from day 1 to count on all those guys to be healthy this year. But I also think it's perfectly fair to say that those players would have given the Cubs an excellent chance of making the playoffs if they had been available the entire season.

 

I don't.

 

I think it's completely bogus to play the what if game.

 

Take any team and add back all their lost days from their best players and they should be better. But who knows? Regardless, it's a pointless exercise. It's the same thought process that caused Hendry to completely lay an egg last offseason, and quite frankly it bothers me that so many fans are willing to go the same route, passively excusing the failure as something that could not have been prevented. We heard about the injury talk all season. It's a weak excuse, always has been, always will be. Why can't people get beyond that and admit this wasn't a good team?

 

Erase every single good player's injury and this team might have been good enough to contend for the wild card. Big deal.

 

The Cubs failed guys. They didn't step on a crack and break their mother's back. They didn't spill the salt, assault a goat or insult the Babe. They failed. The GM failed to put together a great team despite a great payroll. The coaches failed to get the most out of the players and the players failed to play well enough to win enough games. Why are people trying to overcomplicate things with excuses and what ifs? The next thing you know they will be trotting out Murton, Wilson, Burnitz in the OF next season, and people will start justifying those moves, just like they justified last year's moves, as the team just needing to be healthy and tweak the roster to contend next season.

 

I may be crazy in thinking that if enough people make enough noise about the Cubs needing to make the right moves, that one of these days they might actually do something right. But when people keep spouting off the company line that it was injuries that prevented glory this season, I get the bad feeling that Dusty's claws are deeper into this organization than I used to think.

[CubinNY]

Tim and others. This "what if" game is a sucker's game. The fact is that the Cubs didn't stay healthy and that is all that matters. But I cannot prove my case and neither can anyone else prove the contrary. So it's all moot. I'd rather the Cubs not rely on the formula they used the past couple of years. But as long as they believe it was injuries that caused the problems I at least hope they do a better job fieldling a team that can consistently score runs.

[Tim]

It may have been poor planning from day 1 to count on all those guys to be healthy this year. But I also think it's perfectly fair to say that those players would have given the Cubs an excellent chance of making the playoffs if they had been available the entire season.

 

I don't.

 

I think it's completely bogus to play the what if game.

 

Take any team and add back all their lost days from their best players and they should be better. But who knows? Regardless, it's a pointless exercise. It's the same thought process that caused Hendry to completely lay an egg last offseason, and quite frankly it bothers me that so many fans are willing to go the same route, passively excusing the failure as something that could not have been prevented. We heard about the injury talk all season. It's a weak excuse, always has been, always will be. Why can't people get beyond that and admit this wasn't a good team?

 

Erase every single good player's injury and this team might have been good enough to contend for the wild card. Big deal.

 

The Cubs failed guys. They didn't step on a crack and break their mother's back. They didn't spill the salt, assault a goat or insult the Babe. They failed. The GM failed to put together a great team despite a great payroll. The coaches failed to get the most out of the players and the players failed to play well enough to win enough games. Why are people trying to overcomplicate things with excuses and what ifs? The next thing you know they will be trotting out Murton, Wilson, Burnitz in the OF next season, and people will start justifying those moves, just like they justified last year's moves, as the team just needing to be healthy and tweak the roster to contend next season.

 

I may be crazy in thinking that if enough people make enough noise about the Cubs needing to make the right moves, that one of these days they might actually do something right. But when people keep spouting off the company line that it was injuries that prevented glory this season, I get the bad feeling that Dusty's claws are deeper into this organization than I used to think.

I just think you're unfairly characterizing what people are saying. I know I've certainly been one of the earliest, loudest and most consistent voices here that the Cubs need to overpay for Giles, even if it means adding a fourth year. That the Cubs shouldn't stop there and find another solid OBP bat to put in place of Corey (but NOT Lofton). That they should acquire another top flight arm because they just can't count on the ones they have staying healthy. That they need to get one more shutdown arm in the pen.

 

I don't think it's fair to say that I'm buying the company line or making excuses for the 2005 Cubs. I want change. I recognize the weaknesses that this season exposed for this team and want them addressed. But I don't feel the need to put down the people who aren't whining, bitching and moaning with every single post they make.

 

But that's just me.

[Tim]

Tim and others. This "what if" game is a sucker's game. The fact is that the Cubs didn't stay healthy and that is all that matters. But I cannot prove my case and neither can anyone else prove the contrary. So it's all moot. I'd rather the Cubs not rely on the formula they used the past couple of years. But as long as they believe it was injuries that caused the problems I at least hope they do a better job fieldling a team that can consistently score runs.

I think it is an important game to play when figuring out what needs to be done for 2006. I think it is a very fair question to ask, "What if Walker had been able to play in 150 games this past season as he has throughout most of his career?" In order to figure out what to do for the coming season, the Cubs need to determine the true talent level of the people they have under their control. If injuries for a player can be expected (say, from ARam), then that needs to be factored into the strategy. But if injuries were a fluke, then that needs to be accounted for, as well.

 

You don't forecast what is going to happen off raw data. You make adjustments to the historic data for other causal factors, then forecast from the adjusted figures.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I'm curious just how many games poor lineups cost us in relation to our poor pitching. I think our bad pitching this season gets lost with the bad offense. Baseball people are always talking about records in one-run games. But I'd be interested to know our record in three, four, and five run games. I believe we had a losing record in two-run games. So, we know the lineups made out have been horrendous, but did the lack of pitching make the lineups look worse?

 

Team record by run differential

                        W    L     pct
1.                     26   20   0.565
2.                     13   17   0.433
3.                     11   15   0.423
4.                     11    9   0.550
5.                      4    9   0.308
6.                      4    5   0.444
7.                      4    4   0.500
8.                      1    2   0.333
9.                      1    0   1.000
10.                      2    2   0.500
11.                      1    0   1.000
12.                      0    0   0.000
13.                      0    0   0.000
14.                      1    0   1.000

Totals                  79   83   0.488

[Tim]

UK - you asked for my impressions on Price, I'm gonig to return the favor. What do you think about Rothschild as a pitching coach and who is available that you would have dumped him for?

[UK1679666180]

UK - you asked for my impressions on Price, I'm gonig to return the favor. What do you think about Rothschild as a pitching coach and who is available that you would have dumped him for?

 

I think he is one of the better ones out there, I think his speciality is his able to create or refine a plus breaking pitch (slider).

 

I have no problem with him coming back either, although, I think would Price be more successful than Rothschild. I think his approach towards pitching is more suited for a team that struggles with control than Rothschild.

 

I should also mention that Price has had a successful record of bringing up minor leaguers and having them be successful at the majors.

 

Price has his flaws, I've criticized Rothschild for not speaking out more when Zambrano throws 120+ in a game already decided, Price has been part of some M's teams that did likewise under various managers. But, he does deserve credit for reducing the workload under Lou, something that was difficult to do.

 

I think he'll be better at fixing mechanics than Rothschild. Wood is the obvious example of futility as far as mechanics, but I'd rather focus on Zambrano and his lack of a follow-thru.

 

I feel Price is better at correcting mechanical flaws than Rothschild.

 

If you gave me my choice, I'd rather have Price.

Edited October 14, 2005 by UK

[bc2k]

I'm still waiting for Oscar Acosta to come back. :(

[Careless]

UK - you asked for my impressions on Price, I'm gonig to return the favor. What do you think about Rothschild as a pitching coach and who is available that you would have dumped him for?

 

I think he is one of the better ones out there, I think his speciality is his able to create or refine a plus breaking pitch (slider).

 

I have no problem with him coming back either, although, I think would Price be more successful than Rothschild. I think his approach towards pitching is more suited for a team that struggles with control than Rothschild.

 

I should also mention that Price has had a successful record of bringing up minor leaguers and having them be successful at the majors.

 

Price has his flaws, I've criticized Rothschild for not speaking out more when Zambrano throws 120+ in a game already decided, Price has been part of some M's teams that did likewise under various managers. But, he does deserve credit for reducing the workload under Lou, something that was difficult to do.

 

I think he'll be better at fixing mechanics than Rothschild. Wood is the obvious example of futility as far as mechanics, but I'd rather focus on Zambrano and his lack of a follow-thru.

 

I feel Price is better at correcting mechanical flaws than Rothschild.

 

If you gave me my choice, I'd rather have Price.

I'm gonna hunt you down and make you fix my mechanics :wink: