How good is Barry Bonds, exactly?

[TheDude]

In addition, if Bonds doesn't take steroids for the last 5 years, there is no way his body continues to hold up beyond 40 years of age. The fact is all hitters get smarter with experience, but often the body begans to fail. IMO, his body didn't fail as quickly because of the steroids. As such, he has had an advantage over Hank Aaron and other hall of famers who became smarter hitters, but their body wasn't as willing in their later years.

This is the only thing Steriods might have done to improve Barry Bonds' game. Durability.

 

If he took steriods, as he likely did, they impacted his game minimally outside durability.

 

There is no denying he is the best hitter in baseball, and maybe the best hitter ever.

[abuck1220]

The question to me is...

 

How did Bonds have the quickest bat in MLB long before his HR totals shoot thru the roof as well as the re-definition of his bodt?

 

He's always used a bat shorter and lighter than the normal ones used by sluggers, and still chokes up on it. Amazingly fast bat speed + unbelivable pitch recognition = best hitter of our era.

 

if steroids didn't help him, then why did he take them? from some of you guys' analysis, you make it seem they're totally irrelevant to his success. he must have felt they were doing some good.

[abuck1220]

In addition, if Bonds doesn't take steroids for the last 5 years, there is no way his body continues to hold up beyond 40 years of age. The fact is all hitters get smarter with experience, but often the body begans to fail. IMO, his body didn't fail as quickly because of the steroids. As such, he has had an advantage over Hank Aaron and other hall of famers who became smarter hitters, but their body wasn't as willing in their later years.

This is the only thing Steriods might have done to improve Barry Bonds' game. Durability.

 

If he took steriods, as he likely did, they impacted his game minimally outside durability.

 

There is no denying he is the best hitter in baseball, and maybe the best hitter ever.

 

but his durability is what will help him break some of the most important records in baseball history. how the hell is that a minimal impact?? i'd say it's the impact.

[TB_11]

The question to me is...

 

How did Bonds have the quickest bat in MLB long before his HR totals shoot thru the roof as well as the re-definition of his bodt?

 

He's always used a bat shorter and lighter than the normal ones used by sluggers, and still chokes up on it. Amazingly fast bat speed + unbelivable pitch recognition = best hitter of our era.

 

if steroids didn't help him, then why did he take them? from some of you guys' analysis, you make it seem they're totally irrelevant to his success. he must have felt they were doing some good.

 

I wouldn't say their irrevelant to his success, but they haven't been the main contributors to why he's such a good hitter. In regards to his skills as a hitter, his pitch recognition is the most important factor, IMHO.

 

I'm speculating here, but my guess is he took steroids so he could play well when he was 40, not so he could hit a ball 480 feet instead of 460 feet.

[CuseCubFan69]

OK...when was Bonds introduced to Conte? Because I do not remember him hitting 40 or more HR's until he met this guy.

[fromthestretch]

The question to me is...

 

How did Bonds have the quickest bat in MLB long before his HR totals shoot thru the roof as well as the re-definition of his bodt?

 

He's always used a bat shorter and lighter than the normal ones used by sluggers, and still chokes up on it. Amazingly fast bat speed + unbelivable pitch recognition = best hitter of our era.

 

if steroids didn't help him, then why did he take them? from some of you guys' analysis, you make it seem they're totally irrelevant to his success. he must have felt they were doing some good.

 

I'm not sure this is the best argument to make. Some players cork bats because they think it helps, despite the fact that it really doesn't help. I'm not saying steroids don't help. Just pointing out that a player might do something because they think it will give them an advantage, whether it actually does or not.

 

I do agree that steroids have probably been most beneficial to Bonds by allowing him to stay in peak physical condition at a point in his career where his body most likely wouldn't be able to handle the physical strain of a 162-game season. However, I have heard that he does work his butt off in the offseason to stay in shape. Of course, the steroids just add to that.

[Careless]

In addition, if Bonds doesn't take steroids for the last 5 years, there is no way his body continues to hold up beyond 40 years of age. The fact is all hitters get smarter with experience, but often the body begans to fail. IMO, his body didn't fail as quickly because of the steroids. As such, he has had an advantage over Hank Aaron and other hall of famers who became smarter hitters, but their body wasn't as willing in their later years.

This is the only thing Steriods might have done to improve Barry Bonds' game. Durability.

 

If he took steriods, as he likely did, they impacted his game minimally outside durability.

 

There is no denying he is the best hitter in baseball, and maybe the best hitter ever.

Yeah, everyone wishes they were more durable so they could double their annual HR totals

[fromthestretch]

OK...when was Bonds introduced to Conte? Because I do not remember him hitting 40 or more HR's until he met this guy.

 

Not sure, but his first 40+ homer season was in 1993...his first year in San Fran (539 at-bats).

 

Edited to add: His previous career high was 34 the season before that in Pittsburgh. He did that in only 473 at-bats (only 140 games).

 

The one constant in his career is a very high number of walks. He had his first 100-walk season in 1991 at age 26. He had 93 walks in each of the previous two seasons. If anything, he's shown throughout his career (pre and post Conte, depending on when you think he started using steroids) that he will wait for his pitch.

Edited September 22, 2005 by grassbass

[katway]

According to Bond's mistress of 9 years, Kimberly Bell (who also testified to this in grand jury testimony), Bonds told her about his steroid use between the 1999 and 2000 offseason. He apparently told her that he was using the steroids to help him recover quicker from his injuries.

 

She also described some of the changes in Bonds' physique. "Some of the changes included everything from acne on his back to a great deal of bloating, that he was very concerned about that other people would notice."

 

Just so happens, from 2000 to 2004 he hits 49, 73, 46, 45, and 45 HRs...

[fromthestretch]

OK...when was Bonds introduced to Conte? Because I do not remember him hitting 40 or more HR's until he met this guy.

 

Not sure, but his first 40+ homer season was in 1993...his first year in San Fran (539 at-bats).

 

Edited to add: His previous career high was 34 the season before that in Pittsburgh. He did that in only 473 at-bats (only 140 games).

 

The one constant in his career is a very high number of walks. He had his first 100-walk season in 1991 at age 26. He had 93 walks in each of the previous two seasons. If anything, he's shown throughout his career (pre and post Conte, depending on when you think he started using steroids) that he will wait for his pitch.

 

Looking at his 1994 season, he was on pace for 49-50 homers that season. He had 391 at-bats in 112 games...nearly 3.5 at-bats per game (3.49 to be exact). If he plays 150 games that year (which of course wouldn't have been possible due to the strike), he would have had 523 at-bats. If my math is correct, that put him on pace for 49-50 homers.

[abuck1220]

The question to me is...

 

How did Bonds have the quickest bat in MLB long before his HR totals shoot thru the roof as well as the re-definition of his bodt?

 

He's always used a bat shorter and lighter than the normal ones used by sluggers, and still chokes up on it. Amazingly fast bat speed + unbelivable pitch recognition = best hitter of our era.

 

if steroids didn't help him, then why did he take them? from some of you guys' analysis, you make it seem they're totally irrelevant to his success. he must have felt they were doing some good.

 

I'm not sure this is the best argument to make. Some players cork bats because they think it helps, despite the fact that it really doesn't help. I'm not saying steroids don't help. Just pointing out that a player might do something because they think it will give them an advantage, whether it actually does or not.

 

I do agree that steroids have probably been most beneficial to Bonds by allowing him to stay in peak physical condition at a point in his career where his body most likely wouldn't be able to handle the physical strain of a 162-game season. However, I have heard that he does work his butt off in the offseason to stay in shape. Of course, the steroids just add to that.

 

yeah, but he must have felt that they were helping him if he continued to take them.

 

i don't doubt bonds' great eye or lightning quick bat...he's always had those. but i'm not about to just discount his steroid use because he has a good eye at the plate. steroids helped him, he realized that they helped him, and he continued to use them.

 

he probably would be a great hitter w/o steroids, but there's no doubt in my mind that he was made better by steroids. his size jumped, his #'s jumped, and he used them for multiple years...that's all the proof i need to know that he was aided by steroids.

[UK1679666180]

he probably would be a great hitter w/o steroids, but there's no doubt in my mind that he was made better by steroids. his size jumped, his #'s jumped, and he used them for multiple years...that's all the proof i need to know that he was aided by steroids.

 

He was a great hitter before the spike in numbers. They helped him, there's no doubt.

 

But, he had the best bat speed before the spike in numbers, similar to Griffey.

 

I'm not going to ignore what he's done.

 

He went from a great hitter to the greatest hitter, he was still a great hitter.

[Proven Veteran]

In addition, if Bonds doesn't take steroids for the last 5 years, there is no way his body continues to hold up beyond 40 years of age.

 

So what illegal supplements do you think Nolan Ryan was on? No way his body holds up for an average of 200+ innings/year for 6 years age 40-45, right?

 

 

 

To be the barroid equivelant, Ryan would have had to go 25-3 / 1.43 / 380 Ks per year and 4 win Cy Youngs those last few years.

 

Like Clemens?

[abuck1220]

he probably would be a great hitter w/o steroids, but there's no doubt in my mind that he was made better by steroids. his size jumped, his #'s jumped, and he used them for multiple years...that's all the proof i need to know that he was aided by steroids.

 

He was a great hitter before the spike in numbers. They helped him, there's no doubt.

 

But, he had the best bat speed before the spike in numbers, similar to Griffey.

 

I'm not going to ignore what he's done.

 

He went from a great hitter to the greatest hitter, he was still a great hitter.

 

i agree...but i'm not willing to give a cheater the benefit of the doubt when trying to figure out his non-roid numbers. instead of trying to speculate as to what day he started taking steroids and judge his career by saying 'well, what did he do before steroids?' or 'just how many homeruns did steroids add to his career total?' i just consider him to be a cheater.

[CuseCubFan69]

he probably would be a great hitter w/o steroids, but there's no doubt in my mind that he was made better by steroids. his size jumped, his #'s jumped, and he used them for multiple years...that's all the proof i need to know that he was aided by steroids.

 

He was a great hitter before the spike in numbers. They helped him, there's no doubt.

 

But, he had the best bat speed before the spike in numbers, similar to Griffey.

 

I'm not going to ignore what he's done.

 

He went from a great hitter to the greatest hitter, he was still a great hitter.

 

i agree...but i'm not willing to give a cheater the benefit of the doubt when trying to figure out his non-roid numbers. instead of trying to speculate as to what day he started taking steroids and judge his career by saying 'well, what did he do before steroids?' or 'just how many homeruns did steroids add to his career total?' i just consider him to be a cheater.

 

I agree and I was just looking to see if the spike were artificially done but it doesn't matter as he is a cheater and knew exactly what he was doing.

[Derwood]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

[abuck1220]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

[Derwood]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

[OleMissCub]

Greatest Hitters?

 

1. Splendid Splinter

2. Cobb

3. Babe

4. Barroid

5. Gehrig

 

Honorable mention--Speaker, Hornsby, Musial, Lajoie and Gwynn

 

Mine would be

1) Williams (barely edges Cobb on account of his power storke, however, Cobb supposedly didn't like hitting homers because he thought the game was made lazy by them. He did hit 5 homers in a row once to prove to reporters that he did have a power game...but on stats alone I give williams the edge because of his obvious power numbers combined with avg.

2) Cobb (.366 lifetime BA, nuff said. Best pure hitter ever IMO)

3) Ruth (well....he's the great bambino)

4) Tris Speaker ( dude had 792 doubles...c'mon)

5) Gehrig (guy was an RBI machine, ranks 4th all time in RBI despite his shortened career.)

 

I have omitted Bonds from any discussion of greatest hitters of all time because A) He's a cheater B) his lifetime BA is only .300 which doesnt' hold a candle to any of the aforementioned gentleman who all have lifetime batting averages of over .340

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I wonder what Bonds's career OPS+ is if you remove 2001-2005. Eyeballing it it looks like it drops him to the bottom of the top-10 Career OPS+, with Cobb, Foxx, and McGwire.

[CuseCubFan69]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

 

He admitted taking them. He said he just didn't know they were steroids. He was told it was magic pixie dust.

[Derwood]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

if he took them. Which hasn't been proven. Innocent until proven guilty

 

He admitted taking them. He said he just didn't know they were steroids. He was told it was magic pixie dust.

 

Was this part of the leaked testimony? I honestly don't remember.

[JC]

I agree with Abuck.

[fromthestretch]

Despite the mountain of evidence that seemingly links him with steroids, he still hasn't tested positive.

 

Additionally, steroids weren't illegal in baseball until the 2003 season. If people want to get all "asterisky" about his numbers, you'll have to keep the single season HR record intact, as that happened before he broke any rules (by the MLB rulebook's standards)

 

stabbing the first base ump and urinating on the mascot isn't illegal under baseball rules either...but you can't do either of those things. steroids are illegal (by america rule book standards), and they gave him an unfair advantage over other players.

 

he probably would have been a HOFer w/o the steroids, but we can never know for sure.

 

I posted this awhile back. Gives a little more info as to what is and isn't exactly legal regarding steroids. This was found on baseballmusings.com.

 

Use of controlled substances is not a federal crime. The DOJ has no jurisdiction over it. Federal law enforcement has jurisdiction over possession and trafficking but not use. In fact, check the state laws on illegal drugs and I think you'll find that most -- if not all -- do not criminalize use. In the states, possession for personal use is such a low level misdemeanor that prosecution of an even smaller offense -- use -- wouldn't be worth the resources (and it might meet with very stiff public resistance).

 

There is an argument that if one used drugs then one necessarily possessed them, if not in hand then at least in the body, at least for a short period. In a legal sense that's a weak argument, but the argument has been made. But let's assume the theory is good enough to bring use under the jurisdiction of the federal courts. No US Attorney's office would pursue such a case. The amount involved would be so small as to be de minimus, and even if the case was proved it would be a very low level misdemeanor. It's simply not worth the resources, even if you can sustain the legal argument. States feel the same way. (Note: the feds do have jurisdiction over drug use if it occurs in a federal context, e.g., an airport or in the military. Airport cases are referred to the states. The military is unique for reasons that are probably obvious and the military keeps jurisdiction over drug use cases.)

 

Edit: According to Baseball Musings, that was from "A trial attorney with extensive experience in federal and state courts as both prosecutor and defense counsel."

[abuck1220]

I agree with Abuck.

 

you may as well just make that your sig. i'm right about pretty much everything.