Deal for Soriano or Dunn close?

[ThePenguin11]

OBP gets cancelled out by the fact that he still scores 100+ runs and drives in 100+ runs. The whole reason sabermetricians use that is so they can quantify that a player will still be useful even if he's not a basher or a big hitter. It gives better value for guys who can't make good contact.

 

I love the OBP statistic, BUT IT HAS NO USE HERE. Soriano has proved that he can score a ton of runs and knock them in just as easily. Don't misuse the OBP stat.

 

EDIT: Think about it if he was a better OBP guy then he'd score 135 runs every year. So what, 112 runs isn't enough? That's what he's on pace for. He scored 124 runs a few years ago because what he lacks in walks he makes up for in extra base hits and speed.

Edited July 29, 2005 by ThePenguin11

[SCCubbieFAN]

With all this talk about the Mets being interested in Soriano too, I'm suddenly envisioning a major coup by Hendry acquiring not only Soriano but also either Cliff Floyd or Mike Cameron. With the acquision of Gerut and the emergence of Murton, the Cubs suddenly have a surplus of outfielders as well as pitching to deal from. The Mets are one of those bubble teams still trying to figure out if they are going to go for it or work on the future. They are close enough to the WC that I beleive they will go for it and in doing so could make a desperation move or two. OK guys, you figure the deals to bring both Soriano and either Floyd or Cameron to the Cubs. And if you can find a reliever too, do it.

[CubinNY]

Miles on possible trade for Soriano:

 

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/cubs.asp?id=78065

 

Kiley:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-cub29.html

 

According to Bruce, the Cubs talked to Anaheim about Corey - and he speculates that there could be a three-way with the Mets and Rangers involving Floyd.

 

Right. I dont think Soriano suits up for the Cubs. Cliff Floyd is having a monster year and Hendry has already tried a couple of times to get him. And if we know anything about Hendry it is that he gets his man (much in the same way the paper boy in Better of Dead got his $5.00).

 

I think Hendry flips Soriano, who both Randolph and Omar have nocturnal emissions over, for Floyd. That makes a little more sense to me. Soriano refused to go to the outfiled with the Yankees and Rangers I don't know why he would do it for the Cubs.

[AAApittsburgh]

OBP gets cancelled out by the fact that he still scores 100+ runs and drives in 100+ runs. The whole reason sabermetricians use that is so they can quantify that a player will still be useful even if he's not a basher or a big hitter. It gives better value for guys who can't make good contact.

 

I love the OBP statistic, BUT IT HAS NO USE HERE. Soriano has proved that he can score a ton of runs and knock them in just as easily. Don't misuse the OBP stat.

 

EDIT: Think about it if he was a better OBP guy then he'd score 135 runs every year. So what, 112 runs isn't enough? That's what he's on pace for. He scored 124 runs a few years ago because what he lacks in walks he makes up for in extra base hits and speed.

Perhaps you should check his road splits. He has 7 HR on the road. His line is .240/.276/.401/.677. He's another hacker. Cubs hitters lack plate patience, and he just adds to the problem. I really don't think this guy is a difference maker. I'm sure Hendry/Baker will love him though.

[ThePenguin11]

OBP gets cancelled out by the fact that he still scores 100+ runs and drives in 100+ runs. The whole reason sabermetricians use that is so they can quantify that a player will still be useful even if he's not a basher or a big hitter. It gives better value for guys who can't make good contact.

 

I love the OBP statistic, BUT IT HAS NO USE HERE. Soriano has proved that he can score a ton of runs and knock them in just as easily. Don't misuse the OBP stat.

 

EDIT: Think about it if he was a better OBP guy then he'd score 135 runs every year. So what, 112 runs isn't enough? That's what he's on pace for. He scored 124 runs a few years ago because what he lacks in walks he makes up for in extra base hits and speed.

Perhaps you should check his road splits. He has 7 HR on the road. His line is .240/.276/.401/.677. He's another hacker. Cubs hitters lack plate patience, and he just adds to the problem. I really don't think this guy is a difference maker. I'm sure Hendry/Baker will love him though.

 

Perhaps I should refer you to my "I think home/road splits are over-rated post:

 

I think home/road splits are a little overrated. Sure the Ameriqest Field is known a hitter's park. But something that can't be calculated is that some guys are just more comfortable playing at home. According to ESPN's park factor data, Ameriquest barely favors the hitter over the pitcher. And the data is skewed mostly by the fact that triples are greatly outweighed to the hitter. I just think it's normal for the majority of players to feel more comfortable driving to work at their leisure, rather than busing it, and getting a good night's sleep.

 

Those stats don't quantify anything to me except players feel more comfortable playing at a park they play 81 games in as opposed to inferior play during travel periods. What makes everyone dismiss the notion that Soriano could hit very well at Wrigley. Ameriquest doesn't offer much of an offensive advantage, not as much as everyone thinks.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

 

It's 10th in MLB and isn't much different from Wrigley except for Triples where it separates itself substantially. Triples.

[ThePenguin11]

Another thing worth noting about Ameriquest:

 

They have had great hitting teams for a long time and the only reason they've been bad is because of horrible pitching. This can tend to skew park statistics.

[Cubzfan64]

OBP gets cancelled out by the fact that he still scores 100+ runs and drives in 100+ runs. The whole reason sabermetricians use that is so they can quantify that a player will still be useful even if he's not a basher or a big hitter. It gives better value for guys who can't make good contact.

 

I love the OBP statistic, BUT IT HAS NO USE HERE. Soriano has proved that he can score a ton of runs and knock them in just as easily. Don't misuse the OBP stat.

 

EDIT: Think about it if he was a better OBP guy then he'd score 135 runs every year. So what, 112 runs isn't enough? That's what he's on pace for. He scored 124 runs a few years ago because what he lacks in walks he makes up for in extra base hits and speed.

 

Perhaps you should check his road splits. He has 7 HR on the road. His line is .240/.276/.401/.677. He's another hacker. Cubs hitters lack plate patience, and he just adds to the problem. I really don't think this guy is a difference maker. I'm sure Hendry/Baker will love him though.

 

I don't see how anyone can say the OBP statistic has no use here, I really don't. This team's GLARING weakness is a lack of guys who can get on base consistently. Soriano would be a fine addition to this team if we didn't have a glut of players like him. We've built an entire team offense using the same strategy - guys who swing at too many pitches and can't get on base - that's the reason we have one game where we outscore the opposition 10-2 and the next day can't score 1.

 

Todd Walker has the ability to get on base, plays a decent enough 2B defensively and shows some power now and then. On the current team, I'd rather have him playing than Soriano - in addition, as others have mentioned, what makes anyone think Soriano would be happy to move to the OF for the Cubs?

 

I want to make trades that fix some of the problems of the team, not add to them

[AAApittsburgh]

Even if the guy's road numbers aren't a factor, I still don't see him as a huge difference maker. In 3015 career ABs, the guy has walked 142 times. That's pathetic. OBP is this team's biggest offensive weakness. They should be looking to upgrade, not add to the problem.

[David]

I'm really conflicted on this one. On one hand, it goes against every grain of my being (as a baseball fan, at least, lol) to want a player who has such horrible patience at the plate. He's only going to add to the problem on those days where everyone is swinging at the first pitch and getting easy outs for some no-name pitcher.

 

On the other hand...it would make a big splash, and as much as I hate to admit it, I kinda like it when the Cubs make a big splash. :) He's been a productive hitter despite his deficiencies and it would make the lineup pretty imposing...at least power-wise (not that we need that.. what we need is more baserunners)...

 

Still.. Hairston, Walker, Lee, Ramirez, Soriano, Nomar, Burnitz, Barrett...

 

looks pretty scary.. :twisted:

 

I think I'll just hope that Hendry makes this easy on me and ships him off to the Mets for Floyd or someone else who can help us in both SLG and OBP...

[ThePenguin11]

The goal is to score RUNS. HE SCORES A TON OF RUNS. Just because he doesn't walk - doesn't mean he doesn't get on base and SCORE RUNS. He makes up for a lack of walks with a ton of DOUBLES AND HOMERUNS. His speed also allows him to get around the bases and score runs. What are you missing? Throw out OBP for this situation because he gets RBI's and SCORES RUNS.

[AAApittsburgh]

Those stats don't quantify anything to me except players feel more comfortable playing at a park they play 81 games in as opposed to inferior play during travel periods. What makes everyone dismiss the notion that Soriano could hit very well at Wrigley. Ameriquest doesn't offer much of an offensive advantage, not as much as everyone thinks.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor

 

It's 10th in MLB and isn't much different from Wrigley except for Triples where it separates itself substantially. Triples.

Then how do you explain why just about all the other hitters in that lineup have extreme home/road splits? It's not like it's just Soriano. Many of their players hit terrible on the road, and it has been that way for a long time.

[Cubzfan64]

The goal is to score RUNS. HE SCORES A TON OF RUNS. Just because he doesn't walk - doesn't mean he doesn't get on base and SCORE RUNS. He makes up for a lack of walks with a ton of DOUBLES AND HOMERUNS. His speed also allows him to get around the bases and score runs. What are you missing? Throw out OBP for this situation because he gets RBI's and SCORES RUNS.

 

I understand what you're saying about scoring runs, but runs scored isn't a product Soriano soley is able to control - Alot of those runs scored are because of the guys following him in the lineup. To me, statistically it looks like when Soriano gets on base, he has a good chance to score a run - the problem is ON THIS CURRENT CUB TEAM, we need guys who can get on base consistently and I don't think adding Soriano alone will help the team all that much.

 

I will say that I really like the idea of adding a speed factor and he fits that bill just fine for me. I'm worried about his comments and past feelings about moving to the OF and how he doesn't want to do that - I don't want an unhappy guy playing LF - unhappy ballplayers in general don't play up to their potential.

 

In a nutshell here is how I feel about Soriano:

 

If the Cubs were to get him, I would want him playing 2B. In doing that, Todd Walker either has to play LF (which I don't know if he can do), or he has to be packaged in a trade for an OBP guy to play LF (or we just put Murton out there and let him play and hope he can continue getting on base consistently).

 

I'm not dead set against getting Soriano - I just think only getting him does not solve the majority of this team's problems. If it's part of a big picture move by Hendry to acquire someone who can get OB for LF and play Soriano at 2B, then I would say go for it.

 

Does that make more sense?

[Marco4]

This team's GLARING weakness is a lack of guys who can get on base consistently. Soriano would be a fine addition to this team if we didn't have a glut of players like him. We've built an entire team offense using the same strategy - guys who swing at too many pitches and can't get on base - that's the reason we have one game where we outscore the opposition 10-2 and the next day can't score 1

 

=D> =D>

 

Its as if you read my thoughts and put them down in words.

[David]

Ah well.. I think we can all agree that Soriano would be an improvement in LF. Not the improvement many of us would like to see (myself included), but a pretty significant improvement, nonetheless.

 

If we put him at 2B and dump off Walker, I'm not too keen on this. I like Walker, and his OPS is not too far off from Sori's this year (and it's not inflated by a really high SLG/low OBP like Sori's)....

 

I can't say I'd be angry if we got Soriano... but I'd rather get someone else..

 

Theo Epstein, ya there???

[Fro]

This would be a great move, gives us the best offensive IF in baseball in 05 and probably 06, plus leaves enough salary flexibility to sign a good OF in 06.

[rawaction]

I hate the fact that Soriano doesn't walk much. But for some reason, I still love him as a hitter. He's a good ballplayer, despite his shortcomings. I agree that Soriano wouldn't solve any OBP issues this team has....but he's still better than who he would be replacing (Hollandsworth).

 

I'd gladly welcome Soriano on this team, this year and for the future. The problem is, Soriano with Patterson and Perez in the same lineup (not to mention I'd like to see more OBP out of RF and/or CF) is a disaster waiting to happen.

[RynoRules]

I may have mentioned this already, but I'd judge Soriano's acquisition based on what we have to give up to get him. So long as its a Mitre / Wellemyer / Single A OF type deal, I will be fine with it. I am not sure I'd feel too good about giving up someone like Hil or Pinto for him.

[RynoRules]

I hate the fact that Soriano doesn't walk much. But for some reason, I still love him as a hitter. He's a good ballplayer, despite his shortcomings. I agree that Soriano wouldn't solve any OBP issues this team has....but he's still better than who he would be replacing (Hollandsworth).

 

I'd gladly welcome Soriano on this team, this year and for the future. The problem is, Soriano with Patterson and Perez in the same lineup (not to mention I'd like to see more OBP out of RF and/or CF) is a disaster waiting to happen.

 

How about CPatt, Mitre, Wellemyer for Soriano and cash? Or Soriano and and Nix?

[Chocolate Milk]

The way I see it, he's an upgrade at either LF or second base, and if it doesnt hurt us long term, I wouldnt turn down any deal that upgrades the team.

 

Sure, we need more OBP, but if a guy that lacks OBP but has power is available, and is an upgrade, do it.

 

I totally agree. Everytime a player is suggested here he is picked apart. Soriano is a good player. No, he isn't perfect, but he is possibly the best option out there. I don't know who people expect us to get. Do we want to improve the team or do we want to wait for some mythical flawless player to appear so we can aquire him?

[Guest]

Another thing worth noting about Ameriquest:

 

They have had great hitting teams for a long time and the only reason they've been bad is because of horrible pitching. This can tend to skew park statistics.

Not when the Park Factor is calculated correctly. Properly calculated park factors show that the Ballpark at Arlington has consistently increased run production by 10-12% over the last several years, independent of who's pitching or hitting

[rawaction]

BTW, I think this is Dusty's lineup if Soriano is a Cub.

 

LF-Soriano

SS-Nomar

1B-Lee

CF-Burnitz

3B-Ramirez

RF-Hollandsworth

2B-Walker

C-Barrett

 

"Man, Soriano was the leadoff hitter for the Yankees World Series teams, ya know." "We need his speed at the top of the lineup, ya know." "Gotta keep Holly in there, man. He's going thru some tough times, man, but ya know, he'll break out of it."

[BigbadB]

The way I see it, he's an upgrade at either LF or second base, and if it doesnt hurt us long term, I wouldnt turn down any deal that upgrades the team.

 

Sure, we need more OBP, but if a guy that lacks OBP but has power is available, and is an upgrade, do it.

 

I totally agree. Everytime a player is suggested here he is picked apart. Soriano is a good player. No, he isn't perfect, but he is possibly the best option out there. I don't know who people expect us to get. Do we want to improve the team or do we want to wait for some mythical flawless player to appear so we can aquire him?

 

Are the Mets tired of Beltran yet? I'm thinking a change of scenery would do him some good. :wink:

 

If we could get a three way going that lands us Beltran, I'd be all over it.

[FallBall]

I wonder if he can pitch out of the bullpen.........

 

 

Nice deal, big name, big splash for Hendry if we get him but our bullpen still stinks.........

[TheDude]

Ah well.. I think we can all agree that Soriano would be an improvement in LF. Not the improvement many of us would like to see (myself included), but a pretty significant improvement, nonetheless.

How great an improvement do we need exactly?

 

Soriano: Tied for 4th in AL HR, tied for 4th in AL Doubles, tied for 8th in AL RBI, 8th in AL Runs, 10th in AL SB, 11th in AL in SLG.

 

The only thing this guy doesn't do is walk. But, as long as he is comfortably slotted in front a slugger, he doesn't need to walk - he'll get pitches to hit.

 

Now, having said that, I am not sure if he is the right fit long-term for this team, unless the plan is to not resign Walker for next year, or if Walker is dealt (but isn't he under contract for another year?).

 

Soriano isn't a natural outfielder, and I think he is resistant to such a switch. He also isn't a good 2B, and is a liability defensively.

 

So, IMO, while Soriano is definately a legitimate bat to add to the lineup, I think it is a square-peg in a round-hole scenario.

[CubinNY]

There is no way Soriano plays outfield for the Cubs. If he comes to Chicago it will be as a 2nd baseman.

 

Again, he refused to go to the outfield while with the Yankees. That was part of the reason why he was traded. He has again refused to go to the outfiled with Texas.

 

So I have to believe that if Soriano becomes a Cub that means Walker is headed elsewhere. However, as I stated earlier I think if a trade is made and the Cubs are part of it Soriano gets shipped out to the Mets for Floyd or Cameron.