I dont understand why some fans dislike Dusty.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

there is no doubt in my mind after reading this thread that zz thorn is, in fact, dusty baker

Wrong Baker.

[frostwyrm]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

 

If it were up to me you'd be temporarily banned for this post.

[ZZ Thorn]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

 

There's a lot of truth in that. Good post.

[scs_paradise]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

 

There's a lot of truth in that. Good post.

 

this is getting borderline childish.....minus the borderline part....

[Guest]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

Are you saying that there can be no valid criticism of authority? That's what it seems like to me. If that wasn't what you were trying to say, then at the very least you were implying that no criticisms aimed at Dusty in particular have been warranted. I must then assume that you have some reason for believing every person who questions Baker's descisions and strategies is just making stuff up trying to feel important. Care to share that reason with us?

[Coach C]

The reason why I have a strong dislike towards Dusty are several reasons.

 

1. I know that he is a freaking horrible in-game manager. He can only fill out the right freaking lineup when it's so obvious that there are no other logical lineup.

 

2. He cannot manage a bullpen, let alone the starting pitching, even if his life depended on it. I have never seen a bullpen that is so poorly used, and the fact that he trots out a starter to the mound with some 110+ pitches, where it's clearly evident that the pitcher is tired. It won't be long before some more starters will be going down due to arm problems.

 

3. On how he handle things in the media. There are some things that he said in the media that is just really flat-out a lies, and any average fan can sense that a mile away. Case in point, someone in here (Cannot recall who) mentioned this.

 

I'm reading the new Vineline while watching the game...

 

In the Q&A with Dusty Baker, Dustrag had this to say...

 

"He (Neifi) was pretty close to meaning as much to us as DLee has meant to us, offensively and defensively."

 

What? Pretty close to meaning as much to us as DLee? I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with that fact. Where exactly is Aramis then? To me, it sounds like that he's saying that Neifi is better than Aramis. That's just how I see it.

 

4. I might be the minority here, but I'm also seeing that he is benching the rookies, and said something that they learn better by watching others. EH? No, you can't learn a whole alot by "watching". You learn alot faster when you PLAY. Not only he's hurting the team right now, he's also hurting the future of the team by letting the rookies rot in the bench.

 

I'm depressed and I just about getting tired of watching the Cubs because of Dusty's unfathomable decisions, and it's just hurting the team IMHO.

 

I'm sorry if some of them just don't make sense, it's just how I feel, coming right from my heart. I love the Cubs, and I would never quit loving them. It's just that Dusty's decision making is really making it difficult right now. *sigh*

[Jimy is a misspell]

I didn't read this thread, but Dusty sucks, period. And it's not a Cubs/'Stros thing. I've always hated that clown.

[JC]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

 

There's a lot of truth in that. Good post.

 

this is getting borderline childish.....minus the borderline part....

 

The ignore feature really came in handy today.

[Balsa]

We will all reach the end of the internet before I get done listing all the things that are wrong with Dusty Baker. Shame on me, too, because I was one of those that fully supported his arrival in Chicago. Now that I have seen first hand his coaching philosophy, he can go back to where he came from.

 

I will simply spare you all my long list, as I have other internet surfing to finish before we reach the end.

 

http://www.amuseyourself.com/errors/

[oldcubsfan]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

 

There's a lot of truth in that. Good post.

I agree with both of you.

There is valid criticism of everyone, Dusty, the players and management. But everyday, even in wins, people feel the need to rip some decision that was made. The hate for Neifi is hard to believe. I remember when someone said he is the "worst hitter ever in baseball" and tried to justify it with some idiot's blog. Well, in 120 games with the Cubs, he's hit .280-21 doubles-10 HR's-45 rbi's and very good defense. Not bad for someone who is the backup shortstop forced into playing everyday. I remember the outrage over trading Hee Flop Choi and Bobby Hill.

It is also apparent that anyone who disagrees with the consensus thinking, which often turns out wrong, is threatened with being banned. When everyone agrees or is told to, it seems to eliminate discussion. When I read the justification for the Hawkins incident, I find it embarrassing to be a Cubs fan and season ticketholder for over 20 years.

[JC]

We will all reach the end of the internet before I get done listing all the things that are wrong with Dusty Baker. Shame on me, too, because I was one of those that fully supported his arrival in Chicago. Now that I have seen first hand his coaching philosophy, he can go back to where he came from.

 

I will simply spare you all my long list, as I have other internet surfing to finish before we reach the end.

 

http://www.amuseyourself.com/errors/

 

LOL!

[ZZ Thorn]

I agree with both of you.

There is valid criticism of everyone, Dusty, the players and management. But everyday, even in wins, people feel the need to rip some decision that was made. The hate for Neifi is hard to believe. I remember when someone said he is the "worst hitter ever in baseball" and tried to justify it with some idiot's blog. Well, in 120 games with the Cubs, he's hit .280-21 doubles-10 HR's-45 rbi's and very good defense. Not bad for someone who is the backup shortstop forced into playing everyday. I remember the outrage over trading Hee Flop Choi and Bobby Hill.

It is also apparent that anyone who disagrees with the consensus thinking, which often turns out wrong, is threatened with being banned. When everyone agrees or is told to, it seems to eliminate discussion. When I read the justification for the Hawkins incident, I find it embarrassing to be a Cubs fan and season ticketholder for over 20 years.

 

And I agree with you especially with the amazement that the hate for some players/Dusty still is unabated even after a win...even after a freakin game winning extra inning grand slam! I mean, if I look at it objectively, why even argue with someone who can't even set aside their bile and be happy for a guy they dislike for even the moments when they do well? How can you get a fair shake with someone like that? It's like they enjoy ripping on certain Cubs more than they enjoy seeing the Cubs win.

 

It's perplexing. And I think it's this kind of mentality that has led to this new 'hateful' breed of Cub fan that I find so surprising.

 

As far as the 'groupthink' on this board, well, some flip out at the mention of the word 'groupthink,' and factoring in what I consider to be the high quality of this board, I find that perplexing as well.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

this is the worst thread i've ever seen on NSBB.

[JC]

this is the worst thread i've ever seen on NSBB.

 

I agree. However, my opinion is likely invalid because I'm a victim of groupthink.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It is also apparent that anyone who disagrees with the consensus thinking, which often turns out wrong, is threatened with being banned. When everyone agrees or is told to, it seems to eliminate discussion. When I read the justification for the Hawkins incident, I find it embarrassing to be a Cubs fan and season ticketholder for over 20 years.

 

I think you'd be hard pressed to find a situation where someone was banned just for having an opposing opinion.

[oldcubsfan]

this is the worst thread i've ever seen on NSBB.

 

I agree. However, my opinion is likely invalid because I'm a victim of groupthink.

 

Well, if you feel that way, maybe ignoring it would be a good idea. You referred to ignoring it before.

[JC]

this is the worst thread i've ever seen on NSBB.

 

I agree. However, my opinion is likely invalid because I'm a victim of groupthink.

 

Well, if you feel that way, maybe ignoring it would be a good idea. You referred to ignoring it before.

 

Isn't this validation for you? I'd think you'd be all warm and fuzzy. I mean, every instance of groupthink will give you more reason to avoid this site, since you have such a disdain for the people that run it and post on it. Thus, if enough of us confess our groupthink sins and lament our posting shortcomings, perhaps you will be able to save countless numbers of wayward posters at other sites. I'm sure your dead on observations of posting patterns would be greeted warmly at SOSH.

[sonicdethmonkey0]

this is the worst thread i've ever seen on NSBB.

 

I agree. However, my opinion is likely invalid because I'm a victim of groupthink.

 

Well, if you feel that way, maybe ignoring it would be a good idea. You referred to ignoring it before.

 

besides a joke i said to zz, i did ignore it. but this thread has taken a turn from something i disagreed with, to being just preposterous.

 

listen, you can think what you want. if you think dusty is a great manager, then that's what you think. if you think neifi perez is so great, then i doubt that i'm going to change your mind. but when you sit there and talk about the board's "groupthink", then you lose all credibility. every point you try to make becomes a complete waste of internet. sorry.

 

i hate to break it to you guy, but we're the ones being objective here. i look at the facts, and say "neifi perez is a terrible baseball player." i look at the facts, and say "maybe even the worst ever!" i don't need to read some jerk's blog to figure that out. go to espn or cbs sportsline or yahoo and look at perez's stats. they're horrible. nauseating. repugnant. when you bring up that we root for neifi to fail, you're absolutely full of it. i said this in another thread: when neifi hit that grand slam, my quote was "YESSS! NO WAY!!! NEIFI! YOU'RE STILL ONE OF THE WORST BASEBALL PLAYERS EVER BUT YESS!" you guys can bask in the glory of that one moment all you want, but i'll take the logical road and look at the big picture. for everyone playing along at home, here are neifi perez's numbers this year:

 

396 ABs .260/.280/.370 (.650 OPS)

 

royce clayton has almost identical numbers. do you want royce clayton? what about adam everett? didn't think so. neifi started off hot, had a couple big hits, and then he becomes revered? if he played like this all year, you guys would be calling for his head. i really don't understand it. also, to the guy who said being critical of people makes us feel smart, that is the most ignorant, senseless, and downright stupid thing i've ever heard. upon reading that, i let out a hearty laugh, and continued my internet travels somewhere other than this thread. but i know, i know. i'm part of the groupthink trying to bring down dusty baker. maybe the reason the majority of the board thinks neifi is terrible and dusty sucks is because well, we're right? i really don't care if you've been a season ticket older for 20 years, or if you're dusty baker's child out of wedlock, or if you're just a regular baseball fan posting their .02 about the cubs, but to suggest what you guys are suggesting is almost insulting.

 

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/4339/emotssj8ud.gif

[frostwyrm]

the short answer is that some people will always criticize those above them (fav team's manager, GM, boss at work, etc.) because in their mind, criticism is a sign of intelligence...and they want everyone (especially everyone on the internet) to know how smart they are, especially in comparison to the manager/GM/boss/president, etc.

 

it's like those kids movies where all the adults ignore the kid and the kid ends up solving the crime all by himself, winning adoration and respect from those dumb-dumb grown ups!

 

There's a lot of truth in that. Good post.

I agree with both of you.

There is valid criticism of everyone, Dusty, the players and management. But everyday, even in wins, people feel the need to rip some decision that was made. The hate for Neifi is hard to believe. I remember when someone said he is the "worst hitter ever in baseball" and tried to justify it with some idiot's blog. Well, in 120 games with the Cubs, he's hit .280-21 doubles-10 HR's-45 rbi's and very good defense. Not bad for someone who is the backup shortstop forced into playing everyday. I remember the outrage over trading Hee Flop Choi and Bobby Hill.

It is also apparent that anyone who disagrees with the consensus thinking, which often turns out wrong, is threatened with being banned. When everyone agrees or is told to, it seems to eliminate discussion. When I read the justification for the Hawkins incident, I find it embarrassing to be a Cubs fan and season ticketholder for over 20 years.

 

I presume you are talking about me with the bolded remark. You missed my point. I believe dime's post merits a temporay banning because it is composed entirely of personal insults and attacks aimed at other members of this forum. It's not mildly insulting either, in fact it's probably the most insulting post I've ever seen here. If dime's post had argued the merits of the perceived "consenus thinking", or any other baseball ideas, then my attitude towards it would be different. Unfortunately the post contained only ad hominem attacks, which in my opinion is unacceptable.

[Balsa]

I believe dime's post merits a temporay banning because it is composed entirely of personal insults and attacks aimed at other members of this forum. It's not mildly insulting either, in fact it's probably the most insulting post I've ever seen here. If dime's post had argued the merits of the perceived "consenus thinking", or any other baseball ideas, then my attitude towards it would be different. Unfortunately the post contained only ad hominem attacks, which in my opinion is unacceptable.

 

Wow. People here get offended easily. Oh, and try not to get offended at that.

[wvcbxl]

It is also apparent that anyone who disagrees with the consensus thinking, which often turns out wrong, is threatened with being banned. When everyone agrees or is told to, it seems to eliminate discussion.

 

All the more curious that this board has become such a lively place of discussion over the past couple of years.:roll:

This board, more than any other board I know, cherishes the 'different opinion' when it is based on rational -or even emotional- arguments. What isn't tolerated here is the personal attack on fellow posters because they happen to have an opninion that differs from your own.

If everyone that disagrees here would be banned, Tim would have been talking to himself long ago.

[barryfoote]

I think Dusty should be fired because he's turning members of this board against each other.

 

I do think that questioning his moves during a game is easy to do because you always have the benefit of hindsight. You can offer alternate approaches to approaching game situations with the assumption that the different approach will work. That being said, there is plenty of room to legitimately criticize Dusty for his game moves. One example would be when he brought in Remlimger to face Larry Walker in an earlier game this year against St. Louis. Not only does Remlinger gets out righties better that lefties in general, but Larry Walker was hitting about .500 against him on top of that. Unsurprisingly, Walker hit a home run. I wonder how many other managers would have made a move like that.

 

And some of the statements made are a little over the top. I watched the Cubs during the 70’s and can guarantee you that there are many players worse then Neifi Perez.

 

The issues with not playing rookies is somewhat overstated in the sense that rookies are like backup quarterbacks. If the starter is not playing well, the assumption is that the rookie will do better and if the manager is not willing to play the rookie right away he must be anti-rookie.

 

However, I don’t think the criticism of Dusty not playing rookies is entirely unjustified, but I think it is a symptom of a larger problem, which is Dusty seems to have players he likes (like Hollandsworth and Macias) and players he doesn’t like (Hairston), and as a consequence he seems to make decisions on who plays partially based on criteria other than performance. For example when Hollandsworth was struggling mightily early in the year, it took forever for Dusty to give Dubois a chance. Granted it didn’t work out like we would have liked, but he should have gotten an opportunity sooner than he did (in my opinion). I also think that Matt Murton deserves more of a look based on what he has done so far. Hairston did not seem to a fair chance to earn a leadoff spot, and it was the demotion of Corey Patterson to the minors that forced his hand on that. I don’t have an issue with Macias as a 25 man, but it does seem like he is used in situations above other people that may be a better option (as a leadoff hitter, for instance). Competition is a wonderful motivator, but you need to let performance entirely dictate who plays in order for competition to be most effective.

 

My biggest issue with Dusty apart from him playing favorites is that I don’t see him holding the players accountable for playing solid fundamental baseball. Macias didn’t run out that bunt the other day, is that going to affect his playing time? When Corey overthrew the cutoff man but 50 feet on a play where the man at 3rd base wasn’t even going to attempt to score, did he get benched for that? When Hollandsworth did not hustle when fielding a double earlier this year that turned into a triple (I want to say it was against Eaton the San Diego pitcher), did he get benched for that even for a day or two? When Ramirez doesn’t run out a ball he thinks is a home run but isn’t, is Dusty calling him on that? I'm not seeing that.

 

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that this team would be running away with the wild card if we had another manager. But I do think the manager will either help or hinder your ability to win a handful of games during the year, and I think Dusty is hurting more that helping.

[katway]

I think Dusty should be fired because he's turning members of this board against each other.

 

I do think that questioning his moves during a game is easy to do because you always have the benefit of hindsight. You can offer alternate approaches to approaching game situations with the assumption that the different approach will work. That being said, there is plenty of room to legitimately criticize Dusty for his game moves. One example would be when he brought in Remlimger to face Larry Walker in an earlier game this year against St. Louis. Not only does Remlinger gets out righties better that lefties in general, but Larry Walker was hitting about .500 against him on top of that. Unsurprisingly, Walker hit a home run. I wonder how many other managers would have made a move like that.

 

And some of the statements made are a little over the top. I watched the Cubs during the 70’s and can guarantee you that there are many players worse then Neifi Perez.

 

The issues with not playing rookies is somewhat overstated in the sense that rookies are like backup quarterbacks. If the starter is not playing well, the assumption is that the rookie will do better and if the manager is not willing to play the rookie right away he must be anti-rookie.

 

However, I don’t think the criticism of Dusty not playing rookies is entirely unjustified, but I think it is a symptom of a larger problem, which is Dusty seems to have players he likes (like Hollandsworth and Macias) and players he doesn’t like (Hairston), and as a consequence he seems to make decisions on who plays partially based on criteria other than performance. For example when Hollandsworth was struggling mightily early in the year, it took forever for Dusty to give Dubois a chance. Granted it didn’t work out like we would have liked, but he should have gotten an opportunity sooner than he did (in my opinion). I also think that Matt Murton deserves more of a look based on what he has done so far. Hairston did not seem to a fair chance to earn a leadoff spot, and it was the demotion of Corey Patterson to the minors that forced his hand on that. I don’t have an issue with Macias as a 25 man, but it does seem like he is used in situations above other people that may be a better option (as a leadoff hitter, for instance). Competition is a wonderful motivator, but you need to let performance entirely dictate who plays in order for competition to be most effective.

 

My biggest issue with Dusty apart from him playing favorites is that I don’t see him holding the players accountable for playing solid fundamental baseball. Macias didn’t run out that bunt the other day, is that going to affect his playing time? When Corey overthrew the cutoff man but 50 feet on a play where the man at 3rd base wasn’t even going to attempt to score, did he get benched for that? When Hollandsworth did not hustle when fielding a double earlier this year that turned into a triple (I want to say it was against Eaton the San Diego pitcher), did he get benched for that even for a day or two? When Ramirez doesn’t run out a ball he thinks is a home run but isn’t, is Dusty calling him on that? I'm not seeing that.

 

I think you are kidding yourself if you think that this team would be running away with the wild card if we had another manager. But I do think the manager will either help or hinder your ability to win a handful of games during the year, and I think Dusty is hurting more that helping.

 

Excellent post. I agree entirely.

 

Personally, I would be happy with Dusty if he simply improved situational managing and took control of putting performance and winning ahead of his need to be liked by the players.

 

He overuses role players because he feels like they deserve playing time based on their veteran status and once in a blue moon controbution even if their performance is not helping the team win. He also lets players dictate their role to the detriment of the team. Corey asks to lead off, so Dusty lets him lead off knowing that Corey hasn't changed his approach and still needs to shorten his swing... how many games did that move cost us?

 

Dusty needs to take control of the team... this isn't about being their buddy, this isn't a team of players that can manage themselves, this is a team in need of a manager. Sometimes, Dusty fails to fill that void... he simply punts his managing duties.

 

The priority of this team should be to win, I'm not sure Dusty shares that priority.

[fromthestretch]

I do think that questioning his moves during a game is easy to do because you always have the benefit of hindsight. You can offer alternate approaches to approaching game situations with the assumption that the different approach will work. That being said, there is plenty of room to legitimately criticize Dusty for his game moves. One example would be when he brought in Remlimger to face Larry Walker in an earlier game this year against St. Louis. Not only does Remlinger gets out righties better that lefties in general, but Larry Walker was hitting about .500 against him on top of that. Unsurprisingly, Walker hit a home run. I wonder how many other managers would have made a move like that.

 

Lou Brown

 

"I gotta hunch he's due."

[Coach C]

I do think that questioning his moves during a game is easy to do because you always have the benefit of hindsight. You can offer alternate approaches to approaching game situations with the assumption that the different approach will work. That being said, there is plenty of room to legitimately criticize Dusty for his game moves. One example would be when he brought in Remlimger to face Larry Walker in an earlier game this year against St. Louis. Not only does Remlinger gets out righties better that lefties in general, but Larry Walker was hitting about .500 against him on top of that. Unsurprisingly, Walker hit a home run. I wonder how many other managers would have made a move like that.

 

Lou Brown

 

"I gotta hunch he's due."

 

Well, what are the odds of getting Lou Brown as our next Manager for the Cubs?

 

:-k