ZZ Thorn

Nice to see someone carrying the torch in my absense. But they're not worth the trouble. Dusty Busters never learn.

And I agree with you especially with the amazement that the hate for some players/Dusty still is unabated even after a win...even after a freakin game winning extra inning grand slam! I mean, if I look at it objectively, why even argue with someone who can't even set aside their bile and be happy for a guy they dislike for even the moments when they do well? How can you get a fair shake with someone like that? It's like they enjoy ripping on certain Cubs more than they enjoy seeing the Cubs win. It's perplexing. And I think it's this kind of mentality that has led to this new 'hateful' breed of Cub fan that I find so surprising. As far as the 'groupthink' on this board, well, some flip out at the mention of the word 'groupthink,' and factoring in what I consider to be the high quality of this board, I find that perplexing as well.

There's a lot of truth in that. Good post.

You know what's kind of funny? So many people liked today's lineup... and they were shut out. I mean there's so much lineup related bellyaching seemingly every game, and then people finally get a lineup they're happy with, and they get five hits. Just kind of funny is all....

Is Murton hot because he's facing lefties or would he be hot no matter who he bats against? Before answering, he's struck out five times in 10 at-bats against righties. Hasn't he also gotten 3 hits in those 10 ABs? I'll ask again, is he hot because he's facing lefties or would he be hot anyway? I like Murton a lot, and would hope some of the vets would learn his plate discipline. I also don't want him in a position to be overmatched. As I said yesterday, I wouldn't have a problem with him facing a rookie righthander or a below average righthander. So, would he be playing considerably less under this scenario vs. the way he's being used now? I'm just glad that we're seeing two lefties this series. Again, I go back to my desire to get a true everyday leftfielder....the same desire I stated last off-season. Murton hit righties in the minors just fine, and when the alternative to Murton is a piece of excrement named Todd Hollandsworth I'll take Murton. If Holla is a piece of excrement, and he's a million times better at baseball than you, what does that make you? :roll:

LOL! Don't make me laugh dude, I'm trying to manage a game. "Holla, how's the arm feel? You're setting up for Dempster today!"

Whew. Ohman has been money recently. Seemed like Williams pitched pretty well too.

Getting Soriano, i.e. pop from our 2b, would go a long way to being able to start Murton in LF and Pie in CF and even Cedeno at SS in 2006. As I said in a different thread, those two guys won't produce much pop (at least for a few years probably) at places where pop is expected, so if we also have non-pop at SS and 2b, 2 places where non-pop is usually standard, we wouldn't have much pop. Hope that made sense. My point: starting Murton, Pie and Cedeno would be totally acceptable w/ a slugging 2b, slugging RFer, Lee, ARam and Barrett at catcher IMO.

It is becuase every internet message board needs it's own troll. He trolls this board all the time. All one has to do is look up ZZ Thorn's posting history. Pick a topic and he will take the opposite opinion of most everyone else and at the same time put his toes to the line of taboo, but not corss it, becuase he likes to argue. If people would ignore his inane contrary opinons he would stop posting all together. He should just change his screen name to Devil's advocate becuase IMO he doesn't even believe half the nonsense he posts. Name one. I can't help it if I don't have the same opinions as everyone else, or rather I'm not going to help it.

C'mon Z, nobody is expecting perfection...just common sense. Or at least learning from his mistakes. It was total exaggeration (except for the peanut vendors: Wrigley's are second to none), but is there any other position on the field that it's easier to second guess than manager? Some people just love to whine and try and look smarter than the manager. But when whoever replaces Dusty gets hired, it'll be the same stuff different day. Or they'll be whining about some other set of problems...but they'll still be whining. And some people will never stop whining about having to listen to people whine. Sometimes, it's kind of cool to NOT have to hear your dissenting opinion in every single thread. Why do Dusty critics have to be characterized as whiners in the first place? Christ, haven't we gotten passed this yet? I'm not calling you a whiner, but that reads like textbook whining. :wink:

C'mon Z, nobody is expecting perfection...just common sense. Or at least learning from his mistakes. It was total exaggeration (except for the peanut vendors: Wrigley's are second to none), but is there any other position on the field that it's easier to second guess than manager? Some people just love to whine and try and look smarter than the manager. But when whoever replaces Dusty gets hired, it'll be the same stuff different day. Or they'll be whining about some other set of problems...but they'll still be whining. And some people will never stop whining about having to listen to people whine. Sometimes, it's kind of cool to NOT have to hear your dissenting opinion in every single thread. Not much work to do today.

C'mon Z, nobody is expecting perfection...just common sense. Or at least learning from his mistakes. It was total exaggeration (except for the peanut vendors: Wrigley's are second to none), but is there any other position on the field that it's easier to second guess than manager? Some people just love to whine and try and look smarter than the manager. But when whoever replaces Dusty gets hired, it'll be the same stuff different day. Or they'll be whining about some other set of problems...but they'll still be whining.

Giving Walker a day off is good idea: Neifi is going to be getting a lot of rest when Nomar comes back. I get to hear the game from the radio of a pickup truck as I go get some motors from the City of Chicago. Much better than being in the office where I get pretty bad reception. Cedeno could be the second coming of Ricky Gutierrez in the two spot.

Or you could just pick up the phone and talk to him. Or go downstairs. It's not like these guys don't talk to each other regularly.

Actually, Dusty is the manager, not Corey. He could've said no if he wanted to. He should've known not to let a guy who was struggling hit in one of the most crucial on base spots in the line up. I understand his player's manager philosophy, but this is the same thing that happened with Sammy's refusal to move down last year. At some point, Dusty has to put on his manager's hat, and make a decision that's going to benefit the team, not just keep one player happy. Exactly right. If Aramis asked to bat leadoff, what then? What if Barrett wanted to coach third base? Neifi work concessions? Really though, BleedCubbieBlue said it right: it's not a Players' Manager's job to give everyone what they want, it's to keep everybody happy and productive. If Corey wanted to bat leadoff, Dusty should've pulled him aside and given him a "best for the team" talk. Totally exaggerated points. I have no doubt Dusty, and Corey, and the Cubs, and Cub fans, were hoping a move to leadoff would stimulate Corey positively. Maybe we all knew it wasn't, but no one has been asking Barrett for years to tailor his skills to a third base coach's set. They tried it and it failed - Dusty saying no after all the prodding they had given Patterson in this direction is really quite unthinkable. You're right, I was exaggerating :wink:. But seriously, the rest of my point remains. Corey simply isn't a leadoff hitter. Even if he performs like he's capable, he's not the right type. But just like he did for Sosa, he let the players' decide where they bat. Also, how do you defend Neifi batting second as long as he did? (OT: My 100th Post!!) We all know Corey isn't a leadoff hitter, he's not even a hitter anymore. I don't really defend Neifi batting second, but the Corey/Neifi experiment did last that long. They tried it, it failed miserably, they were smart enought to abandon it. I really am surprised people get so upset over the experiment - it barely lasted 2 weeks in a 25+ week season.

What I don't like about Dusty is that he makes mistakes and decisions that can be second guessed. Unlike say every other manager, whose moves always turn out for the best. And unlike every hitter, who bats 1.000 and succeeds every time if he is only used 'properly.' And unlike every pitcher, who never gives up a run, again only if they are used 'properly.' And unlike every GM, who gets maximum value from every contract and trade. And unlike every peanut vendor, whose tosses hit the hand of every customer.

Boy, I'd say he deserves consideration, but will lose, for the gold glove. His positioning is incredible - I can't count the number of times he's cut a ball off holding a runner to a single instead of a double, which is pretty darn crucial. He is so much better than Sammy in RF it's not funny, and Sammy got to a lot of balls with his speed. His bat has been very good. He plays everyday and he plays hard everyday. I really think the guy could play another couple years at this level he seems like he's in such good shape. Wasn't thrilled about the signing, or his past stats, but he's been very good for us this year. If we had a slugger in LF and Burnitz was batting lower in the order I'd like him even more.

Actually, Dusty is the manager, not Corey. He could've said no if he wanted to. He should've known not to let a guy who was struggling hit in one of the most crucial on base spots in the line up. I understand his player's manager philosophy, but this is the same thing that happened with Sammy's refusal to move down last year. At some point, Dusty has to put on his manager's hat, and make a decision that's going to benefit the team, not just keep one player happy. Exactly right. If Aramis asked to bat leadoff, what then? What if Barrett wanted to coach third base? Neifi work concessions? Really though, BleedCubbieBlue said it right: it's not a Players' Manager's job to give everyone what they want, it's to keep everybody happy and productive. If Corey wanted to bat leadoff, Dusty should've pulled him aside and given him a "best for the team" talk. Totally exaggerated points. I have no doubt Dusty, and Corey, and the Cubs, and Cub fans, were hoping a move to leadoff would stimulate Corey positively. Maybe we all knew it wasn't, but no one has been asking Barrett for years to tailor his skills to a third base coach's set. They tried it and it failed - Dusty saying no after all the prodding they had given Patterson in this direction is really quite unthinkable.

Totally. And I don't get it cuz he was such a deserved fan favorite. He acted like such a nice guy for years. That's the new Cub fan: love forever until they don't.

Most will tell you that in '03 and '04 we were just about the best team out there, and the failures of those two years (playoffs or not) are on Dusty's shoulders. Also, just because we're a .500 team doesn't mean we're doing the best with the players we have. It's Dusty's mindset that many posters have an issue with. My complaints are with his hesitence to play rookies, and his ignorance of stats, such as OBP (which SERIOUSLY hurt us when CP and Neifi were 1-2). Many will say that Dusty is not the Strategic manager, but that he's a Players' manager. They say it's just his style. But if he's a good clubhouse guy, how did he allow the team to implode on itself in '04? Corey went and asked to bat leadoff - what was Dusty supposed to do? Say no you can't do this thing we've wanted you to do for years? Dusty had no choice, especially with his player's manager philosophy. Dusty didn't suck batting leadoff, CP did. There's a guy I don't miss watching play everday: Corey Patterson.

Stop making sense. I need to have a scapegoat to absorb the anger that is generated by my own life and the foolish way I live it.

I disagree. When a player is young like Murton and is developing, it is best that he gets to play everyday and to develop and mature as a player. You don't learn much sitting on the bench. He will have to hit righties some day, he needs to play now. You probably need to read the story from yesterday's game. According to Murton, it sounds as if he's learning a lot in games when he sits. That's why I don't want to see Cedeno sent back down, I'd rather see him sit on the bench. You learn a lot by being in the dugout. And I bet he would too - who wouldn't rather ride the pine in the bigs instead of playing in Tuscaloosa? Cedeno's mashed at AAA, he's not going to get truly rusty cuz Dusty plays everybody.

It's 3 at bats...that's it, just three...he's coming off an injury ya know.

It's too bad. We finally get good and then a ton of Cub fan get this know-it-all hateful arrogance. It's sure changed in a couple years. Good quote from Dusty - Murton is earning his way to some major PT. Combine that with Holla's huge slump and it should be pretty soon that he gets a shot to be our starting OF. If we don't get a starting OF by the deadline, that's when I bet it'll happen.

It was nice when guys like Dascenzo came out: the crowd would get all into it, and if he got a hit they'd go nuts, chant his name, etc. Guess it's a more jaded crowd nowadays, unwilling to pull for the underdog anymore. Too bad. Maybe people think these 25th men really suck - as tho they would do better or something, LOL!