Brandon Sing appreciation thread

[CUBZ99]

While the average fan gets to see Sing play on a 70 game basis at Pringles Park, I get a chance to see him play 140 games. While the average fan can't see Sing take BP at Pringles Park, I get to see him take BP and fielding everyday and I also have the coaches at my disposal to ask questions about his abilites, something the average fan doesn't have.

 

It is great to have contributors on this board that can give some actual first hand accounts on the prospects for those of us that can't get to some of the games.

 

BTW does anyone think that Sing will be added to the 40 man at the end of the year?

[Diffusion]

Nobody should be concerned with Sing's strikeouts. He makes up for it with his ability to get walks. He has a very good on-base percentage because of his very good knowledge of the strike zone.

 

1908, you made an interesting statement when you said, "Seeing a player doesn't give you the entire story about his ability to perform." I thought about that and came to the conclusion that it certainly applies to the fans, but not to the broadcasters and here is why. While the average fan gets to see Sing play on a 70 game basis at Pringles Park, I get a chance to see him play 140 games. While the average fan can't see Sing take BP at Pringles Park, I get to see him take BP and fielding everyday and I also have the coaches at my disposal to ask questions about his abilites, something the average fan doesn't have. In short, I'll take my chances on my opinion about Brandon Sing being a prospect over someone who has never once seen him play the game.

 

I didn't say that he wasn't a prospect, if that's what you're implying with that final sentence. I said he was an "okay prospect", as opposed to the very good one that Truffle seemed to be arguing he was. Typically the adjective I use to describe a prospect correlates with the kind of major league career that I think they're most likely to have. In other words, I can see Sing having an okay major league career for a first baseman (or corner oufielder). Not special, not terrible, just okay. Let me see, something like Richie Sexson-lite. Your thoughts?

 

Having said that, I will apoligize to Diffusion and anyone else that I might have offended when I was on my soapbox. Diffusion has every right to say what he (or she) thinks. I would hope, however, that when a person says something about a players prospect status, they would at the very least have seen the person play before forming an opinion.

 

No problem. I accept your apology, I tender a counter apology for being a bit aggressive in replying, I applaud you for your great work in the booth, and I respectfully disagree that I'm not allowed to formulate any opinion on a player without having seen him play.

[jaxxradio]

I must be in a foul mood or something.

 

1908, I agree with you on numbers. Unfortunately, the comparison between Sing and Dunn is unfair simply because Sing isn't doing this in the big leagues. All I can do is tell you what he has done the last two years. Bo has a much better idea of what he did in 2004, but looking at the fact that he won the MVP award and could have slaughtered the home run record had it not been for the multiple hurricanes that happened in that region, it's safe to assume that he was a stud in that league. I can tell you first hand that he has been very good in Double-A ball in 2005. He has drawn walks and hit for a good average while still maintaining the power numbers. Sing is a much better prospect now more than ever. He has major league power and could very well play RF or 1B in the big leagues.

 

Diffusion, I love the fact that you listen to the games and if I had a chance to get you on a plane to Jackson, TN to see the Jaxx play in person, I would do it in a heartbeat. I know as well as anyone else that it's tough to see a person play when you are 2,000 miles away. If I sounded like an arrogant SOB, I apoligize because thats not the way I am. I guess I went overboard because I see too many fans offering an opinion on someone they don't know from Adam. Anyone who has the stomach to tune into and listen to one of my broadcasts has to be a huge baseball fan. I'm sure that it's torture for you folks to hear me butcher names and be a general screwup.. lol

[Diffusion]

Diffusion, I love the fact that you listen to the games and if I had a chance to get you on a plane to Jackson, TN to see the Jaxx play in person, I would do it in a heartbeat. I know as well as anyone else that it's tough to see a person play when you are 2,000 miles away. If I sounded like an arrogant SOB, I apoligize because thats not the way I am. I guess I went overboard because I see too many fans offering an opinion on someone they don't know from Adam. Anyone who has the stomach to tune into and listen to one of my broadcasts has to be a huge baseball fan. I'm sure that it's torture for you folks to hear me butcher names and be a general screwup.. lol

 

Hehe. I am very grateful I'm not 2000 miles away myself, because in my case that'd put me in a dinghy in the middle of the Atlantic ocean. :shock:

[UK1679666180]

As far as whether or not a person has seen him and determining his prospect status, similar situations occur everyday in the scouting world.

 

Many times a scouting supervisor will only see a player take 2 to 3 ABs ot pitch 3-4 innings before writing him off, that's coming off a rec. from an associate scout. If a scout is there past the 7th inning, I wonder if he locked his keys in his car.

 

It's the nature of the beast, too many players in too little time.

 

But, if there are eyewitness accounts of the majority of his ABs, use them.

 

Personally, I've seen a couple of times, but I rely more on the reports from BA and his numbers (especially since they are further up the ladder) and use that more than my eyes. With HS players, I rarely look at a player's stats.

[TruffleShuffle]

Bottom line is this. Please don't talk about a player unless you have seen that person play. Otherwise, you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

Should I not post about E-Patt or Brandon Sing then? :oops:

 

What I'd like to emphasize about my knowledge of the minor leagues is that I am a very stat-oriented person. I rely on BA for much of my knowledge about a particular prospect, and generally they are pretty strong on their reports. I liked E-Patt even before the Cubs drafted him, and thought he had very good potential as leadoff hitter in the big leagues.

 

As for Sing, most of what I know I have read in BA as well. But I do know that he thoroughly trashed Daytona last year and is putting up monster numbers again this season, and it's hard to beat up on two leagues like that without being a serious prospect. Yes, his strikeout rate is relatively high, but unlike Dubois he shows excellent patience at the plate and does a better job of drawing walks or waiting for a pitch to hammer. My theory is that guys who have better BB/K and BB/PA ratios have a lot better shot at making the big leagues, and I don't need to see a guy in person to know those stats. He seems to have undergone a transformation since working with Richie Zisk, and I don't think it's unreasonable to think that something just clicked with him after some good instruction.

 

Scouting is a pretty variable science. Remember how Treebeard said Ryan Harvey looked like the worst hitter in baseball when he went 0-5 with 3 K's in the Peoria game he went to? The next day Harvey went something like 4-4 with 3 HRs and 7 RBI. If he'd gone to the game the next day instead, he probably would've been touting Harvey as being the best prospect in minor league baseball. My point is that it's certainly beneficial to see a guy, but to get a true idea you have to see him every day. So by that measure, almost no Cub fan knows much about the club's prospects. But we all have our different preferences and ideas about what makes a good prospect, and Sing fits what I look for in a prospect.

[Chris]

Brandon hit his 21st HR of the season tonight, giving him the SL lead in HRs. He's definitely having a special season.

[T2E]

My turn......

 

I agree with Diffusion (on Sing, I disagree with him on Murton). When put age into the equation, Sing's strikeouts become a problem. Without much speed or ability to put the ball in play, his average is very likely to hover in the .250 range.

 

Some will argue that strikeouts are simply the trade-off that comes from home runs and walks, and while this is true, it doesn't lessen the fact that large numbres of strikeouts lead to smaller batting averages.

 

I created a chart comparing Sing to four players that he gets compared to. All four players are big, tall corners who hit for power.

 

Player..	SO	AB	SO/AB	SO/AB2	Age
Sing...	549	2186	0.25	0.28	24
Dunn...	280	1208	0.23	0.22	21
Delgado	532	2394	0.22	0.21	21
Sexson.	496	2375	0.21	0.23	21

SO= total number of minor league strikeouts

AB= total number of minor league at-bats

SO/AB= strikeouts per minor league at-bats

SO/AB2= strikeouts per Double-A at-bats

Age= The players age at Double-A

 

As you can see from the chart, not only is Sing older than any of the other players, but he strikes out even more than they do. A very young player striking out a lot is less concerning than a 24 year old doing the same, because there is the hope that they will make corrections and cut down on the strikeouts. There is not as much hope for someone like Sing to completely turn it around after striking out more than ever at the age of 24.

 

I'm not saying that Brandon Sing has no future in the majors, in fact, I would rate him a top 15 prospect, but I'm not super blown away by his numbers, and I believe the strikeouts to be a legitamite concern. He's a solid prospect but not a very good one.

 

Bottom line is this. Please don't talk about a player unless you have seen that person play. Otherwise, you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

I suppose the folks at Baseball America "have no clue" since they generally rely on second hand information and statistics in their rankings and writeups?

[Chris]

 

Bottom line is this. Please don't talk about a player unless you have seen that person play. Otherwise, you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

I suppose the folks at Baseball America "have no clue" since they generally rely on second hand information and statistics in their rankings and writeups?

 

I'm pretty confident that BA has better sources and resources than the average fan.

[UBlink]

 

Bottom line is this. Please don't talk about a player unless you have seen that person play. Otherwise, you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

I suppose the folks at Baseball America "have no clue" since they generally rely on second hand information and statistics in their rankings and writeups?

 

I'm pretty confident that BA has better sources and resources than the average fan.

 

Naturally, NSBB members cannot be considered average fans. :)

[Tim]

My turn......

 

I agree with Diffusion (on Sing, I disagree with him on Murton). When put age into the equation, Sing's strikeouts become a problem. Without much speed or ability to put the ball in play, his average is very likely to hover in the .250 range.

 

Some will argue that strikeouts are simply the trade-off that comes from home runs and walks, and while this is true, it doesn't lessen the fact that large numbres of strikeouts lead to smaller batting averages.

 

I created a chart comparing Sing to four players that he gets compared to. All four players are big, tall corners who hit for power.

 

Player..	SO	AB	SO/AB	SO/AB2	Age
Sing...	549	2186	0.25	0.28	24
Dunn...	280	1208	0.23	0.22	21
Delgado	532	2394	0.22	0.21	21
Sexson.	496	2375	0.21	0.23	21

SO= total number of minor league strikeouts

AB= total number of minor league at-bats

SO/AB= strikeouts per minor league at-bats

SO/AB2= strikeouts per Double-A at-bats

Age= The players age at Double-A

 

As you can see from the chart, not only is Sing older than any of the other players, but he strikes out even more than they do. A very young player striking out a lot is less concerning than a 24 year old doing the same, because there is the hope that they will make corrections and cut down on the strikeouts. There is not as much hope for someone like Sing to completely turn it around after striking out more than ever at the age of 24.

 

I'm not saying that Brandon Sing has no future in the majors, in fact, I would rate him a top 15 prospect, but I'm not super blown away by his numbers, and I believe the strikeouts to be a legitamite concern. He's a solid prospect but not a very good one.

I tend to think of this guy as a decent comp from a hitting perspective, though Sing walks more and is older at the same levels.

 

Sadly, Branyan's development is one possible path for Dopirak to end up taking.

[CubinNY]

I tend to think of this guy as a decent comp from a hitting perspective, though Sing walks more and is older at the same levels.

 

Sadly, Branyan's development is one possible path for Dopirak to end up taking.

 

If Branyan is the floor for Sing or Dopirak, then I think the Cubs have two real good prospects on their hands. Now, which one do they keep in 2008?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Branyan put up a 1061 OPS at High A ball at age 21.

 

Sing put up a 782 OPS at High A ball at age 21.

 

Dopirak has a 659 OPS at High A ball at age 21.

[hawkeyecub]

I tend to think of this guy as a decent comp from a hitting perspective, though Sing walks more and is older at the same levels.

 

Sadly, Branyan's development is one possible path for Dopirak to end up taking.

 

If Branyan is the floor for Sing or Dopirak, then I think the Cubs have two real good prospects on their hands. Now, which one do they keep in 2008?

 

I don't think Branyan is the floor for either. Both of them could definitely have a lower floor in my opinion.

[Warpticon]

I tend to think of this guy as a decent comp from a hitting perspective, though Sing walks more and is older at the same levels.

 

Sadly, Branyan's development is one possible path for Dopirak to end up taking.

 

Also, for Harvey. Especially for Harvey, really. His power is prodigous, but his strikeout rate is frightful, and he doesn't walk much, either.

[jaxxradio]

Food for thought on this discussion (BTW, I am still apoligizing for anyone I offended with my comments).

 

I am of the belief that when the light bulb finally comes on and the prospect gets it, that's when you should seriously look at his numbers. In other words, I am not going to look at Sing's numbers prior to the 2003 season because he wasn't a really good prospect then. I know it sounds wierd, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

 

If you look at what Sing has done, he has to be considered a top ten prospect or at least a top fifteen. Sing has to be protected this off-season because if he isn't, he will certainly be taken by someone else.

[RyCubsFan]

Food for thought on this discussion (BTW, I am still apoligizing for anyone I offended with my comments).

 

I am of the belief that when the light bulb finally comes on and the prospect gets it, that's when you should seriously look at his numbers. In other words, I am not going to look at Sing's numbers prior to the 2003 season because he wasn't a really good prospect then. I know it sounds wierd, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

 

If you look at what Sing has done, he has to be considered a top ten prospect or at least a top fifteen. Sing has to be protected this off-season because if he isn't, he will certainly be taken by someone else.

 

 

I think you have a good point about "a light going on." There are many examples of a "light" going on for a player, and suddently all previous projections are off. Off the top of my head: Melvin Mora, Luis Gonzalez, Jose Guillen, and perhaps now Derek Lee!

 

In the Cubs system, it appears a similar light has been turned on by Montanez, Cedeno, and Hill. A light certainly went on for Wuertz last year. A light seems to have gone on for Van Buren last year as well....

[T2E]

I tend to think of this guy as a decent comp from a hitting perspective, though Sing walks more and is older at the same levels.

 

Sadly, Branyan's development is one possible path for Dopirak to end up taking.

 

Also, for Harvey. Especially for Harvey, really. His power is prodigous, but his strikeout rate is frightful, and he doesn't walk much, either.

 

I'm not sure Harvey compares well to Branyan because Branyan walked considerably more. Harvey is also a much better defender and a better athlete. But I think Branyan compares well to Sing, and unfortunately, Dopi.

[craig]

I am of the belief that when the light bulb finally comes on and the prospect gets it, that's when you should seriously look at his numbers. In other words, I am not going to look at Sing's numbers prior to the 2003 season because he wasn't a really good prospect then. I know it sounds wierd, but if you think about it, it makes sense.

 

If you look at what Sing has done, he has to be considered a top ten prospect or at least a top fifteen. Sing has to be protected this off-season because if he isn't, he will certainly be taken by someone else.

 

I agree that sometimes the light goes on, and looking at what a kid did years before is non-predictive. Hill and Cedeno seem to have been lights-on guys. Doesn't always work out, of course. I hoped Richie Lewis was a "something clicked" guy last year, but this year has indicated otherwise.

 

Much of this discussion is semantics. Great prospect, prospect, OK prospect? IMO, the Cubs farm has weakened substantially compared to 2, 3, and 4 years ago, and even compared to last year with all the pitchers that have lost their shine due to the injuries. Certainly Sing will be in BA's top 10 this winter; he was in their top 15 last winter, before having a big year in high minors and before Guzman, Petrick, Dopirak, Lewis, Brownlie, Grant Johnson, Dubois, and others have had very bad or relatively un-inflating seasons.

 

Whether being in the top ten means he has much chance to ever command a starting position with the Cubs, or ever command a starting position and be an asset for a contending team, that's a bigger reach.

 

Ron, from seeing all his AB's, why does he strike out so much? Is there any pattern? Inside heat? High heat? Breaking stuff? K's in streaks, but if he can learn to avoid what causes the bad streaks he may not K so much later on? Simply because his strategy values the walk so much, he's constantly putting himself into deep counts and K counts? Because he's chosen not to expand his strike zone even when he does get to 2 strikes, and he'll take a pitch that he thinks is outside on 2-2 just as he would on 1-0, even if umps sometimes call outside pitches strikes? Does he K so much because in the minors he can take the approach of guessing fastball, and if a pitcher can throw breaking balls in the strike zone Brandon is willing to give him his strikeout? The concern, of course, is that so many K's may reflect some holes in his swing, weaknesses which big-league pitchers may be able to take better advantage of. If it's breaking balls that kill him, big leaguers tend to have better breaking balls. If it's hard stuff, big leaguers throw hard more consistently than AA guys.

 

From a defense side, how would you compare him to former Jaxx outfielders we've now seen, namely Dubois and Murton?

 

In fact, as a prospect, Sing has been often compared to Dubois, even though his walk-rate is much superior. How would you compare your feelings about Sing now versus when Dubois was there two years ago?

[TruffleShuffle]

Ron, from seeing all his AB's, why does he strike out so much? Is there any pattern? Inside heat? High heat? Breaking stuff? K's in streaks, but if he can learn to avoid what causes the bad streaks he may not K so much later on? Simply because his strategy values the walk so much, he's constantly putting himself into deep counts and K counts? Because he's chosen not to expand his strike zone even when he does get to 2 strikes, and he'll take a pitch that he thinks is outside on 2-2 just as he would on 1-0, even if umps sometimes call outside pitches strikes? Does he K so much because in the minors he can take the approach of guessing fastball, and if a pitcher can throw breaking balls in the strike zone Brandon is willing to give him his strikeout? The concern, of course, is that so many K's may reflect some holes in his swing, weaknesses which big-league pitchers may be able to take better advantage of. If it's breaking balls that kill him, big leaguers tend to have better breaking balls. If it's hard stuff, big leaguers throw hard more consistently than AA guys.

 

I think his strikeout "problem" is being vastly overblown. Since his approach at the plate changed and he started being more patient, he has struck out 185 times in 215 games. That isn't that bad. It's a lower strikeout rate than someone like Ryan Harvey. And it also has to be noted that he has walked 145 times in those 215 games, so his BB/K ratio is a very good 0.8.

 

My guess is that the reason he strikes out so much owes a lot to his patient approach. Look at guys like Mark Bellhorn or Adam Dunn, who work deep into the count every time they're up. They're clearly going to strike out more than a guy like Neifi Perez, who goes up hacking and usually hits the first strike that he sees. It's very hard to find a power hitter who hits a lot of home runs and draws a lot of walks without striking out fairly regularly. Derrek Lee strikes out way more than ARam, but I'm willing to accept all his strikeouts because he draws a good number of walks and hits with power.

 

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare him to guys like Sexson, Dunn, or Delgado. There's about a 99.9% chance that he will be worse than those guys, being as they're three of the better power hitters in the game. How about a guy like Trot Nixon? He usually strikes out more than 100 times a year, but gives you about 70 walks a year, hits for a decent average and will give you 25-30 HR each season as well. I'd be perfectly happy to have something like that in LF, considering the garbage we've been throwing out there this season.

[T2E]

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare him to guys like Sexson, Dunn, or Delgado. There's about a 99.9% chance that he will be worse than those guys, being as they're three of the better power hitters in the game. How about a guy like Trot Nixon? He usually strikes out more than 100 times a year, but gives you about 70 walks a year, hits for a decent average and will give you 25-30 HR each season as well. I'd be perfectly happy to have something like that in LF, considering the garbage we've been throwing out there this season.

 

The point I was trying to make was not Delgado, Dunn and Sexson are better than Sing (although they are), but that it is very rare to see a 24 year old striking out as much as Sing is and see him become a major league regular. It's not impossible, just rare and a serious concern.

 

Nixon, for example, was 22 in his first full season at AA, and he didn't strike out much at all.

[TruffleShuffle]

The point I was trying to make was not Delgado, Dunn and Sexson are better than Sing (although they are), but that it is very rare to see a 24 year old striking out as much as Sing is and see him become a major league regular. It's not impossible, just rare and a serious concern.

 

Nixon, for example, was 22 in his first full season at AA, and he didn't strike out much at all.

 

I see your point. But I would say that a whole bunch of guys who dominated both High A and AA became very good big league players, regardless of age. Also, Nixon did have a much lower K-rate in AA at age 22, but his walk rate was considerably lower, he hit for much less power, and his BB/K was basically the same as that of Sing this year and last.

 

Anyway, this has been one of my most enjoyable threads to read on here... lots of differing opinions and most of them well presented. I decided to e-mail Ask BA and see what the 'experts' have to say about Mr. Sing... hopefully I'll get a response!

[Chris]

Bump in appreciation of HR #24, which is 1 away from tying the Jaxx record