Do you still want Dunn?

[Mark_R]

 

Dunn and Ramirez were basically equal in production last year, and Dunn is outproducing Ramirez this year. He's also younger than Ramirez.

 

After tonight's game, I'd guess that Ramirez has an edge in OPS vs. Dunn, but I'm curious to see how their OPS-Plus' compare given that Dunn plays half his games in an extreme hitters park.

 

EDIT: I don't think the comparison between Ramirez and Dunn (from a value perspective) is apt considering one has a long term deal and plays a position that is much more difficult to fill with a consistent stick. And who really knows how much of a "value" Dunn will be when he gets signed to a long term deal. Their values are completely different at this stage, two different scenarios that need to be taken into account for the comparison to be accurate.

[burnt out cubbie fan]

If the Cubs get Dunn it will cost no more than three players and the Cubs will get throw-in to make it look good.

 

Four-for-one deals don't happen anymore.

Sure they do. The Brewers traded Sexson before last season for seven players. I'm sure there have been more than that recently but I just don't remember off hand and don't feel like looking it up.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

 

Dunn and Ramirez were basically equal in production last year, and Dunn is outproducing Ramirez this year. He's also younger than Ramirez.

 

After tonight's game, I'd guess that Ramirez has an edge in OPS vs. Dunn, but I'm curious to see how their OPS-Plus' compare given that Dunn plays half his games in an extreme hitters park.

 

EDIT: I don't think the comparison between Ramirez and Dunn (from a value perspective) is apt considering one has a long term deal and plays a position that is much more difficult to fill with a consistent stick. And who really knows how much of a "value" Dunn will be when he gets signed to a long term deal. Their values are completely different at this stage, two different scenarios that need to be taken into account for the comparison to be accurate.

 

I wasn't intending for the comparison to be taken too literally, just so that people would think about how much you would want for a similar production player on our own team, then relating that to Dunn.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

Pursue it or do it? If you were the Reds' GM, who would you ask for in exchange?

 

Well, this is the info that our own vance was able to dig up for us:

 

Spoke with my source and he says info is harder to come by with Pupura than it was with Hunsicker.

 

Either way, apparently, the Astros turned down the Reds first proposal. The Reds wanted the Astros to part with Backe, Lane, and a minor league pitcher believed to be Patton. The Astros felt that was too expensive and said no. It doesn't mean there won't be a deal, but my source seems to believe the Reds are asking more than anyone is willing to part with.

 

Apparently they want one young established major league pitcher, one established position player, and at least one top shelf minor league pitcher.

 

 

Assuming that is true, it wouldnt be too awful hard to one up that offer. Backe and lane are nothing special.

 

I think Jerome Williams + Jody Gerut/Corey Patterson + Pinto(maybe rich hill) sounds like a decent package.

 

I'd do that in a heartbeat.

 

Not to impune Vance's source, but, I find it hard to believe that the Astros would've been the ones to turn down that trade. Why would the Reds want that deal? In addition, if you were the Reds' GM for a day, you'd really give up a potential cornerstone for Williams (has made ML starts, but wouldn't call him an established starter yet), Patterson (don't know if you can call him established yet) and Pinto, who hasn't thrown in the majors? My guess is Hill would have to replace Pinto or Hill added. Regardless, if the Reds' GM would make that trade I'd bet you could hear fans screaming all the way from Ohio. At minimum, they should ask for an established major league starter (a #3 or #4 starter), two top pitching prospects and maybe a top position prospect. I don't think a GM would trade Dunn for question marks. I still wouldn't mind Cliff Floyd.

 

Just a little clarification. There's some speculation by him on why the Astros turned it down. First, while they would like Dunn, apparently Pupura doesn't like hitters who strike out a lot. So while he knows Dunn in an improvement, Pupura seems to have some questions about how valuable he really is.

 

Secondly, Pupura has labeled Patton untouchable. Whether he's that good or not, I don't know....but he's likely the deal breaker right now.

 

Third, while Gerut, Williams and a Cubs minor leaguer looks comparable, I really think the Reds would ask for more from the Cubs. My source gets the distinct feeling the Reds are examining each team and trying to get some top shelf talent for Dunn. The Astros system is weaker, so it's likely the Reds asked for Lane and Backe because there's not much else the Astros have that they would like. We're both puzzled as to why they didn't ask for Burke instead of Lane.

 

Based on this, my guess is that Gerut, Williams, and Pinto isn't close. Gerut and Williams maybe...and Williams does seem to fit the bill to me. I think the Reds though would ask for one or two of the best our system has to offer. I'm certain they'd likely look at a pool of these players: Pie, Dopirak, Marshall, Gallagher, Hill.

[rocket]

dunn hit a double today and todd walker robbed him of a hit therefore i change my stance and now i want dunn

[nilodnayr]

tired of reading through threads....but in comparing arams and dunns production in relation to their value, the positions they play needs to be brought into the debate. While 3b is a power position, definitely not as much as LF.

[columbuscub]

Living in Cincy I get to see Dunn play just about every night on FSN Ohio. He is a great athlete, and a servicable Left Fielder. He has decent speed for his size, and excellent plate discipline.

 

That being said, I'd like to have Dunn, but I don't think the Cubs should risk giving up too much for him.

 

Why? Because he is hitting .212 (.210 career) with runners in scoring position.

 

If the Cubbies do get Dunn, I would only hit him second. Hitting him 3-6 won't help because of his inability to get key hits with RISP. The Reds have no idea where to hit him and have been shifting him around all year because of this...4th-7th in the order. He should hit 2nd to take advantage of his ability to get on base at such a high percentage...

 

Imagine Dunn with an OBP of .400 in front of DLee, Aram, and Bernie...That's a lot more RBI.

 

He actually gets a bad rap here in Cincy. People here feel he takes too many good pitches with RISP. Marty Brennamen is all over him contantly about this.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Dan O'Brien asks for too much. He's been fleeced in every trade he has made so far, and he knows it. People are still up in arms about the Chris Reitsma trade.

[Guest]

That being said, I'd like to have Dunn, but I don't think the Cubs should risk giving up too much for him.

 

Why? Because he is hitting .212 (.210 career) with runners in scoring position.

 

If the Cubbies do get Dunn, I would only hit him second. Hitting him 3-6 won't help because of his inability to get key hits with RISP.

I wouldn't worry about his low avg. w/RISP. Situational hitting stats such as RISP numbers have little to no predictive value. (Meaning what he's hitting with guys on base now tells you next to nothing about what he'll do in those situations in the future.)

[E.J.]

Living in Cincy I get to see Dunn play just about every night on FSN Ohio. He is a great athlete, and a servicable Left Fielder. He has decent speed for his size, and excellent plate discipline.

 

That being said, I'd like to have Dunn, but I don't think the Cubs should risk giving up too much for him.

 

Why? Because he is hitting .212 (.210 career) with runners in scoring position.

 

If the Cubbies do get Dunn, I would only hit him second. Hitting him 3-6 won't help because of his inability to get key hits with RISP. The Reds have no idea where to hit him and have been shifting him around all year because of this...4th-7th in the order. He should hit 2nd to take advantage of his ability to get on base at such a high percentage...

 

Imagine Dunn with an OBP of .400 in front of DLee, Aram, and Bernie...That's a lot more RBI.

 

He actually gets a bad rap here in Cincy. People here feel he takes too many good pitches with RISP. Marty Brennamen is all over him contantly about this.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Dan O'Brien asks for too much. He's been fleeced in every trade he has made so far, and he knows it. People are still up in arms about the Chris Reitsma trade.

 

Exactly. I think he sets up perfect for the 2-hole hitter. He's not going to hit well with runners on, but his near .400 OBP looks great hitting right in front of D Lee. He might even get better pitches to hit with D Lee behind him.

[Iceblink]

While I would love to see Dunn in Cubbie blue, my enthusiasm is a little tempered by a couple things:

 

Given all the attention given to Preston Wilson's home/road splits, it's interesting that Dunn's numbers are vastly better at home. Over the last 3 years, it's .929 at home and .840 on the road. I'm not sure how Coors & Great American compare, but that gap is hard to ignore.

 

There's the second-hand talk that Dunn wants to play in Houston. Rather unpleasant to think two years in the future and see Dunn playing for the Astros and Rich Hill, Mitre, and Patterson with a decent chance to all be starting in Cinci. Maybe the Dunn talk is just sportswriter fluff and he'd sign long term. Still, makes me a little antsy.

 

Lastly, I've heard that some teams considering trading for Dunn are thinking of putting him at first base. The guy is 275... I wonder if his future is in the OF.

 

 

The OBP profiles great in the #2 spot, but you don't put a 40-50 homer guy there - not even a chance, IMO. The strikeouts are going to kill a lot of rallies wherever he bats, but I guess you live with that given the power.

[Diffusion]

The Cubs lineup + Dunn > The Reds lineup + Dunn

 

So for now, until they trade one of them, the Reds get two Adam Dunns?

 

Poor them, "two players hitting .240 with 400 K's between them yadda yadda...."

 

Yes, I still want Adam Dunn.

[Roast]

The Cubs lineup + Dunn > The Reds lineup + Dunn

 

So for now, until they trade one of them, the Reds get two Adam Dunns?

 

Poor them, "two players hitting .240 with 400 K's between them yadda yadda...."

 

Yes, I still want Adam Dunn.

 

Thats not what he's saying at all. He's saying the reds, with dunn are not as good as the cubs would be, if they had dunn.

[Diffusion]

The Cubs lineup + Dunn > The Reds lineup + Dunn

 

So for now, until they trade one of them, the Reds get two Adam Dunns?

 

Poor them, "two players hitting .240 with 400 K's between them yadda yadda...."

 

Yes, I still want Adam Dunn.

 

Thats not what he's saying at all. He's saying the reds, with dunn are not as good as the cubs would be, if they had dunn.

 

Er, thanks, Roast, I think.

 

I know what he was saying.

 

All I was saying was that "The Reds Lineup" features one Adam Dunn as it is, and then you've got "+ Adam Dunn" as well, making two Adam Dunns. That's a thought that'll blow the mind of many around here.

 

So I was joking.

[RammyFanny]

Can somebody tell me why we want Adam Dunn? I don't hate the guy and wouldn't mind him here, but alright, he is batting .239. Although he hits a lot of longballs he leads (or is in a close second) the league in K's. I know his OBP is high and walks alot but i don't know. The man set the record for the longest time without a sac fly of an active player or something like that so you can tell he isn't the fundamental player we are really looking for. My vote of course goes to pierre if we can get him, OBP and BA will be up there by seasons end, very young (I know dunn is young too), and can finally provide us with someone that will be in pitchers heads every second hes on base. In addition to that, i dont see why people say the wrigley grass would hinder that because wouldnt it just slow down groundballs ad bunts dead in the grass making it easier for him to beat it out? Anyways i just wanted to see why many people are obsessed with Adam Dunn.

 

P.S- I'm Rammy Fanny and I'm new to the Board!! :D

[Transmogrified Tiger]

we want Adam Dunn. I don't hate the guy and wouldn't mind him here, but alright, he is batting .239. Although he hits a lot of longballs he leads (or is in a close second) the league in K's. I know his OBP is high and walks alot but i don't know. The man set the record for the longest time without a sac fly of an active player or something like that so you can tell he isn't the fundamental player we are really looking for. My vote of course goes to pierre if we can get him, OBP and BA will be up there by seasons end, very young (I know dunn is young too), and can finally provide us with someone that will be in pitchers heads every second hes on base. In addition to that, i dont see why people say the wrigley grass would hinder that because wouldnt it just slow down groundballs ad bunts dead in the grass making it easier for him to beat it out? Anyways i just wanted to see why many people are obsessed with Adam Dunn.

 

P.S- I'm Rammy Fanny and I'm new to the Board!! :D

 

Welcome to the Forum!

 

Check out the "Do We Want Dunn" thread a couple threads down. It's basically the exact same debate you bring up.

[Proven Veteran]

He's 25. He has a career OPS of .900. What else do you want? He is one of the elite offensive performers in the game. BA is not important.

[Sarcastic]

He's 25. He has a career OPS of .900. What else do you want? He is one of the elite offensive performers in the game. BA is not important.

 

That might be a slight overstatement. OBP is much more valuable, but a hit is always better than a walk.

[JeffH]

Dunn is the kind of guy who is underrated in some quarters and overrated in others.

[Proven Veteran]

He's 25. He has a career OPS of .900. What else do you want? He is one of the elite offensive performers in the game. BA is not important.

 

That might be a slight overstatement. OBP is much more valuable, but a hit is always better than a walk.

 

I'd rather that people just stopped using BA as a key stat.

[Roast]

He's 25. He has a career OPS of .900. What else do you want? He is one of the elite offensive performers in the game. BA is not important.

 

That might be a slight overstatement. OBP is much more valuable, but a hit is always better than a walk.

 

I'd rather that people just stopped using BA as a key stat.

 

Agreed. If he can get on base, thats all that matters.

 

Yea, a hit is better than a walk sometiimes, but getting on base is better than not getting on base at all.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Is it just me, or is Dunn a power hitter? I always thought a power hitters job wasn't to draw walks, it was to drive in runs. A guy hitting .239 with almost no sac flies isn't the answer. I like Pierre, and I like Aubrey Huff (although he's been struggling this year, he's starting to turn it around)

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

There are plenty of .239 hitters who can draw walks that we could get for much cheaper than Adam Dunn.

[Chocolate Milk]

Nevermind.

[Alien11]

There are plenty of .239 hitters who can draw walks that we could get for much cheaper than Adam Dunn.

 

True, but it at 25 you can take the chance he can make the adjustments to improve that BA over a long period of time. Also with such a high OBP, it shows he has at least better plate discipline than say, CP.

[1908]

There are plenty of .239 hitters who can draw walks that we could get for much cheaper than Adam Dunn.

How many of them are 25 or younger with a .900 career OPS?