2017-2018 NBA Season

[Sammy Sofa]

And someone explain me to me BR's approach to PER, Win Shares, VORP and box minutes. To a dunce like me, these all seem like cumulative value stats; how do they relate to each other? How reliable are they?

 

BR has pages for those stats...

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm.html

 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

 

I know, but I'm barely functional when it comes to this stuff, and the bold part is my main question. Dumb it down for me and tell me how reliable they are, please.

[The_Achiever]

How anyone can actually sit here and say Michael Jordan was better at basketball than Lebron James blows my mind. Lebron is the best and most complete athlete to play any sport I've ever had the pleasure to watch.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but MJ was the most competitive and intimidating athlete I've ever seen. Everyone in the building was terrified of him and once he got over the hump nobody was beating him. He was a 35 year old shooting guard and won the 1998 playoffs/finals basically by himself. Pippen was hurt and Rodman was in la la land.

[Splendid Splinter]

How anyone can actually sit here and say Michael Jordan was better at basketball than Lebron James blows my mind. Lebron is the best and most complete athlete to play any sport I've ever had the pleasure to watch.

 

I got into a debate with one of my friends this past weekend about the best and most complete "athlete" and how we can even compare from one sport to another. That ended up us debating on who's better relative to their league... Trout or LeBron?

[WrigleyField 22]

Guys, the GOAT debate will never be settled.

 

That said, can we talk about who has the better crying meme?

[Sammy Sofa]

Guys, the GOAT debate will never be settled.

 

That said, can we talk about who has the better crying meme?

 

horsefeathers, LeBron is so great he also managed to give the world yet another new classic meme moment last night.

[philosophizer75]

The meme is gonna be the one with him holding his hands out and grimacing at JR.

 

The better picture is the one from behind lebron with him standing and pointing towards the basket and JR dribbling at him like a dumbfounded puppy.

[SouthSideRyan]

How anyone can actually sit here and say Michael Jordan was better at basketball than Lebron James blows my mind. Lebron is the best and most complete athlete to play any sport I've ever had the pleasure to watch.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but MJ was the most competitive and intimidating athlete I've ever seen. Everyone in the building was terrified of him and once he got over the hump nobody was beating him. He was a 35 year old shooting guard and won the 1998 playoffs/finals basically by himself. Pippen was hurt and Rodman was in la la land.

 

Looking past the nonsense about how competitive and intimidating he was, when is the hump defined? Is it conveniently 1991? Then what happened in 1995 when he was punked by Nick Anderson? Oh that doesn't count he just came back from baseball. Where was his competitiveness and imtimidation factor though? And why did none of that transition into baseball? What about the Wizards? Does competitive nature fade with age? Or was he and his team just not that good. Wait strike the and his team part, teammates and context do not matter.

 

And the '98 finals...the one where Jordan shot worse than all but 2 of LBJ's Finals, one of which where Drew Gooden was LBJ's 2nd. Gooden, presumably equaling some sort of Barkley/Malone hybrid at that point in his career.

[illiniguy]

Stats don’t lie....higher PER.

 

And best athlete isn’t any of these guys. It’s Bo or Deion. Or Dave Winfield.

[Sammy Sofa]

Someone explain why this dude is all hung up on PER. That, WS or BPM (and VORP way behind, I guess) all seem like ways to try and cumulatively judge one player's overall value vs. another, and LeBron tops Jordan in all of those except for PER, where Jordan JUST edges him out.

[Regular Show]

Stats don’t lie....higher PER.

 

And best athlete isn’t any of these guys. It’s Bo or Deion. Or Dave Winfield.

 

It's Bo Jackson for best athlete across all sports for me. This guy knows:

 

[bbvideo=640,360]

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[imb]

I have no problem saying that, adjusting for era, jordan was the greatest player of my lifetime. LeBron is better but plays in an era where the competition is FAR superior.

[Tim]

I have no problem saying that Jordan and Lebron are head and shoulders above everyone else. Between them is a pick your poison kind of thing for me.

[SouthSideRyan]

Someone explain why this dude is all hung up on PER. That, WS or BPM (and VORP way behind, I guess) all seem like ways to try and cumulatively judge one player's overall value vs. another, and LeBron tops Jordan in all of those except for PER, where Jordan JUST edges him out.

 

PER is beneficial to Jordan

[illiniguy]

Someone explain why this dude is all hung up on PER. That, WS or BPM (and VORP way behind, I guess) all seem like ways to try and cumulatively judge one player's overall value vs. another, and LeBron tops Jordan in all of those except for PER, where Jordan JUST edges him out.

Win shares can be based so much on usage and rates. Jordan's peak was played within an offense that encouraged him to share the ball and Pippen did a majority of the ball control. LeBron is in an offense that is stand and watch LeBron play. I think it's why so many of his teammates that were stars before him(Bosh and Love) struggle to find roles with him. I personally believe LeBron would have been even better than he is if he would have been forced to play for a coach like a Phil Jackson that could have convinced him that he needed other teammates capable of making big plays to win championships. Either way, it's splitting hairs. I have no problem with LeBron being someone's choice as the best. But, I don't think it is insane to still suggest Jordan could be as well.

 

The main pet peeve I have now is the people that argue out of one side of their mouth how watered down the league was when Jordan played, but then prop Pippen up like he was somehow immune to that. Sure seems convenient.

[illiniguy]

I have no problem saying that, adjusting for era, jordan was the greatest player of my lifetime. LeBron is better but plays in an era where the competition is FAR superior.

This very well could be true, but a washed up Jordan did go for 20/6/4 against the guys that were LeBron's contemporaries.

[David]

I have no problem saying that, adjusting for era, jordan was the greatest player of my lifetime. LeBron is better but plays in an era where the competition is FAR superior.

This very well could be true, but a washed up Jordan did go for 20/6/4 against the guys that were LeBron's contemporaries.

 

The guys from 15 years ago?

[David]

Someone explain why this dude is all hung up on PER. That, WS or BPM (and VORP way behind, I guess) all seem like ways to try and cumulatively judge one player's overall value vs. another, and LeBron tops Jordan in all of those except for PER, where Jordan JUST edges him out.

Win shares can be based so much on usage and rates. Jordan's peak was played within an offense that encouraged him to share the ball and Pippen did a majority of the ball control. LeBron is in an offense that is stand and watch LeBron play. I think it's why so many of his teammates that were stars before him(Bosh and Love) struggle to find roles with him. I personally believe LeBron would have been even better than he is if he would have been forced to play for a coach like a Phil Jackson that could have convinced him that he needed other teammates capable of making big plays to win championships. Either way, it's splitting hairs. I have no problem with LeBron being someone's choice as the best. But, I don't think it is insane to still suggest Jordan could be as well.

 

The main pet peeve I have now is the people that argue out of one side of their mouth how watered down the league was when Jordan played, but then prop Pippen up like he was somehow immune to that. Sure seems convenient.

 

What? LeBron has a usage of 31.5% for his career. Jordan 33.3%

 

I'm not taking sides of this but I've literally never heard anyone say Jordan's edge is that he shared the ball and LeBron doesn't. LeBron is a facilitator and an incredibly skilled passer and one of the most common criticisms people levy against him is that he's too willing to defer at times he needs to take over. What in the hell?

 

EDIT -

 

LeBron career AST% - 35.7% (and in the 40's the last couple years)

 

MJ - 24.9% (and only eclipsed 30% two times, one of which was one of those dumb Wizards seasons)

 

 

Also Phil Jackson is overrated as hell and is a complete dinosaur in today's NBA...someone like him would do nothing for LBJ.

 

 

EDIT 2 - and reminder that i horsefeathering hate lebron james

[WrigleyField 22]

Someone explain why this dude is all hung up on PER. That, WS or BPM (and VORP way behind, I guess) all seem like ways to try and cumulatively judge one player's overall value vs. another, and LeBron tops Jordan in all of those except for PER, where Jordan JUST edges him out.

Win shares can be based so much on usage and rates. Jordan's peak was played within an offense that encouraged him to share the ball and Pippen did a majority of the ball control. LeBron is in an offense that is stand and watch LeBron play. I think it's why so many of his teammates that were stars before him(Bosh and Love) struggle to find roles with him. I personally believe LeBron would have been even better than he is if he would have been forced to play for a coach like a Phil Jackson that could have convinced him that he needed other teammates capable of making big plays to win championships. Either way, it's splitting hairs. I have no problem with LeBron being someone's choice as the best. But, I don't think it is insane to still suggest Jordan could be as well.

 

The main pet peeve I have now is the people that argue out of one side of their mouth how watered down the league was when Jordan played, but then prop Pippen up like he was somehow immune to that. Sure seems convenient.

 

What? LeBron has a usage of 31.5% for his career. Jordan 33.3%

 

I'm not taking sides of this but I've literally never heard anyone say Jordan's edge is that he shared the ball and LeBron doesn't. LeBron is a facilitator and an incredibly skilled passer and one of the most common criticisms people levy against him is that he's too willing to defer at times he needs to take over. What in the hell?

 

EDIT -

 

LeBron career AST% - 35.7% (and in the 40's the last couple years)

 

MJ - 24.9% (and only eclipsed 30% two times, one of which was one of those dumb Wizards seasons)

 

 

Also Phil Jackson is overrated as hell and is a complete dinosaur in today's NBA...someone like him would do nothing for LBJ.

 

 

EDIT 2 - and reminder that i horsefeathering hate lebron james

I'm not sure I follow his argument as it relates to measuring any substantive argument between the two, but I think the relationships between the players and the offenses and usage/ast% that you quoted make sense. Usage really just tracks % of completed plays . A player in a more iso based offense may have a higher ast% just because they have more opportunities. In a movement based offense, a player will spend less time with the ball. And you can't look at usage to determine who spends more time with the ball in his hand (since it only tracks finished plays). Also presumably, if you could track hockey assists, that ast% gap between the iso and movement based offensives could close.

 

So if you don't take it as an argument that Jordan was a better passer, but rather Jordan played in an offense where everyone played a bigger role in passing, it's at least a logical (no idea if correct) argument. And the usg% stat is useless to defend for or against that claim, and the ast% numbers may be backing it up. Unfortunately we don't have really advanced stats from Jordan's era to track how much time a player actually spends with the ball in his hands, which we have today.

[UMFan83]

Someone explain why this dude is all hung up on PER. That, WS or BPM (and VORP way behind, I guess) all seem like ways to try and cumulatively judge one player's overall value vs. another, and LeBron tops Jordan in all of those except for PER, where Jordan JUST edges him out.

 

Not making any argument, just pointing out as you sort of eluded to that Win Shares is a cumulative stat (as is VORP) and while longevity should be used as a point of evaluation, it’s worth noting that MJ’s WS/48 over his career is higher than LeBron's.

 

Either way MJ was my sports idol growing up and I’m heavily biased towards him. That said LeBron has in my eyes evened himself up with MJ to the point where I see 1 and 1a. Overall it doesn’t matter to me who is the real GOAT...both will be viewed as legends in a tier with just each other (although you can make a case for some guys that came before MJ). Also by the time we get done settling this debate, someone else will probably show up and challenge GOAT status and this will happen again. So I won’t worry about it.

[illiniguy]

I have no problem saying that, adjusting for era, jordan was the greatest player of my lifetime. LeBron is better but plays in an era where the competition is FAR superior.

This very well could be true, but a washed up Jordan did go for 20/6/4 against the guys that were LeBron's contemporaries.

 

The guys from 15 years ago?

I'd say that Paul Pierce was one of LeBron's main rivals. Dirk as well, being as both had big playoff series with him, no?

[illiniguy]

Win shares can be based so much on usage and rates. Jordan's peak was played within an offense that encouraged him to share the ball and Pippen did a majority of the ball control. LeBron is in an offense that is stand and watch LeBron play. I think it's why so many of his teammates that were stars before him(Bosh and Love) struggle to find roles with him. I personally believe LeBron would have been even better than he is if he would have been forced to play for a coach like a Phil Jackson that could have convinced him that he needed other teammates capable of making big plays to win championships. Either way, it's splitting hairs. I have no problem with LeBron being someone's choice as the best. But, I don't think it is insane to still suggest Jordan could be as well.

 

The main pet peeve I have now is the people that argue out of one side of their mouth how watered down the league was when Jordan played, but then prop Pippen up like he was somehow immune to that. Sure seems convenient.

 

What? LeBron has a usage of 31.5% for his career. Jordan 33.3%

 

I'm not taking sides of this but I've literally never heard anyone say Jordan's edge is that he shared the ball and LeBron doesn't. LeBron is a facilitator and an incredibly skilled passer and one of the most common criticisms people levy against him is that he's too willing to defer at times he needs to take over. What in the hell?

 

EDIT -

 

LeBron career AST% - 35.7% (and in the 40's the last couple years)

 

MJ - 24.9% (and only eclipsed 30% two times, one of which was one of those dumb Wizards seasons)

 

 

Also Phil Jackson is overrated as hell and is a complete dinosaur in today's NBA...someone like him would do nothing for LBJ.

 

 

EDIT 2 - and reminder that i horsefeathering hate lebron james

I'm not sure I follow his argument as it relates to measuring any substantive argument between the two, but I think the relationships between the players and the offenses and usage/ast% that you quoted make sense. Usage really just tracks % of completed plays . A player in a more iso based offense may have a higher ast% just because they have more opportunities. In a movement based offense, a player will spend less time with the ball. And you can't look at usage to determine who spends more time with the ball in his hand (since it only tracks finished plays). Also presumably, if you could track hockey assists, that ast% gap between the iso and movement based offensives could close.

 

So if you don't take it as an argument that Jordan was a better passer, but rather Jordan played in an offense where everyone played a bigger role in passing, it's at least a logical (no idea if correct) argument. And the usg% stat is useless to defend for or against that claim, and the ast% numbers may be backing it up. Unfortunately we don't have really advanced stats from Jordan's era to track how much time a player actually spends with the ball in his hands, which we have today.

This, thanks. This is what I was trying to get to, you just said it a lot better.

[bcl412]

I’m starting to loath the Jordan vs LeBron thing. Did this happen when Jordan was towards the end of his career with anyone?

[Sammy Sofa]

I’m starting to loath the Jordan vs LeBron thing. Did this happen when Jordan was towards the end of his career with anyone?

 

I envy that you seemingly missed all of the "is Kobe the next Jordan?/Kobe IS the next Jordan"-talk.

[bcl412]

I’m starting to loath the Jordan vs LeBron thing. Did this happen when Jordan was towards the end of his career with anyone?

 

I envy that you seemingly missed all of the "is Kobe the next Jordan?/Kobe IS the next Jordan"-talk.

 

Didn’t seem as prominent though I wasn’t AS big into the NBA until LeBron joined the heat

[SouthSideRyan]

I’m starting to loath the Jordan vs LeBron thing. Did this happen when Jordan was towards the end of his career with anyone?

 

I envy that you seemingly missed all of the "is Kobe the next Jordan?/Kobe IS the next Jordan"-talk.

 

Didn’t seem as prominent though I wasn’t AS big into the NBA until LeBron joined the heat

 

Because Kobe wasn’t so clearly better than Jordan