New Benny, and Other changes (Bulls offseason)

[David]

I don't understand the thought process of "winning an NBA title is too hard lets just be satisfied with winning 50 games and going to the second round"

 

when the alternative is let's firebomb the roster and have a completely irrelevant team that we don't even watch for years and years with no end in sight in hopes of maybe being one of those charmed <10% of the league that ends up with the type of player who can win you championships?

 

it's a shitty setup, but i'll take having a watchable and enjoyable team over tanking when the odds of actually getting what you want are that slim.

 

i don't necessarily watch sports for championships as much as i do for entertainment and if the nba/basketball are set up in such a way that i have to choose between being in "NBA hell" or being completely terrible (you know, the whole "if you're not great then just suck terribly until you are great" mindset) i'll take my entertaining basketball team that i can look forward to watching, while knowing they're probably going to lose to lebron because that's how basketball works.

[David]

I like Valentine. GarPax are as bad as Theo/Jed are good though. A "retool" done by these guys is going to result in multiple 30-40 win type seasons. Purgatory. No big name FA is coming to Chicago, they've got to find them at the top of the draft. I don't give a flying [expletive] about watching a borderline competitive team that finishes consistently between 6-10 in the East. I don't even understand how that CAN be fun. Have some ambition.

 

 

Maybe you trade Jimmy after FA begins or at the deadline. But a plan to stay mediocre is [expletive] stupid and right now.....That's what it looks like.

 

This isn't baseball or football. You don't have a shot at a title as long as you are decent and get into the playoffs. I can't remember the last time I saw more than 2 teams as legit title contenders, maybe 3. If you luck into a great player and win titles, that's cool and all, but it's a damn near impossible thing to set out to do. Especially with a cap on player salaries. They don't come around in the draft all that often (that's an understatement) and the financial advantages a big market should have don't matter.

 

You know what really sucks? Winning 15 games and then drafting Marcus Fizer or some [expletive]. And then winning 15 games again. And again. And again. Going years without being interested in the team after 2 or 3 games.

 

Simple. Don't draft [expletive] stiffs. Use FA to accentuate. I'd rather be horrible and give being GREAT a shot, than sitting in the 6-10 range in the [expletive] ass East for the rest of Jimmy's deal......Then, getting worse once he laughs at the ineptitude and leaves.

 

You're not going to stay in the 15 win range forever. Hell, trade off the kids and picks and reboot in 2 years. But give yourself a damn chance. I really don't even see how a 35-40 win team with no ceiling is watchable personally.

 

who said anything about wanting to be a 35-40 win team?

 

i want to put a good roster around jimmy (kind of like they did with rose in 2010) over this offseason and next and win 50+ and then i'll deal with being heartbroken for 3-4 days when we lose to lebron again. jimmy is good enough to be the best player on that type of team.

[David]

Seems like the solution would be to not draft Marcus Fizers rather than eschew high draft picks.

 

The baby bulls wouldve been pretty dangerous i thought jay williams wouldve been an all star pg.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_NBA_draft

 

and while that's an extreme example of a bad draft, the point is that there aren't superstars in every draft (far from it) and when there is ONE, plenty of teams are trying to get him and you have to actually win the lotto to get him. those odds aren't worth it to me. not investing years of suckage for those odds.

 

can't really agree on williams either. didn't see near enough from him his first year to think anything like that.

 

Or you could be Golden State and strike gold in like 5 straight drafts

 

yeah i mean the alternative is hope a #7 overall pick turns into the best shooter ever and an MVP

 

i mean, you give me a lebron in next year's draft and i'll 100% be on board with trading jimmy butler for the worst return we can get and telling the coach he's fired if they win one damn game (and even then, we still have a really good chance of getting fucked out of the pick, but i'd do it).

[davell]

 

This isn't baseball or football. You don't have a shot at a title as long as you are decent and get into the playoffs. I can't remember the last time I saw more than 2 teams as legit title contenders, maybe 3. If you luck into a great player and win titles, that's cool and all, but it's a damn near impossible thing to set out to do. Especially with a cap on player salaries. They don't come around in the draft all that often (that's an understatement) and the financial advantages a big market should have don't matter.

 

You know what really sucks? Winning 15 games and then drafting Marcus Fizer or some [expletive]. And then winning 15 games again. And again. And again. Going years without being interested in the team after 2 or 3 games.

 

Simple. Don't draft [expletive] stiffs. Use FA to accentuate. I'd rather be horrible and give being GREAT a shot, than sitting in the 6-10 range in the [expletive] ass East for the rest of Jimmy's deal......Then, getting worse once he laughs at the ineptitude and leaves.

 

You're not going to stay in the 15 win range forever. Hell, trade off the kids and picks and reboot in 2 years. But give yourself a damn chance. I really don't even see how a 35-40 win team with no ceiling is watchable personally.

 

who said anything about wanting to be a 35-40 win team?

 

i want to put a good roster around jimmy (kind of like they did with rose in 2010) over this offseason and next and win 50+ and then i'll deal with being heartbroken for 3-4 days when we lose to lebron again. jimmy is good enough to be the best player on that type of team.

 

I don't see the roster construction, the cap room, or a remotely capable FO to accomplish that. In fact, with the escalating cap, I'd fully expect us to hymn ourselves firmly into a 35-40 win team.

[David]

 

Simple. Don't draft [expletive] stiffs. Use FA to accentuate. I'd rather be horrible and give being GREAT a shot, than sitting in the 6-10 range in the [expletive] ass East for the rest of Jimmy's deal......Then, getting worse once he laughs at the ineptitude and leaves.

 

You're not going to stay in the 15 win range forever. Hell, trade off the kids and picks and reboot in 2 years. But give yourself a damn chance. I really don't even see how a 35-40 win team with no ceiling is watchable personally.

 

who said anything about wanting to be a 35-40 win team?

 

i want to put a good roster around jimmy (kind of like they did with rose in 2010) over this offseason and next and win 50+ and then i'll deal with being heartbroken for 3-4 days when we lose to lebron again. jimmy is good enough to be the best player on that type of team.

 

I don't see the roster construction, the cap room, or a remotely capable FO to accomplish that. In fact, with the escalating cap, I'd fully expect us to hymn ourselves firmly into a 35-40 win team.

 

until this year and the nonsense with not trading gasol, i've never really looked at this as a bad front office. they did a great job making lemonade out of lemons in 2010 and put together a really solid roster. they've made solid draft picks late. they've also made some picks that haven't been good players, but what kind of success rate do you expect where they've drafted?

 

do i think it's a great FO? no. do i think they're some sort of completely incompetent (as you put it, as bad as thoyer is good) management team that can't put a decent roster around a player as good as jimmy? hell no.

 

the last 4 years are largely owed to the fact that derrick rose won an mvp out of nowhere, got paid massively (super max for the MVP), and then turned into a complete nothing. what front office is going to make something great out of that situation?

Edited June 24, 2016 by David

[UMFan83]

David I guess I'm not sure how to change your mind from your opinion, I just can't imagine wanting to root for a team that is not trying to win a title. That's the whole point but to each their own.

[David]

David I guess I'm not sure how to change your mind from your opinion, I just can't imagine wanting to root for a team that is not trying to win a title. That's the whole point but to each their own.

 

because it's not something you can really try to do in any realistic sense of the word. that's my point. and they've definitely tried. they've tried to throw their money at every superstar free agent that has come along. and it's been 13 years since the draft yielded that type of player in the traditional sense...if you want to include curry then, fine, but even then, that's not a guy you would've wound up with unless you failed at being bad enough.

 

you could throw durant in there too, i guess, even though even he hasn't done it yet.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The solution is to stop following the NBA with any seriousness, because David isn't wrong about having pretty much no chance at a title, but the teams that do care so little about the regular season that winning a handful of regular season games means less than ever too.

[WrigleyField 22]

I had a lot of fun watching various iterations of second round exit Bulls teams. Whether by FA, trade, or draft you need a horsefeathers ton of luck, so I say go and compete and remain as flexible as possible while winning some games.

[WrigleyField 22]

Although some strategic disassembles can make sense. Like I wanted to blow up the roster after Rose's second injury. Yet that team became probably my second favorite team since the championship teams. So what do I know anyways.

[David]

[tweet]

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a new guy we can pretend to have an opinion on i guess

 

 

draft xpress had him ranked in the mid 20s. i read some tweet somewhere that said the bulls convinced him to come over this year.

[bcl412]

Basically all you can do is build a solid team. In the East it takes just one upset and you could be in the finals. Good, solid teams have won championships before they don't typically win many and it is still rare. This is the most difficult sport to build a champion and my enjoyment of it doesn't really come from that.

 

But i say always try to build while leaving cap space, in the future trades could happen, injuries could happen, the conference could really fall to horsefeathers like the early 2000s or even last year would have been if the Cavs weren't a thing. I can't think of many teams who've had success with a complete tank job, it's an idea that sounds better in video games or in theory than it ever actually ends up being.

 

Plus with Butler, the guy came out of no where to be what be what he is. He's still young and if he improves more you got a superstar player. Not saying it will happen but nobody expected what he is now either.

[bcl412]

The solution is to stop following the NBA with any seriousness, because David isn't wrong about having pretty much no chance at a title, but the teams that do care so little about the regular season that winning a handful of regular season games means less than ever too.

I like things like legacies and best teams ever and watching the best players ever do what they do. It's probably some Bill Simmons built BS or something but oh well. Hoping my favorite team wins a championship isn't on the top of the list of why i like NBA basketball.

[WrigleyField 22]

So Thibs was just trolling the whole time?

[raw]

Basically all you can do is build a solid team. In the East it takes just one upset and you could be in the finals. Good, solid teams have won championships before they don't typically win many and it is still rare. This is the most difficult sport to build a champion and my enjoyment of it doesn't really come from that.

 

But i say always try to build while leaving cap space, in the future trades could happen, injuries could happen, the conference could really fall to [expletive] like the early 2000s or even last year would have been if the Cavs weren't a thing. I can't think of many teams who've had success with a complete tank job, it's an idea that sounds better in video games or in theory than it ever actually ends up being.

 

Plus with Butler, the guy came out of no where to be what be what he is. He's still young and if he improves more you got a superstar player. Not saying it will happen but nobody expected what he is now either.

 

The problem is, there hasn't been an upset in the last 6 years in the East. LeBron goes to the finals. You can even extend that to the Celtics before that too if you want. You can't say anything can happen when anything hasn't happened in a decade. And yes, the Cavs are a thing and will be for the forseeable future, which is the point of not being good without being great.

[UMFan83]

The solution is to stop following the NBA with any seriousness, because David isn't wrong about having pretty much no chance at a title, but the teams that do care so little about the regular season that winning a handful of regular season games means less than ever too.

 

Trust me, I've thought about why I'm a fan of a specific NBA team for awhile. 90% of the time the teams competing for the title have top 3 players on them. How do you get a top 3 player? You either draft one, or you are a desirable FA destination with some semblence of a contender that the superstar can step into.

 

So your options are:

1) Quit following the NBA or follow the NBA but not a specific team and enjoy it from a macro level

2) Root for your team to do everything they can to acquire a top 3 player, even if it includes tanking and drafting lottery tickets. You can also build a solid team like the 2010 Bulls that is ready made for a star to step in and start winning titles, but even in that scenario you can have the most desirable option and not get your guy

3) Do what David wants and be happy with NBA hell, hope you luck into a superstar down in the draft, or build one of those teams with several smaller stars and hope they all gel into a gritty team that wins 55 games and gets a surprise finals appearance (2003-2004 Pistons style)

[UMFan83]

I had a lot of fun watching various iterations of second round exit Bulls teams. Whether by FA, trade, or draft you need a [expletive] ton of luck, so I say go and compete and remain as flexible as possible while winning some games.

 

I had a lot of fun too, but it was always with the hope that they were going to take the next step, and it was always based on the hope that next year Derrick was going to turn into some semblance of his former self again and we could be a legitimate contender in the East.

[David]

I had a lot of fun watching various iterations of second round exit Bulls teams. Whether by FA, trade, or draft you need a [expletive] ton of luck, so I say go and compete and remain as flexible as possible while winning some games.

 

I had a lot of fun too, but it was always with the hope that they were going to take the next step, and it was always based on the hope that next year Derrick was going to turn into some semblance of his former self again and we could be a legitimate contender in the East.

 

how much fun did you have watching this game?

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504240CHI.html

 

Because I had a lot of horsefeathering fun that day and I'm OK with admitting that.

[UMFan83]

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a new guy we can pretend to have an opinion on i guess

 

 

draft xpress had him ranked in the mid 20s. i read some tweet somewhere that said the bulls convinced him to come over this year.

 

Nice highlight video. Just wondering why he only averaged 5 PPG last year.

 

Also he tore a knee ligament in 2014. Denzel Valentine has knee issues. You'd think we've been burned by bum knees enough in our recent history.

[WrigleyField 22]

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a new guy we can pretend to have an opinion on i guess

 

 

draft xpress had him ranked in the mid 20s. i read some tweet somewhere that said the bulls convinced him to come over this year.

 

Nice highlight video. Just wondering why he only averaged 5 PPG last year.

 

Also he tore a knee ligament in 2014. Denzel Valentine has knee issues. You'd think we've been burned by bum knees enough in our recent history.

It's Euroball, it's not like you're gonna get 20ppg scorers. The minutes distribution is typically more even along with ball distribution. The year we spent a first rounder on Mirotic he had just put up 7.5 ppg. The few years after that he exceeded double digits.

[UMFan83]

I had a lot of fun watching various iterations of second round exit Bulls teams. Whether by FA, trade, or draft you need a [expletive] ton of luck, so I say go and compete and remain as flexible as possible while winning some games.

 

I had a lot of fun too, but it was always with the hope that they were going to take the next step, and it was always based on the hope that next year Derrick was going to turn into some semblance of his former self again and we could be a legitimate contender in the East.

 

how much fun did you have watching this game?

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504240CHI.html

 

Because I had a lot of [expletive] fun that day and I'm OK with admitting that.

 

I was there. On that team we had 2 promising lottery picks, Deng in particular had a superstar ceiling or was thought at the time. There were still people that believed Curry and Chandler had some superstar potential left in them. Gordon was looking like a really good number 2. They were in really nice shape with the salary cap. Yes that team in particular was not going to win a title, but there was a ton of hope that they had their superstar developing and they were on a legit road to the title. And if they didn't want to wait they had assets to swing a deal. Most of that core was allegedly good enough to swing a deal for a still in his prime Kobe a couple of years later.

 

This particular team building is Jimmy Butler, whose ceiling we know, then a bunch of low ceiling role players (Valentine, Lopez, Taj, Doug, Niko, Snell, Calderon). Grant is the only player that you might argue could have a ceiling as a star but its also isn't a particularly likely ceiling to achieve.

 

So the Bulls are in a situation where they have 1 star, albeit closer to a top 10-20 in the NBA star, and a roster of role players with low ceilings. They don't have a ton of valuable assets outside of Butler that we can use to get better via trade. Can the team win 45-50 games and win a playoff series? yes. But I am not sure how they can improve much beyond that picking 15-20 every year and making modest FA improvements (because they aren't enticing a superstar with this roster).

[WrigleyField 22]

 

I had a lot of fun too, but it was always with the hope that they were going to take the next step, and it was always based on the hope that next year Derrick was going to turn into some semblance of his former self again and we could be a legitimate contender in the East.

 

how much fun did you have watching this game?

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200504240CHI.html

 

Because I had a lot of [expletive] fun that day and I'm OK with admitting that.

 

I was there. On that team we had 2 promising lottery picks, Deng in particular had a superstar ceiling or was thought at the time. There were still people that believed Curry and Chandler had some superstar potential left in them. Gordon was looking like a really good number 2. They were in really nice shape with the salary cap. Yes that team in particular was not going to win a title, but there was a ton of hope that they had their superstar developing and they were on a legit road to the title.

 

This particular team building is Jimmy Butler, whose ceiling we know, then a bunch of low ceiling role players (Valentine, Lopez, Taj, Doug, Niko, Snell, Calderon). Grant is the only player that you might argue could have a ceiling as a star but its also isn't a particularly likely ceiling to achieve.

 

So the Bulls are in a situation where they have 1 star, albeit closer to a top 10-20 in the NBA star, and a roster of role players with low ceilings. They don't have a ton of valuable assets outside of Butler that we can use to get better via trade. Can the team win 45-50 games and win a playoff series? yes. But I am not sure how they can improve much beyond that picking 15-20 every year and making modest FA improvements (because they aren't enticing a superstar with this roster).

Trade.

 

Obviously they sucked enough to get a high pick as an asset but the Celts showed that model. The Heats first title they lucked into a star with a non top 3 pick and then finished with another star in a trade. Mavs spent a long time wasting years on their non top 3 pick superstar before the right mix of trades brought them the supporting stars to bring a ship.

[bcl412]

Basically all you can do is build a solid team. In the East it takes just one upset and you could be in the finals. Good, solid teams have won championships before they don't typically win many and it is still rare. This is the most difficult sport to build a champion and my enjoyment of it doesn't really come from that.

 

But i say always try to build while leaving cap space, in the future trades could happen, injuries could happen, the conference could really fall to [expletive] like the early 2000s or even last year would have been if the Cavs weren't a thing. I can't think of many teams who've had success with a complete tank job, it's an idea that sounds better in video games or in theory than it ever actually ends up being.

 

Plus with Butler, the guy came out of no where to be what be what he is. He's still young and if he improves more you got a superstar player. Not saying it will happen but nobody expected what he is now either.

 

The problem is, there hasn't been an upset in the last 6 years in the East. LeBron goes to the finals. You can even extend that to the Celtics before that too if you want. You can't say anything can happen when anything hasn't happened in a decade. And yes, the Cavs are a thing and will be for the forseeable future, which is the point of not being good without being great.

 

Right but with the Cavs being a thing for awhile you can suck for a long time and probably build a not great team or have a not great team now but still enjoy a team like David said. Plus lebron has a lot of NBA minutes in him now. One injury to him and its wide open.

 

I still wish we got one more shot at the Heat before Rose got hurt. We weren't far front beating them in the conference finals despite what the final series tally was.

[Andy]

We had absolutely zero chance at the title in 2013, and to some extent that year was annoying because Derrick Rose refused to admit he wasn't going to play, but if you didn't enjoy the Nets series (Nate Robinson Game, Joakim Noah basically winning Game 7 by himself) and then Game 1 against the Heat, you have no joy in your heart.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The solution is to stop following the NBA with any seriousness, because David isn't wrong about having pretty much no chance at a title, but the teams that do care so little about the regular season that winning a handful of regular season games means less than ever too.

I like things like legacies and best teams ever and watching the best players ever do what they do. It's probably some Bill Simmons built BS or something but oh well. Hoping my favorite team wins a championship isn't on the top of the list of why i like NBA basketball.

 

 

To be clear, that wasn't a criticism of someone who does like the NBA, just an answer for someone in the conundrum of having a vested rooting interest that has an incredibly small chance of winning big. I like the NBA for the 2 months that decide the season(the conference finals and NBA finals), but with the competitive landscape I treat it more like the Olympics than a sport to follow day in and day out. And this is coming from someone whose favorite team(Cleveland) has one of the golden tickets to title contention.