Have the Cubs produced more Cubs position players in 2014-15 than in previous 30 years?

[Guest]

And as much as I hate to say it, does Soler really count yet?

 

I think there's enough there for me, personally, to think he will at least have a career as a competent major league regular.

 

Some might think otherwise. I know Kyle does.

 

He's 24 next Opening Day, and he's having a 0.1 fWAR season despite a .380 or whatever BABIP. He has a long way to go before he proves he belongs in the majors, let alone as a regular.

It's not a huge difference, but you're ignoring the data from last year. That does count.

[Guest]

Kyles's doom boner is harder than calculus right now. Edited August 19, 2015 by CubinNY

[ConstableRabbit]

this guy didn't read

I read what you wrote in the title, and then didn't understand why Palmeiro didn't count. So I posted that.

 

if he counts for having one halfway decent season as a regular, then rizzo and russell count as home grown. hell, theriot had better seasons as a cub.

That's kind of a weird way of posing the question, I guess. In order for it to really be "produced by the Cubs" I'd probably want the criteria to be:

+ Drafted by Cubs

+ Debuted with Cubs

+ Had X seasons in MLB as a starter for the Cubs

Yep, that would be a different interpretation. One assesses how well we draft and/or develop; the other assesses how well we draft, develop, and value? Retain?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

And as much as I hate to say it, does Soler really count yet?

 

I think there's enough there for me, personally, to think he will at least have a career as a competent major league regular.

 

Some might think otherwise. I know Kyle does.

 

He's 24 next Opening Day, and he's having a 0.1 fWAR season despite a .380 or whatever BABIP. He has a long way to go before he proves he belongs in the majors, let alone as a regular.

It's not a huge difference, but you're ignoring the data from last year. That does count.

 

That's fair. If you combine then, he's been a bench player or below-average starter. And he's not at an age where there's a ton of projection left.

 

Does he have the potential to break out? Absolutely. But it weird how there's this massive blind spot in the smarter parts of Cubs fandom about how bad he's been this year, and what that means for the *median* projection going forward.

[seanimal]

i wouldn't call it a blind spot so much as a stubborn refusal to believe that soler's true talent level is essentially replacement

[KingCubsFan]

And as much as I hate to say it, does Soler really count yet?

 

I think there's enough there for me, personally, to think he will at least have a career as a competent major league regular.

 

Some might think otherwise. I know Kyle does.

 

He's 24 next Opening Day, and he's having a 0.1 fWAR season despite a .380 or whatever BABIP. He has a long way to go before he proves he belongs in the majors, let alone as a regular.

It's not a huge difference, but you're ignoring the data from last year. That does count.

 

That's fair. If you combine then, he's been a bench player or below-average starter. And he's not at an age where there's a ton of projection left.

 

Does he have the potential to break out? Absolutely. But it weird how there's this massive blind spot in the smarter parts of Cubs fandom about how bad he's been this year, and what that means for the *median* projection going forward.

With Soler, you have to factor in the limited amount of baseball he played for a few years while he was defecting and then injured. I could see him being a late bloomer.

[JennieGarthAlgar]

This is a weird thread... maybe I'm not understanding the criteria, but didnt we produce these everyday players:

 

Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Ronny Cedeno, Ryan Theriot, Geo Soto, Sam Fuld and the like? Not world beaters or a list of super long careered guys, but so far, they have all proven more than Bryant, Schwarber, Soler.. No matter how much we all think and expect our current 3 to mash the next 15 years, they are all still working on getting a full season under their belts.

 

This thread just feels like bad karma, like its asking to be dug up from the grave in 2018 after the last of our current Can't Missers flames out... I'm sure I'm wrong.. I hope I'm wrong.. but lets just pump the breaks a bit?

[Guest]

This is a weird thread... maybe I'm not understanding the criteria, but didnt we produce these everyday players:

 

Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Ronny Cedeno, Ryan Theriot, Geo Soto, Sam Fuld and the like? Not world beaters or a list of super long careered guys, but so far, they have all proven more than Bryant, Schwarber, Soler.. No matter how much we all think and expect our current 3 to mash the next 15 years, they are all still working on getting a full season under their belts.

 

This thread just feels like bad karma, like its asking to be dug up from the grave in 2018 after the last of our current Can't Missers flames out... I'm sure I'm wrong.. I hope I'm wrong.. but lets just pump the breaks a bit?

 

That's why the thread is a question and not a declaration

[jersey cubs fan]

This is a weird thread... maybe I'm not understanding the criteria, but didnt we produce these everyday players:

 

Corey Patterson, Felix Pie, Ronny Cedeno, Ryan Theriot, Geo Soto, Sam Fuld and the like? Not world beaters or a list of super long careered guys, but so far, they have all proven more than Bryant, Schwarber, Soler.. No matter how much we all think and expect our current 3 to mash the next 15 years, they are all still working on getting a full season under their belts.

 

This thread just feels like bad karma, like its asking to be dug up from the grave in 2018 after the last of our current Can't Missers flames out... I'm sure I'm wrong.. I hope I'm wrong.. but lets just pump the breaks a bit?

 

 

The theme that the Cubs did not produce a decent position player after Grace is a much discussed topic. There's nothing weird about this thread and the karma concept is just silly. Corey Patterson was a flash in the pen whose career ended before it began no thanks to playing for exactly the wrong type of manager when he showed up. Felix Pie and Ronny Cedeno are jokes. They did nothing in the majors and may even have negative WAR. Sam Fuld is also in the middle of another trademark 0 WAR season. Theriot had a handful of acceptable seasons, whereas Soto probably had the same number, but multiple better seasons. As a catcher, whose careers tend to start late and can end early, I think he's a good enough end point where the Cubs developed their own quality position player.

 

And it was that lack of position player developmental success that made it impossible for the Cubs to succeed consistently in the MacPhail (and pre-MacPhail) era despite a huge influx of spending and a renewed investment in the system (pitching). There's nothing weird about this concept.

[SouthSideRyan]

Palmeiro was pretty good and within the last 30 years.

 

this guy didn't read

 

Maybe he read you being 50-50 on Russell and was really confused.

[NewUserName]

Grace was even an outlier. I am 52 yrs old and until recently the only Cub position players that they developed and played 3 yrs with the Cubs in my lifetime were Dunston, Grace, Soto, and Theriot. Patterson being on the fringe.

[Guest]

Grace was even an outlier. I am 52 yrs old and until recently the only Cub position players that they developed and played 3 yrs with the Cubs in my lifetime were Dunston, Grace, Soto, and Theriot. Patterson being on the fringe.

Castro?

[NewUserName]

Grace was even an outlier. I am 52 yrs old and until recently the only Cub position players that they developed and played 3 yrs with the Cubs in my lifetime were Dunston, Grace, Soto, and Theriot. Patterson being on the fringe.

Castro?

I think I had him in the recently group. But, for the first 40 or so yrs of my life it was Dunston and Grace. My guess is no other team ever was close to being this bad at drafting, developing and retaining players.

[Guest]

Grace was even an outlier. I am 52 yrs old and until recently the only Cub position players that they developed and played 3 yrs with the Cubs in my lifetime were Dunston, Grace, Soto, and Theriot. Patterson being on the fringe.

kinda sorta dwight smith

[SouthSideRyan]

Rick Wilkins

Derrick May

Doug Dascenzo

Jerome Walton

 

Not an attempt at a gotcha, just piling on to show how awful things were even when going to extremes.

[NewUserName]

Rick Wilkins

Derrick May

Doug Dascenzo

Jerome Walton

 

Not an attempt at a gotcha, just piling on to show how awful things were even when going to extremes.

I guess I didn't throw in played 3 yrs as a starter....but yes it was awful.

[biittner77]

Billy Hatcher comes to mind as a Cubs farmhand that had a decent career elsewhere. Before I knew anything about stats, I always wished the Cubs had kept Hatcher. I bring this up because the issue is not that the Cubs didn't produce any decent position players so much as they never got a lot of value out of the one's that did go on to have decent careers.

[jersey cubs fan]

Billy Hatcher comes to mind as a Cubs farmhand that had a decent career elsewhere. Before I knew anything about stats, I always wished the Cubs had kept Hatcher. I bring this up because the issue is not that the Cubs didn't produce any decent position players so much as they never got a lot of value out of the one's that did go on to have decent careers.

Also they didn't produce any/many.

[biittner77]

Billy Hatcher comes to mind as a Cubs farmhand that had a decent career elsewhere. Before I knew anything about stats, I always wished the Cubs had kept Hatcher. I bring this up because the issue is not that the Cubs didn't produce any decent position players so much as they never got a lot of value out of the one's that did go on to have decent careers.

Also they didn't produce any/many.

 

Very true. Billy Hatcher mostly sucked, yet he looked great compared to other products of the Cubs farm system. Dave Martinez hung around a long time.

[chopsx9]

Billy Hatcher comes to mind as a Cubs farmhand that had a decent career elsewhere. Before I knew anything about stats, I always wished the Cubs had kept Hatcher. I bring this up because the issue is not that the Cubs didn't produce any decent position players so much as they never got a lot of value out of the one's that did go on to have decent careers.

Eric Hinske, Rey Sanchez and Doug Glanville had a bit of post Cubs success - was Jose Hernandez originally a Cub? But, yeah they aren't plentiful.

[Guest]

Billy Hatcher comes to mind as a Cubs farmhand that had a decent career elsewhere. Before I knew anything about stats, I always wished the Cubs had kept Hatcher. I bring this up because the issue is not that the Cubs didn't produce any decent position players so much as they never got a lot of value out of the one's that did go on to have decent careers.

Stupid Palmeiro trade.

[RynoRules]

Going deeper because my age allows me to, plus it makes some sense as making the playoffs in 84' changed the franchise somewhat:

 

Mell Hall and Joe Carter?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Somewhat Succesful position players to come out of the Cubs farm system over the past 5 years:

 

As Cubs:

Bryant

Castro

Soler

Schwarber

Baez

 

As Non-Cubs

Donaldson

LaMahieu

Harrison

McGehee

Bour

Guyer

 

5 years Prior:

Corey Patterson

Geovany Soto

Ryan Theriot

 

25 years Prior:

Shawon Dunston

Rafael Palmeiro

Mark Grace

Dwight Smith

Jerome Walton