2014 NBA Offseason Thread

[Ryne Ween]

Fantastic return for one year of Love. Minnesota made a great deal with limited buyers. Had Lebron not gone to Cleveland than Minny would have gotten Taj and Butler and a meaningless 1st rounder or trash from LAL.

 

I question this decision by Cleveland. Seems like they are letting Lebron run the team again and that didn't work out last time. Is Love locked in? Whose to say Love decides he wants to be a free agent like Dwight did.

 

If Wiggins turns out to be a star this will look bad.

[Banedon]

Fantastic return for one year of Love. Minnesota made a great deal with limited buyers. Had Lebron not gone to Cleveland than Minny would have gotten Taj and Butler and a meaningless 1st rounder or trash from LAL.

 

I question this decision by Cleveland. Seems like they are letting Lebron run the team again and that didn't work out last time. Is Love locked in? Whose to say Love decides he wants to be a free agent like Dwight did.

 

If Wiggins turns out to be a star this will look bad.

 

It's not one year of Love. They have a commitment from him to opt out and sign a 5 year extension.

[UMFan83]

Fantastic return for one year of Love. Minnesota made a great deal with limited buyers. Had Lebron not gone to Cleveland than Minny would have gotten Taj and Butler and a meaningless 1st rounder or trash from LAL.

 

I question this decision by Cleveland. Seems like they are letting Lebron run the team again and that didn't work out last time. Is Love locked in? Whose to say Love decides he wants to be a free agent like Dwight did.

 

If Wiggins turns out to be a star this will look bad.

 

It's not one year of Love. They have a commitment from him to opt out and sign a 5 year extension.

 

I think (and could be wrong) he's saying that Minnesota was trading 1 year of Love (because he would have opted out and signed elsewhere) for Wiggins et al

[Guest]

The reported deal has Love making a long term commitment, though I'm not sure exactly what that entails. I would've been willing to wait until the regular season to avoid giving up Wiggins, but I get the reasons not to, and not giving up Waiters or Thompson and only sending one pick is still a pretty nice deal to make yourself championship favorites.

[Ryne Ween]

Fantastic return for one year of Love. Minnesota made a great deal with limited buyers. Had Lebron not gone to Cleveland than Minny would have gotten Taj and Butler and a meaningless 1st rounder or trash from LAL.

 

I question this decision by Cleveland. Seems like they are letting Lebron run the team again and that didn't work out last time. Is Love locked in? Whose to say Love decides he wants to be a free agent like Dwight did.

 

If Wiggins turns out to be a star this will look bad.

 

It's not one year of Love. They have a commitment from him to opt out and sign a 5 year extension.

 

I think (and could be wrong) he's saying that Minnesota was trading 1 year of Love (because he would have opted out and signed elsewhere) for Wiggins et al

 

That's what I meant, Minnesota got extremely lucky to get this haul for Love. Obviously it's not a "bad deal" for CLE because they now have stacked roster with the best player and two legit all stars. My criticism would be "what was the second best deal on the table for Love?" Presumably Minnesota had to deal with a team that Love would commit to long term. What's that 10 teams? Among those teams who could make the salaries work? Among those teams who had young talent to move? What deal out there could have possibly beaten what Cleveland could potentially put together without Wiggins?

 

And why (and I understand the pick is nearly worthless) would they need to add that 1st rounder. Surely Wiggins an Bennett would absolutely blow away any other competing offer. Wouldn't CLE want to keep that first as a sweetener to help them shed a contract or something.

 

Seems like CLE could have dictated this trade and instead gave up more than should have been necessary.

[Guest]

The reported deal has Love making a long term commitment, though I'm not sure exactly what that entails. I would've been willing to wait until the regular season to avoid giving up Wiggins, but I get the reasons not to, and not giving up Waiters or Thompson and only sending one pick is still a pretty nice deal to make yourself championship favorites.

 

i'm seeing the opt out condition is a 5 year deal worth 120 million.

[Ryne Ween]

If Lebron can win 4 titles in Cleveland I think (fairly or unfairly) he will pass mj and be considered the greatest ever.

[rawaction]

If Lebron can win 4 titles in Cleveland I think (fairly or unfairly) he will pass mj and be considered the greatest ever.

 

No. He'll never get the same kind of credit Jordan does, deservedly or not. Jordan gets credit for "making" Pippen. Nobody heard of Scottie until he became great alongside Jordan. If LeBron wins 6, it will be alongside some bonafide stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving are all top 5 picks that he will have joined after all were very good-to-elite players.

 

Plus, I feel Jordan has more of a story. LeBron was always the best. As a kid, in HS, as a rookie. Jordan was cut from his HS team, made a big shot as a freshman when he was the 3rd or 4th fiddle on his own team. He was not the #1 pick (wasn't even the #1 prospect, Olajuwon was) and joined the NBA at the highest level of talent it has ever been at.

[illiniguy]

If Lebron can win 4 titles in Cleveland I think (fairly or unfairly) he will pass mj and be considered the greatest ever.

 

No. He'll never get the same kind of credit Jordan does, deservedly or not. Jordan gets credit for "making" Pippen. Nobody heard of Scottie until he became great alongside Jordan. If LeBron wins 6, it will be alongside some bonafide stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving are all top 5 picks that he will have joined after all were very good-to-elite players.

 

Plus, I feel Jordan has more of a story. LeBron was always the best. As a kid, in HS, as a rookie. Jordan was cut from his HS team, made a big shot as a freshman when he was the 3rd or 4th fiddle on his own team. He was not the #1 pick (wasn't even the #1 prospect, Olajuwon was) and joined the NBA at the highest level of talent it has ever been at.

Scottie Pippen was also a top 5 pick.

 

I agree with everything else that you said though.

 

Scottie really gets screwed over. Hue Hollins cost him winning a title on his own. Then he would probably get the respect he really deserves.

Edited August 7, 2014 by illiniguy

[Careless]

Love going to Cleveland for Wiggins, Bennett, and a protected '15 1st.

I'm sure they had a big fight over protecting that pick.

[rawaction]

If Lebron can win 4 titles in Cleveland I think (fairly or unfairly) he will pass mj and be considered the greatest ever.

 

No. He'll never get the same kind of credit Jordan does, deservedly or not. Jordan gets credit for "making" Pippen. Nobody heard of Scottie until he became great alongside Jordan. If LeBron wins 6, it will be alongside some bonafide stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving are all top 5 picks that he will have joined after all were very good-to-elite players.

 

Plus, I feel Jordan has more of a story. LeBron was always the best. As a kid, in HS, as a rookie. Jordan was cut from his HS team, made a big shot as a freshman when he was the 3rd or 4th fiddle on his own team. He was not the #1 pick (wasn't even the #1 prospect, Olajuwon was) and joined the NBA at the highest level of talent it has ever been at.

Scottie Pippen was also a top 5 pick.

 

I agree with everything else that you said though.

 

Scottie really gets screwed over. Hue Hollins cost him winning a title on his own. Then he would probably get the respect he really deserves.

 

Yeah, Scottie was amazing. Jordan may have never won a ring if Scottie didn't completely stifle what Magic Johnson wanted to do offensively in that first finals series.

 

Pippen was a top 5 pick, but he wasn't established as a star when he joined Jordan, which was the emphasis of my point.

[Ryne Ween]

It's silly to say player X wouldn't win without player Y, because in the modern era no player, obviously, can win alone and also it's impossible for any team to be great like the bulls without other guys putting in top performances.

 

That said in te playoff of the first title Jordan had a 32 PER 60ts% and .333 ws/48. In the final series he averaged 31pts 11ast 7rbs 2.8stl 1.5blks. Taken together with the regular season it's probably the greatest basketball season by a player in the modern era.

 

To say Jordan doesn't win without Pippen is like saying the 2002 Giants don't win the pennant without Jeff Kent.

 

I am a big fan of Pippen and I don't feel like rating him highly diminishes MJ at all. But let's be fair, Pippen made a number of dream teams, made a ton of all star teams, made that one 50 greatest players ever and Bill Simmons had him around 25 in Simmons very popular and highly regarded (by others not me) book. When Pippen is brought up people say the same thing you guys are saying ie "never got his due" "Jordan needed him" etc.

 

Pippen is probably fairly rated or if anything overrated. There are many underrated players but I'm not sure Pippen is one of them.

 

As for Lebron and Jordan, they have both risen above their peers so clearly that in that way they are the same. To choose between them is probably unnecessary, however if you have to; the edge is clearly Jordan's for his team'a ability to clearly rise above the other teams in his prime era.

[Ryne Ween]

People compare the best players to Jordan that's why I bring it up. And the power of recent-cy will I think make people think Lebron is the greatest ever I he wins a few more titles.

 

Poor Shaq who is probably the second best player ver but is so annoying people forgot he was an absolute monster who dominated the league.

[SouthSideRyan]

If Lebron can win 4 titles in Cleveland I think (fairly or unfairly) he will pass mj and be considered the greatest ever.

 

No. He'll never get the same kind of credit Jordan does, deservedly or not. Jordan gets credit for "making" Pippen. Nobody heard of Scottie until he became great alongside Jordan. If LeBron wins 6, it will be alongside some bonafide stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving are all top 5 picks that he will have joined after all were very good-to-elite players.

 

Plus, I feel Jordan has more of a story. LeBron was always the best. As a kid, in HS, as a rookie. Jordan was cut from his HS team, made a big shot as a freshman when he was the 3rd or 4th fiddle on his own team. He was not the #1 pick (wasn't even the #1 prospect, Olajuwon was) and joined the NBA at the highest level of talent it has ever been at.

 

Just because it's when you grew up doesn't make the 80s the most talented the NBA has ever been

[SouthSideRyan]

recent-cy.

[Ryne Ween]

recent-cy.

 

My phones doesn't recognize the real spelling as a word so I actual assume it might not be a word. In any event my hyphenated word got the job done

 

I think everybody agrees the NBA is at it's most talented every year.

[mul21]

Pippen took a team of nobody but him and Kukoc to the ECF and should have gone to the finals if not for a phantom foul call. Kukoc was really good and Grant was solid, but that team had absolutely nothing else. Pippen was absolutely great. Now, I think you can certainly question how great he would have been had he not been "tutored" by Jordan, because I think he was one of a few guys Jordan actually helped improve instead of just breaking them like he did most of his teammates (Rodney McRay in particular comes to mind).

[Ryne Ween]

Pippen took a team of nobody but him and Kukoc to the ECF and should have gone to the finals if not for a phantom foul call. Kukoc was really good and Grant was solid, but that team had absolutely nothing else. Pippen was absolutely great. Now, I think you can certainly question how great he would have been had he not been "tutored" by Jordan, because I think he was one of a few guys Jordan actually helped improve instead of just breaking them like he did most of his teammates (Rodney McRay in particular comes to mind).

 

They lost in 7 games in the ECF semis. There are many many teams that have won one playoff series and very nearly won a second.

 

That accomplishment is getting a bit overblown. And let's not forget that the bulls were down 2-0 and losing game 3 with a few seconds left and pippen refused to enter the game. So this is a weak crowning achievement.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Ryne Ween

[rawaction]

If Lebron can win 4 titles in Cleveland I think (fairly or unfairly) he will pass mj and be considered the greatest ever.

 

No. He'll never get the same kind of credit Jordan does, deservedly or not. Jordan gets credit for "making" Pippen. Nobody heard of Scottie until he became great alongside Jordan. If LeBron wins 6, it will be alongside some bonafide stars. Wade, Bosh, Love, Irving are all top 5 picks that he will have joined after all were very good-to-elite players.

 

Plus, I feel Jordan has more of a story. LeBron was always the best. As a kid, in HS, as a rookie. Jordan was cut from his HS team, made a big shot as a freshman when he was the 3rd or 4th fiddle on his own team. He was not the #1 pick (wasn't even the #1 prospect, Olajuwon was) and joined the NBA at the highest level of talent it has ever been at.

 

Just because it's when you grew up doesn't make the 80s the most talented the NBA has ever been

 

It's the most talented the NBA has ever been because 16 of the top 50 players were in the league when Jordan started (including the ones in his class)....and they were shortly joined by Robinson, Pippen, Ewing, and K Malone.

[Bobson Dugnutt]

By now, we should probably stop referencing the 50 greatest players ever list that came out in 1997.

[Ryne Ween]

By now, we should probably stop referencing the 50 greatest players ever list that came out in 1997.

 

I think it's adequate to gauge The level of appreciation for pippens game in his era.

[rawaction]

By now, we should probably stop referencing the 50 greatest players ever list that came out in 1997.

 

Why? Who wasn't eligible for the list that would be on it if you took it to current? LeBron? Duncan? Kobe? Reggie Miller? Who else?

[Bobson Dugnutt]

By now, we should probably stop referencing the 50 greatest players ever list that came out in 1997.

 

I think it's adequate to gauge The level of appreciation for pippens game in his era.

 

Oh sure. I was referring to the post above mine that seems to use that list as an argument as to why the 80's was the greatest era ever.

[seanimal]

Pippen was a top 5 pick, but he wasn't established as a star when he joined Jordan, which was the emphasis of my point.

 

is anyone this side of mj or lebron an established star before they play a single game at the professional level?

[rawaction]

By now, we should probably stop referencing the 50 greatest players ever list that came out in 1997.

 

I think it's adequate to gauge The level of appreciation for pippens game in his era.

 

Oh sure. I was referring to the post above mine that seems to use that list as an argument as to why the 80's was the greatest era ever.

 

So you're argument that it's not is what?