Really exciting discussion of Indiana hoops transfer ethics

[Derwood]

Starting this thread was a huge mistake.

 

Lol

[Exile on Waveland]

 

"Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in."

 

"Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in."

 

Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

 

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream.

 

Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves.

 

Once or twice, huh? Interesting.

 

In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

[illiniguy]

 

"Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in."

 

"Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in."

 

Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

 

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream.

 

Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves.

 

Once or twice, huh? Interesting.

 

In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

How many of our guys have publically bitched about getting ran off? Hell even Dan Dakich called you guys out on Matt Roth.

[manbearcub]

Who cares what bottom half BigTen programs do anyway?

[illiniguy]

Who cares what bottom half BigTen programs do anyway?

Well played. How was the NCAA experience for you, top halfer?

[Exile on Waveland]

 

"Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in."

 

"Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in."

 

Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

 

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream.

 

Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves.

 

Once or twice, huh? Interesting.

 

In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

How many of our guys have publically bitched about getting ran off? Hell even Dan Dakich called you guys out on Matt Roth.

 

Dakich attempts to rile up IU fans in order to increase ratings. It's his schtick.

 

Regardless, Roth is a unique situation. Roth was on scholarship at IU for four years, earned a bachelor's and a master's degree for free, and participated in senior night festivities at the end of his fourth year. He, however, could have earned an extra year as a medical redshirt because he only played two games his sophomore season. Was this fair/what duty does a program have to players beyond their fourth year? I'm not really sure; I'm of two minds. Part of me thinks a player should be able to continue playing as long as he can (not their fault they were injured); the other part thinks four years is a full commitment and it could be a hardship scholarship-wise if the injury happened a senior year (coaches recruit players to replace their seniors).

 

As for the complaints, here is Matt Roth:

 

Coach Crean and the whole coaching staff did a great job of keeping me in the loop, helping me as a person, not just as an athlete. Obviously, the scholarship situation didn't work out in my favor. Prior to the end of the school year and our meetings, they were very positive. They wanted me to keep building my game and train, even if it was on my own. At the same time, they wanted to help me in any way possible, whether that was play somewhere else or play overseas in a certain league here or there. They did make those options available and offered a lot of support.

(see http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/matt-roth-defends-tom-crean-decision-not-renew-143015529--ncaab.html). And even after Roth's departure, at least as of last year, he was coaching at Crean's camps and appearing at a fundraiser in Fort Wayne with Crean (http://hoosierhoopla.blogspot.com/2012/08/on-matt-roth-creans-team-outlook-btn-vs.html).

 

Patterson complained, I suppose, before the IU-Syracuse game, but Patterson has no one to blame but himself. Further, if player complaints are dispositive of unfair treatment, then I guess Capobianco wasn't "Creaned" since he has not complained.

Edited April 11, 2013 by Exile on Waveland

[UK1679666180]

Dominique Hawkins to Kentucky today so they're at 8 Freshmen, with maybe 1 more to go?

 

Unless there's something hiding out there, Wiggins is the only other possibility. I was surprised they offered him, he has ties with UK (Estill is his cousin) and if UK didn't offer was headed to WKU. He definitely won't be a one and done.

[SouthSideRyan]

Look guys, nobody transferred from Indiana when they had 2 guys on scholarship so stop being such meanies. Burn Hoosiers Burn.

 

And to clarify, the 19 kids that jumped off the sinking ship that was Indiana dumpster fire basketball when that weirdo took over don't count, but some phantom 4th guy does count for Illinois.

 

ETA: You don't see the connection between paragraph one and paragraph 2?

 

Matt Roth wrote:

Coach Crean and the whole coaching staff did a great job of keeping me in the loop, helping me as a person, not just as an athlete. Obviously, the scholarship situation didn't work out in my favor. Prior to the end of the school year and our meetings, they were very positive. They wanted me to keep building my game and train, even if it was on my own. At the same time, they wanted to help me in any way possible, whether that was play somewhere else or play overseas in a certain league here or there. They did make those options available and offered a lot of support.

 

(see http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the ... ncaab.html). And even after Roth's departure, at least as of last year, he was coaching at Crean's camps and appearing at a fundraiser in Fort Wayne with Crean (http://hoosierhoopla.blogspot.com/2012/ ... tn-vs.html).

[Exile on Waveland]

Look guys, nobody transferred from Indiana when they had 2 guys on scholarship so stop being such meanies. Burn Hoosiers Burn.

 

And to clarify, the 19 kids that jumped off the sinking ship that was Indiana dumpster fire basketball when that weirdo took over don't count, but some phantom 4th guy does count for Illinois.

 

ETA: You don't see the connection between paragraph one and paragraph 2?

 

Matt Roth wrote:

Coach Crean and the whole coaching staff did a great job of keeping me in the loop, helping me as a person, not just as an athlete. Obviously, the scholarship situation didn't work out in my favor. Prior to the end of the school year and our meetings, they were very positive. They wanted me to keep building my game and train, even if it was on my own. At the same time, they wanted to help me in any way possible, whether that was play somewhere else or play overseas in a certain league here or there. They did make those options available and offered a lot of support.

 

(see http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the ... ncaab.html). And even after Roth's departure, at least as of last year, he was coaching at Crean's camps and appearing at a fundraiser in Fort Wayne with Crean (http://hoosierhoopla.blogspot.com/2012/ ... tn-vs.html).

 

1. I did not count the first off-season when Crean took the IU job because in a previous conversation you said that did not count as a real off-season. Regardless, I think we both know those players leaving were a completely different situation. You don't think Crean wanted Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett to stick around? They, uh, might have played a little bit on that 6-25 team. Just a bit, ya think?

 

2. Yes, absolutely. I'm certain that Roth (correctly) believed it was in his best interests to play the good soldier and reap the benefits of being a former IU player in Indiana. I'm certain he wishes he could have played a fifth year (was that deserved? I don't know, maybe.). But that quote/link rebuts the claims about Roth complaining, which is why I mentioned it.

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

[Magnetic Curses]

 

"Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in."

 

"Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in."

 

Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

 

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream.

 

Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves.

 

Once or twice, huh? Interesting.

 

In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

 

of course you have to count roth and patterson.

 

you're also being disingenuous when you talk about the transfers in Groce's first full year. yeah, of course that's when the kids he didn't recruit are going to leave. when else are they going to leave? what i'm saying is that this serial overrecruiting isn't going to happen under his watch.

[Exile on Waveland]

what i'm saying is that this serial overrecruiting isn't going to happen under his watch.

 

We'll see about that. As snood said, this isn't unique to IU. If Illinois has the chance, I'm pretty darn certain they'll do the same. That's the way college athletics go now.

[SouthSideRyan]

It was just phone calls

[Magnetic Curses]

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

 

berardini was a walk-on that completed his degree. he's never played, but can transfer somewhere and play immediately because he has another year of eligibility. if he can get a grad degree paid for by going to a mid-major and playing, that would be awesome for him.

[CubColtPacer]

 

"Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in."

 

"Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in."

 

Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

 

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream.

 

Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves.

 

Once or twice, huh? Interesting.

 

In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

 

of course you have to count roth and patterson.

 

you're also being disingenuous when you talk about the transfers in Groce's first full year. yeah, of course that's when the kids he didn't recruit are going to leave. when else are they going to leave? what i'm saying is that this serial overrecruiting isn't going to happen under his watch.

 

Patterson has admitted he didn't make grades even in his second chance summer school situation. He had to average a 2.0, which he wasn't quite able to do. He thinks that he didn't get a 3rd chance because of the scholarship situation (and he might be right), but if he had just made good enough grades in either of his chances he would be on the team right now. Could the basketball team have fought a little harder for him? Probably...it wouldn't be the first situation where a sports player got special treatment. Are they obligated to do that though?

[Guest]

Well done on the thread title change.

[Exile on Waveland]

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

 

berardini was a walk-on that completed his degree. he's never played, but can transfer somewhere and play immediately because he has another year of eligibility. if he can get a grad degree paid for by going to a mid-major and playing, that would be awesome for him.

 

Fair enough. He shouldn't count.

[Exile on Waveland]

 

"Hey Billy, I know you were recruited to play at this university by another coach, but you should transfer so I can get my own future recruits in."

 

"Hey Johnny, I know you were recruited to play at this university by me, but you should transfer so I can get my own current recruits in."

 

Man, I bet Billy is glad he didn't end up like that sucker Johnny.

 

well, Billy should have given more consideration to the very real possibility of his coach being canned or of leaving for another job. Just one part of the decision-making process. Of course Johnny could always be considered culpable for being a terrible judge of character himself, but his coach blatantly misled in him in selling him what he thought was a dream.

 

Johnny's coach is a pathological scumbag that can never be trusted and will do the same thing over and over and over at the same school. The coach that cuts Billy only does so once or twice, whenever he moves.

 

Once or twice, huh? Interesting.

 

In Groce's first (full) off-season as coach, Illinois already has had four players transfer. In Crean's five (full) off-seasons, so far Indiana has had four transfers (five if you want to count Matt Roth; heck, six if you want to count Ron Patterson). So which program is doing a worse job fulfilling its obligations to student-athletes?

 

of course you have to count roth and patterson.

 

you're also being disingenuous when you talk about the transfers in Groce's first full year. yeah, of course that's when the kids he didn't recruit are going to leave. when else are they going to leave? what i'm saying is that this serial overrecruiting isn't going to happen under his watch.

 

Patterson has admitted he didn't make grades even in his second chance summer school situation. He had to average a 2.0, which he wasn't quite able to do. He thinks that he didn't get a 3rd chance because of the scholarship situation (and he might be right), but if he had just made good enough grades in either of his chances he would be on the team right now. Could the basketball team have fought a little harder for him? Probably...it wouldn't be the first situation where a sports player got special treatment. Are they obligated to do that though?

 

That and, you know, the whole honor code thing.

[scarey]

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

 

berardini was a walk-on that completed his degree. he's never played, but can transfer somewhere and play immediately because he has another year of eligibility. if he can get a grad degree paid for by going to a mid-major and playing, that would be awesome for him.

 

Fair enough. He shouldn't count.

 

So Sandi Marcius doesn't count either? I just want to get thejudgement on it now before people accuse Painter later on down the road. You are the judge and jury on these matters, correct?

[SouthSideRyan]

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

 

berardini was a walk-on that completed his degree. he's never played, but can transfer somewhere and play immediately because he has another year of eligibility. if he can get a grad degree paid for by going to a mid-major and playing, that would be awesome for him.

 

Fair enough. He shouldn't count.

 

So Sandi Marcius doesn't count either? I just want to get thejudgement on it now before people accuse Painter later on down the road. You are the judge and jury on these matters, correct?

 

If anyone would know...

[Exile on Waveland]

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

 

berardini was a walk-on that completed his degree. he's never played, but can transfer somewhere and play immediately because he has another year of eligibility. if he can get a grad degree paid for by going to a mid-major and playing, that would be awesome for him.

 

Fair enough. He shouldn't count.

 

So Sandi Marcius doesn't count either? I just want to get thejudgement on it now before people accuse Painter later on down the road. You are the judge and jury on these matters, correct?

 

Was Marcius a walk-on?

 

Are we really going to have a debate that players offered scholarships are different than players that walk on? I mean, really?

[scarey]

 

3. I counted four Illinois transfers by using this: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/22007798/transfer-list-first-edition. I'm not sure I've heard of those players besides Mike Shaw and perhaps there's a nuance that I'm missing (just because Illinois fans wear tinfoil hats as they obsess over the program to their east, doesn't mean IU fans do the same). I don't know who Illinois' thirteenth man is.

 

berardini was a walk-on that completed his degree. he's never played, but can transfer somewhere and play immediately because he has another year of eligibility. if he can get a grad degree paid for by going to a mid-major and playing, that would be awesome for him.

 

Fair enough. He shouldn't count.

 

So Sandi Marcius doesn't count either? I just want to get thejudgement on it now before people accuse Painter later on down the road. You are the judge and jury on these matters, correct?

 

Was Marcius a walk-on?

 

Are we really going to have a debate that players offered scholarships are different than players that walk on? I mean, really?

 

He redshirted and was going into his 5th year. What is your judgement?

[SouthSideRyan]

It was pretty shameful what Indiana did with Daniel Moore.

[Exile on Waveland]

He redshirted and was going into his 5th year. What is your judgement?

 

Whatever your judgment about Roth is.

[scarey]

He redshirted and was going into his 5th year. What is your judgement?

 

Whatever your judgment about Roth is.

 

But... I'm not the guy to make those calls. I thought that was you. I wouldn't want to sound like I'm rationalizing anything.

[Exile on Waveland]

He redshirted and was going into his 5th year. What is your judgement?

 

Whatever your judgment about Roth is.

 

But... I'm not the guy to make those calls. I thought that was you. I wouldn't want to sound like I'm rationalizing anything.

 

I've only argued for consistent application of Creaning/Painting/Grocing, not a specific application (though it seems pretty clear applying any standards to walk-ons is illogical, even farcical). Players are wont to transfer. Some will do so because they want more playing time, some to be closer to home, some because their coach told them to, some because they're annoyed about their ex-girlfriend's tweet. If one wants to construe all one's team's transfers into the first two categories, while construing all one's rival's transfers into the third category, that's fine. But it's intellectually dishonest.

 

Further, rationalizing is merely defined as "offering a reasonable explanation for something." If you explain the Marcuis situation, you are rationalizing it. When I explain the Roth situation, I am rationalizing it. Rationalizing does not negate truthfulness or accuracy. The issue with rationalizing is that Illinois fans have rationalized their transfers -- then baldly claimed they were not doing so! -- while not allowing any rationalization of Indiana transfers.