Cubs after Anibal Sanchez? (Signs with Tiger 5/$80mil)

[Guest]

Seems like it should be difficult to honestly make jokes about waiting for waves of young players to make a move when we're in a thread where it's obvious the Cubs made a significant effort to sign a top free agent to a 5 year deal. The narrative can't be "maybe it's a bad idea to wait on waves of minor league players and the right free agents becoming Cubs at the same time" AND "jeez when are they going to close a deal on this top talent they keep going after?", it's not intellectually honest in the least.

 

Yes, it's really irritating to have this many false positives about moves I'd/we'd have been happy to see completed. At the same time, it's pretty clear now that they're not done this offseason, and 2-3 shrewd moves have this team looking like a pretty decent team that's a small step from competing for a playoff berth. The Rizzo trade was made right before Christmas last year, the Marshall trade in early January. Jackson, Liriano, Marcum, and Bourn are still available in free agency. There's no need for an endless peanut gallery of half-truths coming out every time the Cubs don't acquire someone that would have been a nice addition.

 

You know, it's frustrating to feel like a spastic goof every time I get pisisy and you write a perfectly level headed response to my aggravation :)

 

I need to hire you to be my life coach, TT

 

I feel the same way as TT, I just can't post as eloquently, nor do I have the e-patience he has.

[Rob]

Seems like it should be difficult to honestly make jokes about waiting for waves of young players to make a move when we're in a thread where it's obvious the Cubs made a significant effort to sign a top free agent to a 5 year deal. The narrative can't be "maybe it's a bad idea to wait on waves of minor league players and the right free agents becoming Cubs at the same time" AND "jeez when are they going to close a deal on this top talent they keep going after?", it's not intellectually honest in the least.

 

Yes, it's really irritating to have this many false positives about moves I'd/we'd have been happy to see completed. At the same time, it's pretty clear now that they're not done this offseason, and 2-3 shrewd moves have this team looking like a pretty decent team that's a small step from competing for a playoff berth. The Rizzo trade was made right before Christmas last year, the Marshall trade in early January. Jackson, Liriano, Marcum, and Bourn are still available in free agency. There's no need for an endless peanut gallery of half-truths coming out every time the Cubs don't acquire someone that would have been a nice addition.

 

You know, it's frustrating to feel like a spastic goof every time I get pisisy and you write a perfectly level headed response to my aggravation :)

 

I need to hire you to be my life coach, TT

 

I feel the same way as TT, I just can't post as eloquently, nor do I have the e-patience he has.

 

Same.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a few people take a break from the transactions board. It's not like they post anything thoughtful or interesting.

[ScrubMD]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

[XZero771679666304]

Supposedly he signed 5/$80MM with Tigers.

 

Nightengale from Anibal's agent.

 

I don't normally wish injury on players, but I kind of hope his arm falls off now just to screw the Tigers for signing him.

 

Why? His agent did his job and his first choice was to stay in Detroit. It's our front office's job to not get off the phone without a deal and make sure they don't get used for leverage

 

I'm pretty sure that in the real world, the "don't get off the phone until you have a deal" thing doesn't actually happen. You can't force the other party to agree, you can only disengage if you feel you're being used.

 

I suppose you could adopt a strategy of blowing the competition's offers so far out of the water that there's little chance of a counter, but I'm not so sure that'd be a great business practice.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I suppose you could adopt a strategy of blowing the competition's offers so far out of the water that there's little chance of a counter, but I'm not so sure that'd be a great business practice.

 

I vote for "making your team more attractive to free agents by not being terrible."

 

The participation award is a little encouraging, but the fact that they failed is just as discouraging. They are clearly intelligent, but baseball is deeply competitive and it's not easy to overcome a lot of setbacks. And there's no denying there have been a ton of setbacks in the last 18 months.

[Tracer Bullet]

Setbacks? You're saying there are things that have happened in the last 18 months that have significantly negatively impacted the plan for this organization? And you're saying a ton of these things have happened?

 

If so, I disagree.

[illiniguy]

Shoot that sucks to lose him over a million a year. Oh well, not gonna hit the panic button by any means. I imagine we target Edwin Jackson now?

[Tracer Bullet]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

 

I'm quite sure it's not the same thing. When you're paying Soriano a billion dollars more than anyone else is offering, you can definitely say "I need an immediate answer" and you will obviously get one bc people like money. But you can't make a perfectly reasonable offer to a guy that would prefer to sign with a team that was just in the WS and say the same thing. You'd lose credibility and not get the deal done anyway.

[XZero771679666304]

I suppose you could adopt a strategy of blowing the competition's offers so far out of the water that there's little chance of a counter, but I'm not so sure that'd be a great business practice.

 

I vote for "making your team more attractive to free agents by not being terrible."

 

The participation award is a little encouraging, but the fact that they failed is just as discouraging. They are clearly intelligent, but baseball is deeply competitive and it's not easy to overcome a lot of setbacks. And there's no denying there have been a ton of setbacks in the last 18 months.

 

 

Again, if your team has to be attractive to induce FAs to sign, how do sign the FAs that make your team more attractive? Quite the conundrum you're proposing.

 

The Cubs have never had an issue signing FAs (when they want to), even when they've been terrible. For all the lip service players pay to winning, in the end it's always about the money.

 

As for the current situation, I'm a little disappointed at losing out on Sanchez, but I'm saving the real angst for the end of the offseason, if by then a comparable acquisition isn't made.

[Guest]

Shoot that sucks to lose him over a million a year. Oh well, not gonna hit the panic button by any means. I imagine we target Edwin Jackson now?

Yes, I'd think so.

[davell]

No one wants to hear excuses, especially on the 3 deals that were reported, then fell thru. Including me. Even if in each case one "could" be made. The "what if" card sucks. But I know this: There would be a hell of a lot less bitching and moaning about things on here if we HAD acquired Delgado and traded Garza to Texas for Olt, likely Perez or Buckel, and likely more. Those 2 deals could easily have changed our outlook on this offseason. It IS frustrating, not only to us, but the FO as well.

[ScrubMD]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

 

I'm quite sure it's not the same thing. When you're paying Soriano a billion dollars more than anyone else is offering, you can definitely say "I need an immediate answer" and you will obviously get one bc people like money. But you can't make a perfectly reasonable offer to a guy that would prefer to sign with a team that was just in the WS and say the same thing. You'd lose credibility and not get the deal done anyway.

 

The Soriano contract was signed before Theo and Jed came along.

[seanimal]

Seems like it should be difficult to honestly make jokes about waiting for waves of young players to make a move when we're in a thread where it's obvious the Cubs made a significant effort to sign a top free agent to a 5 year deal.

 

hahaha

 

you fell for it to?

 

I'm starting to think this is performance art.

 

yeah, he's a real andy kaufman

[XZero771679666304]

 

I'm quite sure it's not the same thing. When you're paying Soriano a billion dollars more than anyone else is offering, you can definitely say "I need an immediate answer" and you will obviously get one bc people like money. But you can't make a perfectly reasonable offer to a guy that would prefer to sign with a team that was just in the WS and say the same thing. You'd lose credibility and not get the deal done anyway.

 

Exactly. The only way to ensure you don't get off the phone w/o a commitment is to destroy the competition's offer(s). If your offer is in the ballpark of the others, they're going to call around to see if anyone else will match/surpass.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Setbacks? You're saying there are things that have happened in the last 18 months that have significantly negatively impacted the plan for this organization? And you're saying a ton of these things have happened?

 

If so, I disagree.

 

I'm saying a significant number of things have happened in the last 18 months that negatively impact the organization's chances of winning the World Series in the future. I'm not sure whether it being part of their plan or not is relevant.

 

Pretty much that entire wave of "near-ready useful parts" that we were supposed to have turned out to either suck or got shipped elsewhere for little or nothing.

 

The most valuable trade chip in the organization was overplayed and lost probably half his value, maybe more, in Matt Garza.

 

The 2011 draft class bats had a great showing, but a lot of the lower minors pitching got hurt or had setbacks.

 

We proved we were capable of major scouting fails with the Concepcion debacle. We got destroyed every which way on the Ian Stewart trade both in foresight (Ian Stewart is awful) and hindsight (Colvin and LeMahieu aren't bad).

 

In 1.5 offseasons, we've added precisely one significant long-term piece above A-ball.

 

The dumpster diving skill seems to have left them. In that first year in Boston, Epstein and Co. famously picked up for scraps or nothing David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, Kevin Millar, Bronson Arroyo and Javy Lopez, and I'm probably missing a few. With the same effort this year (and even more opportunity because of the sorry state of the roster), we got Shawn Camp and Arodys Vizcaino.

 

There's simply no way they can be completely happy with the way the last 18 months have gone. Sure, they piled up a lot of prospects. It's pretty much impossible not to when you throw the kind of resources they have at it. But a lot has gone wrong.

Edited December 14, 2012 by Hairyducked Idiot

[ScrubMD]

That said, our rotation with Garza, Haren, Sanchez, Delgado is going to be pretty badass.

[Guest]

I'm curious as to what agent's negotiation tactics end up crossing the line with GM's. Granted, Boras is in a class all of his own, and his lengthy list of impressive clients allows him to do whatever he wants.

 

But, when a GM flies across country to meet and work on a deal and then that agent uses those numbers only as the breaking point for any contending team to match or beat. I guess since he managed an extra 5m for his client, he can argue that someone offered a better deal, but it seems a bit unethical.

 

I'm not crazy about Sanchez either way. Just curious what kind of frame of mind Theo would be in when he was possibly used as a pawn.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I'm curious as to what agent's negotiation tactics end up crossing the line with GM's. Granted, Boras is in a class all of his own, and his lengthy list of impressive clients allows him to do whatever he wants.

 

But, when a GM flies across country to meet and work on a deal and then that agent uses those numbers only as the breaking point for any contending team to match or beat. I guess since he managed an extra 5m for his client, he can argue that someone offered a better deal, but it seems a bit unethical.

 

I'm not crazy about Sanchez either way. Just curious what kind of frame of mind Theo would be in when he was possibly used as a pawn.

 

It's totally unethical. But until the supply of good pitching exceeds the demand, there's not much GMs can do about it.

[XZero771679666304]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

 

I'm quite sure it's not the same thing. When you're paying Soriano a billion dollars more than anyone else is offering, you can definitely say "I need an immediate answer" and you will obviously get one bc people like money. But you can't make a perfectly reasonable offer to a guy that would prefer to sign with a team that was just in the WS and say the same thing. You'd lose credibility and not get the deal done anyway.

 

The Soriano contract was signed before Theo and Jed came along.

 

What does that have to do with anything? It was a prime example of what he was talking about. The Cubs offered Soriano so much that he couldn't pass it up. That sort of strategy is the only way to ensure you get an immediate agreement.

 

That Theo/Jed didn't sign him is irrelevant to what he was saying.

[Tracer Bullet]

When I'm selling insurance, I tell the customer "This is going to end up costing us money, you won't find another deal like it. But you have to say yes before we get off the phone today." Jed and Theo need to do that.

 

I'm not sure it's the same thing.

 

I'm quite sure it's not the same thing. When you're paying Soriano a billion dollars more than anyone else is offering, you can definitely say "I need an immediate answer" and you will obviously get one bc people like money. But you can't make a perfectly reasonable offer to a guy that would prefer to sign with a team that was just in the WS and say the same thing. You'd lose credibility and not get the deal done anyway.

 

The Soriano contract was signed before Theo and Jed came along.

 

I'm well aware of that.

[SouthSideRyan]

Not happy that the deal didn't happen, but I'm happy to see them be so aggressive with a decent free agent. In the end, it sounds like Sanchez didn't want to come to the Cubs anyways and who can blame him. His options were to stay on a team that was in the world series last year and has made some improvements or go to a team that lost 100 games and hasn't made any significant moves to improve.

 

The 100 losses happened for a reason

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Again, if your team has to be attractive to induce FAs to sign, how do sign the FAs that make your team more attractive? Quite the conundrum you're proposing.

 

It's not a simple binary "can sign FAs" or "can't sign FAs." You can make things harder or easier on yourself on a whole continuum.

 

If they sign Edwin Jackson or I guess even Shawn Marcum to medium-term deals, I'll consider it a wash. But competing in 2014 is going to take an amazing effort from them starting pretty much yesterday, and every piece off the board makes the hurdle that much higher.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm curious as to what agent's negotiation tactics end up crossing the line with GM's. Granted, Boras is in a class all of his own, and his lengthy list of impressive clients allows him to do whatever he wants.

 

But, when a GM flies across country to meet and work on a deal and then that agent uses those numbers only as the breaking point for any contending team to match or beat. I guess since he managed an extra 5m for his client, he can argue that someone offered a better deal, but it seems a bit unethical.

 

I'm not crazy about Sanchez either way. Just curious what kind of frame of mind Theo would be in when he was possibly used as a pawn.

 

It's totally unethical. But until the supply of good pitching exceeds the demand, there's not much GMs can do about it.

 

In what way is it unethical to use an offer from one club to try and get another club to offer more?

[treebird]

what on earth is unethical about that?

 

also, i loooove how mad some people are getting about the jokes. they're not crazy funny at this point, but there's some truth there, which i guess is why people flip out and try to shout them down. things aren't going great. it's okay to acknowledge it.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It's totally unethical. But until the supply of good pitching exceeds the demand, there's not much GMs can do about it.

 

In what way is it unethical to use an offer from one club to try and get another club to offer more?

 

It's unethical to lie, which in this case means either telling the Cubs you have a deal or telling them you will have a deal if they offer a certain amount.

 

That appears to be what happened here.