2012 Draft Day Thread + Cubs Picks Discussion

[TruffleShuffle]

Truffle, there's a much different leverage here. Football and basketball both have true rookie slotting scales. It's much more cut and dry. You get picked 8th, you get THAT money or you don't play. Baseball gave teams the ability to allocate more money to different picks, if they choose to. They also don't have a cut and dry system in place that says if you're in the draft, that's you're only option. Yeah, an NBA player can technically go overseas and play, but it's not a regular development, by any means.

 

i'm not talking about rookie (new draftee) scales, i'm talking about salary caps in general. the nfl and nhl have hard salary caps. many teams come very close to their cap limit. they have the exact same incentive to cheat (pay players under the table, etc) that MLB teams have with newly-drafted players. yet these things generally do not happen.

 

there was an aussie rules football team that was found to be committing serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap during the early 2000s. the league took away the #1 and #2 overall picks in one draft, plus their second and third round picks, then their top two picks the next year, and also some picks for an overage draft. and fined that club almost a million dollars. that team ended up being awful for another five years and needed a loan from the league to keep from going under. while it's not MLB, this is the kind of thing that happens to teams that knowingly flaunt a hard and fast rule.

[davell]

To me, the difference is there's been a cap in place for a pretty long time. Caveat being, I know absolutely nothing about hockey at all, so I can't speak for them. Since there's never been a cap in baseball, on any real level(luxury tax is the closest thing) I can see a much different reaction to playing under completely new rules.

[Guest]

@KTVBSportsGuy OF Izaac Garsez signed his contract with the @Cubs tonight. Ike was drafted in the 30th round of the #MLBdraft yesterday."

[Guest]

You guys may know better (if so, tell me, too!). But I have no idea about what kind of limits the new cba has on the types of contractual deals that are acceptable. At present all we hear is that about dollar limits.

 

But in past all kinds of various individualized perks have been included in deals. Ben Wells goes on the 40-man at a certain time. Samardz got a big-league contract. Szczur became a free agent after one year. Kirk had a clause where his parents get like three team-paid weekend trips to watch him play. In the majors Boras has often included indulgences like private rooms, plane trips to visit family, etc. etc.. The most important draft one has been college tuition.

 

Has all of that been ruled out? Even the scholarships? Or is there stuff that can be done to enrich the contract that won't count on the cap?

No big league contracts or guaranteed 40-man roster spots. I don't know about the other stuff.

[TruffleShuffle]

To me, the difference is there's been a cap in place for a pretty long time. Caveat being, I know absolutely nothing about hockey at all, so I can't speak for them. Since there's never been a cap in baseball, on any real level(luxury tax is the closest thing) I can see a much different reaction to playing under completely new rules.

 

the NHL had no salary cap, salary floor, luxury tax or revenue sharing arrangement prior to the lockout. after the lockout it had a hard salary cap. below is the list of teams that have been caught or accused of cheating to circumvent this relatively new, drastically different arrangement:

 

http://www.crctlessons.com/images/empty-set.jpg

[CyHawk_Cub]

Truffle, there's a much different leverage here. Football and basketball both have true rookie slotting scales. It's much more cut and dry. You get picked 8th, you get THAT money or you don't play. Baseball gave teams the ability to allocate more money to different picks, if they choose to. They also don't have a cut and dry system in place that says if you're in the draft, that's you're only option. Yeah, an NBA player can technically go overseas and play, but it's not a regular development, by any means.

 

i'm not talking about rookie (new draftee) scales, i'm talking about salary caps in general. the nfl and nhl have hard salary caps. many teams come very close to their cap limit. they have the exact same incentive to cheat (pay players under the table, etc) that MLB teams have with newly-drafted players. yet these things generally do not happen.

 

there was an aussie rules football team that was found to be committing serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap during the early 2000s. the league took away the #1 and #2 overall picks in one draft, plus their second and third round picks, then their top two picks the next year, and also some picks for an overage draft. and fined that club almost a million dollars. that team ended up being awful for another five years and needed a loan from the league to keep from going under. while it's not MLB, this is the kind of thing that happens to teams that knowingly flaunt a hard and fast rule.

 

Does the Saints bounty program count (as a way of circumventing the salary cap)? :D j/k of course

[Guest]

I forget the name of Pujols' agent. But does his sliminess count for this argument? For some reason, Boras may be above reproach. But that guy is a slimeball that would do whatever made him more money in the short term.

[Guest]

I forget the name of Pujols' agent. But does his sliminess count for this argument? For some reason, Boras may be above reproach. But that guy is a slimeball that would do whatever made him more money in the short term.

Dan Lozano.

[CyHawk_Cub]

I forget the name of Pujols' agent. But does his sliminess count for this argument? For some reason, Boras may be above reproach. But that guy is a slimeball that would do whatever made him more money in the short term.

Dan Lozano.

 

Yeah, dude likes to party & pay girls to do stuff.

[sweetpeteman]

To me, the difference is there's been a cap in place for a pretty long time. Caveat being, I know absolutely nothing about hockey at all, so I can't speak for them. Since there's never been a cap in baseball, on any real level(luxury tax is the closest thing) I can see a much different reaction to playing under completely new rules.

 

the NHL had no salary cap, salary floor, luxury tax or revenue sharing arrangement prior to the lockout. after the lockout it had a hard salary cap. below is the list of teams that have been caught or accused of cheating to circumvent this relatively new, drastically different arrangement:

 

http://www.crctlessons.com/images/empty-set.jpg

 

1. NJ Devils were fined $3 mil, and lost two draft picks, for Kovalchuk's original contract offer.

 

I would imagine that MLB teams will find loopholes much the same way NHL teams did with the long-term contracts (ex: DiPietro, Hossa).

[TruffleShuffle]

ok, that did happen. they certainly weren't the first team to do that kind of deal - flyers did it with pronger, isles with dipietro (lol), etc. but the devils were just so obvious about it because the last few years of the contract he would have been getting paid like the league minimum while still playing at age 45.

 

i agree that teams will try to manipulate the rules and find loopholes, as the devils did with kovalchuk. you can already see that happening with late-round talents being drafted early in order to free up money for overslot signings. that's different than what davell is asserting, which is that teams will blatantly violate the caps by paying players under the table or showering them with cars or houses.

[Guest]

FWIW, Wiseman seems really happy to have been drafted by the Cubs.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view/20220607cubs_select_wiseman_late/srvc=sports&position=also

 

“I was actually walking into the tuxedo shop, picking up my tux for my prom tonight when I got the call,” the Massachusetts Gatorade Player of the Year said.

 

Though he was scooped up by the Cubs more than 20 rounds after he was projected to be taken — he was ranked as the 136th best prospect by Baseball America — the center fielder was ecstatic just to be drafted.

 

“You work your whole life to get drafted as a baseball player,” Wiseman said. “I was so honored, I was so humbled, and the Cubs are a great organization. I’m just so impressed with the people that run the Cubs from behind the scenes and the organization itself. To know that I was drafted by a team like the Cubs — not only a respected organization, but run by very, very respectable people — I was definitely humbled.”

 

Wiseman, who committed to Vanderbilt when he was 15 and plans on playing for the Commodores next year, was hitting .444 with eight home runs, 24 RBI and 26 runs scored for BB&N through last Friday. The 6-foot-2 senior noted he would be wearing an unconventional item in all of his prom pictures.

 

“I’ll show up to prom pictures with my Cubbies hat on, and it’s going to be tough for anyone to take it off my head tonight, that’s for sure.”

[Sammy Sofa]

"Cubbies?"

 

They've made a huge mistake.

[Infrequent Poster]

Sign Soler. Call Almora and say here's slot. Take it or leave it. If you want to take the risk that in 3 years, you're still a top 6 pick, more power to you.

 

This is my take as well

 

That's very short-sighted, especially since Almora is universally considered better than Soler. You might be squabbling over mere hundreds of thousands of dollars that probably won't screw up the rest of your draft and the Cubs probably won't get as good a player in next year's draft since they'll go the safer route to avoid risking not signing next year's 7th overall with no compensation in 2014.

 

Teams get an extra year of protection for compensation picks for failure to sign draftees from the first three rounds. For example, the Blue Jays get the 22nd pick in 2012 after not signing No. 21 overall choice Tyler Beede in 2011. If Toronto can't come to terms with the compensation selection, it would get another one in 2013.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/draft/news/2012/2612723.html

[davell]

Truffle, I certainly hope you're right and definitely respect your position on this. I guess what's got me thinking the worst has to do with the whole IFA game. Who knows what Texas may have done in the Jairi Beras situation, for instance? They could have forged a birth certificate possibly, hid him from every other team, acted honestly and the kid did it all, or who knows? But it's fishy. If things get crazy with IFA's, I guess I automatically think it could get bad with the draft as well.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Almora is not "universally considered" better than Soler.

[Guest]

Truffle, I certainly hope you're right and definitely respect your position on this. I guess what's got me thinking the worst has to do with the whole IFA game. Who knows what Texas may have done in the Jairi Beras situation, for instance? They could have forged a birth certificate possibly, hid him from every other team, acted honestly and the kid did it all, or who knows? But it's fishy. If things get crazy with IFA's, I guess I automatically think it could get bad with the draft as well.

Latin America is completely different from from the draft.

[Guest]

Sign Soler. Call Almora and say here's slot. Take it or leave it. If you want to take the risk that in 3 years, you're still a top 6 pick, more power to you.

 

This is my take as well

 

That's very short-sighted, especially since Almora is universally considered better than Soler. You might be squabbling over mere hundreds of thousands of dollars that probably won't screw up the rest of your draft and the Cubs probably won't get as good a player in next year's draft since they'll go the safer route to avoid risking not signing next year's 7th overall with no compensation in 2014.

 

Teams get an extra year of protection for compensation picks for failure to sign draftees from the first three rounds. For example, the Blue Jays get the 22nd pick in 2012 after not signing No. 21 overall choice Tyler Beede in 2011. If Toronto can't come to terms with the compensation selection, it would get another one in 2013.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/draft/news/2012/2612723.html

I stand corrected. Thanks and welcome to the board!

[davell]

I agree with that. But with things changing, all it'd take is one.....

[jersey cubs fan]

Truffle, there's a much different leverage here. Football and basketball both have true rookie slotting scales. It's much more cut and dry. You get picked 8th, you get THAT money or you don't play.

 

You are overstating the cut and dry nature, at least as it pertains to how the NFL system is now set-up. (that's also a brand new system that was never in place before.

[davell]

Am I? I'm pretty sure there is a slot number that can't be exceeded, right? I guess teams can fall under it, but tge main point is players get drafted in accordance with their talent level(short of getting in trouble beforehand) because they're firmly IN the draft, without other true options.

[jersey cubs fan]

Am I? I'm pretty sure there is a slot number that can't be exceeded, right? I guess teams can fall under it, but tge main point is players get drafted in accordance with their talent level(short of getting in trouble beforehand) because they're firmly IN the draft, without other true options.

 

There are parameters within the contract that are negotiated, including total guarantees. If it was just so easily cut and dried you wouldn't still have half the guys drafted in the first round still unsigned.

[davell]

It's still quite a bit different than what MLB has going on. Players ARE drafted in accordance to talent here, unlike baseball. That's the main point.

[jersey cubs fan]

It's still quite a bit different than what MLB has going on. Players ARE drafted in accordance to talent here, unlike baseball. That's the main point.

 

The better guys are still generally picked higher and everybody has a different interpretation of the best. NFL teams also have drastic differences in ratings with some teams taking QBs, for example, much sooner than anybody else would because they are desperate for a QB. And again, this system is brand new. They had plenty of years with no hard slotting at all.

[TruffleShuffle]

Truffle, I certainly hope you're right and definitely respect your position on this. I guess what's got me thinking the worst has to do with the whole IFA game. Who knows what Texas may have done in the Jairi Beras situation, for instance? They could have forged a birth certificate possibly, hid him from every other team, acted honestly and the kid did it all, or who knows? But it's fishy. If things get crazy with IFA's, I guess I automatically think it could get bad with the draft as well.

 

i have no idea who jairi belas is, but do you really think that an mlb team is going to forge a birth certificate? now we're not just talking unethical, we've moved into criminal behavior. the punishment that would come down upon an mlb organization that forges a birth certificate for a player would be mind-boggling. i think you're really ignoring how much the potential punishment is a disincentive to cheating. getting a talented 18 year old player is not worth having years of high draft picks stripped away. and yes, cheating would come out, because generally 18 year olds aren't so great at keeping a secret.