Hoyer, McLeod officially join Cubs

[Bull]

Carlos Pena + two good starting pitchers probably helps this team as much for 2012 as Pujols/Fielder + one good starting pitcher.

Would you be dumping Z in that scenario or simply not giving Wells / Cashner / Shark / etc. a place in the rotation?

 

Assuming we dump Zambrano. The difference between Pena and Pujielder, assuming a very good year from them, is still only 3 or 4 wins.

 

I prefer Fieljols

[dew1679666265]

Interesting stats. I didn't realize his offensive stats rated out that well. For kicks I looked at other pitchers combined WAR and saw that Dontrell Willis had a combined WAR of 1.7 last year (or only .2 lower than Big Z). :lol:

 

Haha, yeah Dontrelle has always been a good hitter I think. Had the Cubs kept Dontrelle and had him and Z in the lineup, it would've been Maddux/Glavine all over again (except they wouldn't have pitched as well).

 

It's easy to overlook a big part of Z's production, though, since almost no other pitcher provides much/any positive offensive value.

[CUBZ99]

Finally got home and got to listen to the Press Conference and Hoyer's interview on CSN. I am really impressed with Hoyer's attitude and plan for the future.

 

One thing that I am really surprised that hasn't been receiving any criticism and/or discussion is how much time he spent talking about intangibles. During the CSN interview he spent almost the last 2 mins talking about the importance of having a clubhouse full of character guys and team players. He talked about teamwork being extremely important and changing the culture of the team. I was surprised how much he emphasized chemistry as a key factor in putting together a successful team.

 

What is the general consensus:

 

1) He should get a pass because he is new and has won before; or

 

2) He doesn't believe what he is saying, but simply pacifying the average fan; or

 

3) something else?

Edited November 2, 2011 by CUBZ99

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Carlos Pena + two good starting pitchers probably helps this team as much for 2012 as Pujols/Fielder + one good starting pitcher.

 

i'm not particularly excited to watch the 2012 cubs in which no position player slugs .500

 

I don't know how Cubbie Carmine weighs your excitement, so it's hard to figure that in to my projections.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Finally got home and got to listen to the Press Conference and Hoyer's interview on CSN. I am really impressed with Hoyer's attitude and plan for the future.

 

One thing that I am really surprised that hasn't been receiving any criticism and/or discussion is how much time he spent talking about intangibles. During the CSN interview he spent almost the last 2 mins talking about the importance of having a clubhouse full of character guys and team players. He talked about teamwork being extremely important and changing the culture of the team. I was surprised how much he emphasized chemistry as a key factor in putting together a successful team.

 

What is the general consensus:

 

1) He should get a pass because he is new and has won before; or

 

2) He doesn't believe what he is saying, but simply pacifying the average plan; or

 

3) something else?

 

3) something else - he means people who are like that who are *also good at baseball*. That's kind of implied, but a lot of people miss it.

[Guest]

Finally got home and got to listen to the Press Conference and Hoyer's interview on CSN. I am really impressed with Hoyer's attitude and plan for the future.

 

One thing that I am really surprised that hasn't been receiving any criticism and/or discussion is how much time he spent talking about intangibles. During the CSN interview he spent almost the last 2 mins talking about the importance of having a clubhouse full of character guys and team players. He talked about teamwork being extremely important and changing the culture of the team. I was surprised how much he emphasized chemistry as a key factor in putting together a successful team.

 

What is the general consensus:

 

1) He should get a pass because he is new and has won before; or

 

2) He doesn't believe what he is saying, but simply pacifying the average fan; or

 

3) something else?

All front office guys talk about that stuff. His actions will speak as to what he really believes.

[USSoccer]

Carlos Pena + two good starting pitchers probably helps this team as much for 2012 as Pujols/Fielder + one good starting pitcher.

 

i'm not particularly excited to watch the 2012 cubs in which no position player slugs .500

 

I don't know how Cubbie Carmine weighs your excitement, so it's hard to figure that in to my projections.

 

It means that if the grand plan is to find pissant platoon situations and reclamation projects, and we pass on anyone good offensively and try and build around free agent pitching, we're going to blow.

[davell]

I think Hoyer is another guy who looks at everything before making a decision. If there are 2 guys who are close, then maybe he looks at the intangibles more in those cases. I think he played some sort of college ball himself, so maybe he holds the whole dugout cohesion thing in high regard. I'm not worried at all about those comments though.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It means that if the grand plan is to find pissant platoon situations and reclamation projects, and we pass on anyone good offensively and try and build around free agent pitching, we're going to blow.

 

You are incredibly overrating how much of an impact losing Aramis Ramirez has.

[dew1679666265]

You had it right when you said "that's not a good offense". Holy crap, that team would lose 90 games.

 

Not if we got some good development from guys like Castro and Headley (just now hitting his prime and was around a .500 SLG guy in the minors) and got healthy, bounceback years from Sizemore and Soto. It'd be a high risk team that could lose 90 games, but the rotation would be the best in the league hands-down and the offense would have some upside.

[ConstableRabbit]

You had it right when you said "that's not a good offense". Holy crap, that team would lose 90 games.

 

Not if we got some good development from guys like Castro and Headley (just now hitting his prime and was around a .500 SLG guy in the minors) and got healthy, bounceback years from Sizemore and Soto. It'd be a high risk team that could lose 90 games, but the rotation would be the best in the league hands-down and the offense would have some upside.

Sounds like a Padres team to me.

[USSoccer]

It means that if the grand plan is to find pissant platoon situations and reclamation projects, and we pass on anyone good offensively and try and build around free agent pitching, we're going to blow.

 

You are incredibly overrating how much of an impact losing Aramis Ramirez has.

 

And you're being incredibly optimistic over how likely it is to replace his offensive production with a platoon, Carlos Pena and hopes and dreams.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

You had it right when you said "that's not a good offense". Holy crap, that team would lose 90 games.

 

Not if we got some good development from guys like Castro and Headley (just now hitting his prime and was around a .500 SLG guy in the minors) and got healthy, bounceback years from Sizemore and Soto. It'd be a high risk team that could lose 90 games, but the rotation would be the best in the league hands-down and the offense would have some upside.

 

Is that offense that much worse than this one?

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2010.shtml

[Hairyducked Idiot]

And you're being incredibly optimistic over how likely it is to replace his offensive production with a platoon, Carlos Pena and hopes and dreams.

 

The Cubs were an average offense last year. Losing Ramirez is not going to send it into some sort of death spiral.

[USSoccer]

You had it right when you said "that's not a good offense". Holy crap, that team would lose 90 games.

 

Not if we got some good development from guys like Castro and Headley (just now hitting his prime and was around a .500 SLG guy in the minors) and got healthy, bounceback years from Sizemore and Soto. It'd be a high risk team that could lose 90 games, but the rotation would be the best in the league hands-down and the offense would have some upside.

 

We have a 130 million dollar payroll in the 3rd biggest market in the country, are you kidding me? We're not the San Diego Padres; we shouldn't have to rely on "if" and "upside" to put together a competent offense.

[USSoccer]

And you're being incredibly optimistic over how likely it is to replace his offensive production with a platoon, Carlos Pena and hopes and dreams.

 

The Cubs were an average offense last year. Losing Ramirez is not going to send it into some sort of death spiral.

 

Average basically because of Ramirez and Castro, right?

[davearm2]

Finally got home and got to listen to the Press Conference and Hoyer's interview on CSN. I am really impressed with Hoyer's attitude and plan for the future.

 

One thing that I am really surprised that hasn't been receiving any criticism and/or discussion is how much time he spent talking about intangibles. During the CSN interview he spent almost the last 2 mins talking about the importance of having a clubhouse full of character guys and team players. He talked about teamwork being extremely important and changing the culture of the team. I was surprised how much he emphasized chemistry as a key factor in putting together a successful team.

 

What is the general consensus:

 

1) He should get a pass because he is new and has won before; or

 

2) He doesn't believe what he is saying, but simply pacifying the average fan; or

 

3) something else?

I will forever be amazed at how these concepts are immediately dismissed as nonsensical around here.

[toonsterwu]

Totally off topic, but reading the tweet from Olney about the Yankees willing to talk pitching makes me wonder what they might give up to get Matt Garza? Garza's number 2 on my list in terms of guys that I don't think should be dealt ... but if they offer a boatload, it would be ... interesting as they have the chips to offer.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Average basically because of Ramirez and Castro, right?

 

Pena, Soriano and Fukudome also had above-average OPS, and Soto and Byrd were just a tick below.

 

The offense doesn't really have any bad players on it, position adjusted.

[Guest]

Average basically because of Ramirez and Castro, right?

 

Pena, Soriano and Fukudome also had above-average OPS, and Soto and Byrd were just a tick below.

 

The offense doesn't really have any bad players on it, position adjusted.

RF ended up terrible overall for the team.

 

We're hoping BJackson fixes that, though.

[USSoccer]

Average basically because of Ramirez and Castro, right?

 

Pena, Soriano and Fukudome also had above-average OPS, and Soto and Byrd were just a tick below.

 

The offense doesn't really have any bad players on it, position adjusted.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm already on record in stating I'm factoring in emotion over reason, and I do believe that not having Aramis around makes selling Prince/Pujols on Chicago slightly more difficult. I see the numbers; I think Aramis is worth trying to bring back provided it's not ridiculous terms.

 

That said, if we let him sign elsewhere, and then pass on those guys for hoping Grady Sizemore isn;t broken, Wilson and some random MVP2005 CPU generated 3B option, I'm going to be right pissed and I'll predict we suck next year.

Edited November 2, 2011 by USSoccer

[dew1679666265]

We have a 130 million dollar payroll in the 3rd biggest market in the country, are you kidding me? We're not the San Diego Padres; we shouldn't have to rely on "if" and "upside" to put together a competent offense.

 

Which is why I've been one of the most vocal supporters on this board of bringing in one of Pujols/Prince for months now. However, if worse comes to worse and we somehow miss out on both Pujols/Prince, then bringing in two stud pitchers is better than overpaying for an oft-injured 34 year old third baseman who's likely to decline soon.

[ConstableRabbit]

Average basically because of Ramirez and Castro, right?

 

Pena, Soriano and Fukudome also had above-average OPS, and Soto and Byrd were just a tick below.

 

The offense doesn't really have any bad players on it, position adjusted.

 

We're going to have to agree to disagree. I'm already on record in stating I'm factoring in emotion over reason, and I do believe that not having Aramis around makes selling Prince/Pujols on Chicago slightly more difficult. I see the numbers; I think Aramis is worth trying to bring back provided it's not ridiculous terms.

 

That said, if we let him sign elsewhere, and then pass on those guys for Grady Sizemore, Yu Darvish and some random MVP2005 CPU generated 3B option, I'm going to be right pissed and I'll predict we suck next year.

Preach!

[USSoccer]

We have a 130 million dollar payroll in the 3rd biggest market in the country, are you kidding me? We're not the San Diego Padres; we shouldn't have to rely on "if" and "upside" to put together a competent offense.

 

Which is why I've been one of the most vocal supporters on this board of bringing in one of Pujols/Prince for months now. However, if worse comes to worse and we somehow miss out on both Pujols/Prince, then bringing in two stud pitchers is better than overpaying for an oft-injured 34 year old third baseman who's likely to decline soon.

 

Refresh my memory-aside from Wilson, who's the other stud SP out there as a FA? (don't say Sabathia)

[Vanilla Ice]

Average basically because of Ramirez and Castro, right?

 

Pena, Soriano and Fukudome also had above-average OPS, and Soto and Byrd were just a tick below.

 

The offense doesn't really have any bad players on it, position adjusted.

Holy ish, I didn't realize offense was so far down at 2B league wide .258/.319/.380/699 (at least NL)