Aramis Ramirez’s 2012 Option Does NOT Vest if He’s Traded

[XZero771679666304]

3 times in the last decade the cubs have gone from being truly terrible to contending for the division, but yeah let's just write off next year.

 

I gave up on hope a long time ago. Unless we get Fielder or Pujols there will be no reason to be excited about next year's team. They'll likely bring back a lot of the same cogs from this year but they'll be a year older. Whooptie doo.

 

Also, if we don't get one of those two guys we won't have a guy capable of carrying an offense like Sammy did in 2001. And we won't have another Mark Prior to mow down batters at the front of our rotation. And we won't have....... an.... Alfonso Soriano? I don't know why 2007 was such a success. Point is, those teams had players on them that gave the Cubs clout and a reason for the fans to be hopeful. Without Pujols or Fielder what is there to look forward to except maybe the premiere of guys like Brett Jackson?

 

We have a ton of money coming off the books, a good group of cheap young supporting cast, 3/5 of a good rotation and perhaps most importantly, we play in a mediocre division.

 

If we totally whiff on the offseason, then I can see writing 2012 off. But to do so now is silly.

[SouthSideRyan]

So you think we'll be dropping our payroll about 40M

[dew1679666265]

can someone explain to me why we want to trade arguably the best player on this [expletive] team?

 

I'm one of those who believe we can compete next year, but I'm not opposed to an Aramis deal. The key is we'd have to get a really impressive haul for him if we're going to trade him. I've said before that I'd go to the Yankees and begin by asking for Jesus Montero and build a deal around him. If they're not interested, and no team is willing to part with a top prospect or two for Aramis, then we keep him.

 

Aramis has been one of the best players on the team this year, but he is getting a little older and has struggled with injuries of late. I still think he can be a very productive third baseman next year, but I also think we can get average to above average production out of something like a Flaherty/Baker platoon at third as well. If Aramis were to bring back a really impressive haul, that drop in production would be a lot more acceptable next year - especially if we got back Montero, who could immediately slot into third and hopefully work on his defense some this year.

[dew1679666265]

Bruce Miles seems to disagree

 

BruceMiles2112

On #Cubs Ramirez, language states that 2012 option kicks in if he exercises 2011 option (he did) and is traded at any time of the contract

2 hours ago

 

I'll take what Bruce Miles says over anybody.

[questionmarkgrace]

cubs.com is now reporting that if he is traded his option automatically vests. But that he is not interested in being traded.

 

 

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110718&content_id=21957962&notebook_id=21959486&vkey=notebook_chc&c_id=chc

[Little Slide Rooter]

Aramis has said that he'll veto any trade to any team. Aight Mr. Cub Jr., put your money where your mouth is. I say they void that 16 mil option and offer him a 3 year 25 mil deal with some decent incentives. Lets see once and for all if he really loves being a Cub or just isnt in the mood to relocate.

[TruffleShuffle]

Aramis has said that he'll veto any trade to any team. Aight Mr. Cub Jr., put your money where your mouth is. I say they void that 16 mil option and offer him a 3 year 25 mil deal with some decent incentives. Lets see once and for all if he really loves being a Cub or just isnt in the mood to relocate.

 

would that contract include the option to turn down the contract and go take a not-ridiculous offer from another major league team?

[SouthSideRyan]

Aramis has said that he'll veto any trade to any team. Aight Mr. Cub Jr., put your money where your mouth is. I say they void that 16 mil option and offer him a 3 year 25 mil deal with some decent incentives. Lets see once and for all if he really loves being a Cub or just isnt in the mood to relocate.

 

I'D PLAY FOR FREE, HE SHOULD PLAY FOR THE MINIMUM, HE'S PLAYING A GAME FOR A LIVING!!!!!

[BeerHere]

According to this article, his option vests if he's traded. Why is this so hard to figure out? I don't understand why the media can't get it right.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-ramirez-not-interested-in-being-traded-right-now-20110718,0,4929224.story

[Illini Iceman]

According to this article, his option vests if he's traded. Why is this so hard to figure out? I don't understand why the media can't get it right.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/chi-ramirez-not-interested-in-being-traded-right-now-20110718,0,4929224.story

 

Not the media, just Levine. And he rarely gets anything right so it shouldn't be a surprise.

[utkcub]

In my opinion, you build your entire team around Castro and Ramirez

 

Keep:

Castro

Ramirez

Barney

Soto

Garza

Dempster

Cashner

Byrd (Clubhouse reasons)

 

Expendable:

Pena

Soriano

Fukudome

Wells

Zambrano

[dew1679666265]

In my opinion, you build your entire team around Castro and Ramirez

 

Keep:

Castro

Ramirez

Barney

Soto

Garza

Dempster

Cashner

Byrd (Clubhouse reasons)

 

Expendable:

Pena

Soriano

Fukudome

Wells

Zambrano

 

I'd keep Wells simply because he's still cheap and would have no value in a trade at this point. Give him the offseason to recuperate and hope he comes back better next year. I'd also only trade Z and Soriano if I got good offers. Soriano is highly overpaid, but his production would still be difficult to replace. Z has been really good the past two seasons and, unless he really comes on strong the rest of the season, likely wouldn't garner his worth in trade.

 

I agree with your keep list, though as I said before if I got bowled over by an offer I'd be open to dealing Ramirez. I also wouldn't hand Barney a starting job. Make it an open competition between him, Baker, Flaherty, and LeMahieu and go from there.

[Bote McBoteface]

Why not trade Barney? Sure he'd probably only net us a middle reliever or something, but will his value ever be really higher than that? I doubt he's our second baseman in our next playoff appearance.

[TruffleShuffle]

Why not trade Barney? Sure he'd probably only net us a middle reliever or something, but will his value ever be really higher than that? I doubt he's our second baseman in our next playoff appearance.

 

none of the multitude of potential 2b in our system can play adequate shortstop, and barney serves as good insurance in case starlin gets hurt or needs a day off. i guess you could always bite the bullet and hope that flaherty or lemahieu hit enough at ss to negate their bad defense there.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Why not trade Barney? Sure he'd probably only net us a middle reliever or something, but will his value ever be really higher than that? I doubt he's our second baseman in our next playoff appearance.

 

none of the multitude of potential 2b in our system can play adequate shortstop, and barney serves as good insurance in case starlin gets hurt or needs a day off. i guess you could always bite the bullet and hope that flaherty or lemahieu hit enough at ss to negate their bad defense there.

 

I don't know much about Marwin Gonzalez or Jonathon Motas defense, but would either of them be adequate backups?

[SouthSideRyan]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

[BeerHere]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

I don't get the Barney hate. Sure I love to see more OBP, maybe some pop but he's making the league minimum, plays good defense and hits .300 I would love to get more production out of 2B but with so many other glaring issues and aging/high priced turds with this club I'm not going to hate this kid.

[TruffleShuffle]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

I don't get the Barney hate. Sure I love to see more OBP, maybe some pop but he's making the league minimum, plays good defense and hits .300 I would love to get more production out of 2B but with so many other glaring issues and aging/high priced turds with this club I'm not going to hate this kid.

 

how many times has he hit .300 during the course of a minor or major league season? hint: the answer is not greater than zero.

 

but what SSR was not "hating" barney. utility infielders have value. people hated theriot and wanted him to go away; nobody is sying that we should get barney off the team and replace him with whoever is lying around.

[Guest]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

I don't get the Barney hate. Sure I love to see more OBP, maybe some pop but he's making the league minimum, plays good defense and hits .300 I would love to get more production out of 2B but with so many other glaring issues and aging/high priced turds with this club I'm not going to hate this kid.

 

how many times has he hit .300 during the course of a minor or major league season? hint: the answer is not greater than zero.

 

but what SSR was not "hating" barney. utility infielders have value. people hated theriot and wanted him to go away; nobody is sying that we should get barney off the team and replace him with whoever is lying around.

I think many (of the most vocal) people here are overcritical of Barney, especially in his rookie season. However, besides his defense (which is already pretty good) the only way he will really be useful as a starter is to be a good on-base guy. If he can't do that he's probably role player.

[dew1679666265]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

I don't get the Barney hate. Sure I love to see more OBP, maybe some pop but he's making the league minimum, plays good defense and hits .300 I would love to get more production out of 2B but with so many other glaring issues and aging/high priced turds with this club I'm not going to hate this kid.

 

I don't hate Barney. However, I also want the best production we can get out of second base and we have a number of kids in the minors (Flaherty, LeMaheieu primarily) who have the potential to outperform Barney and possibly by quite a bit. I'm in favor of giving them that opportunity.

 

I also agree with SSR and Truffle that utility guys can have great value on a team and Barney can be very good in that role, even though he's a mediocre starter.

Edited July 19, 2011 by dew

[jersey cubs fan]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

I don't get the Barney hate. Sure I love to see more OBP, maybe some pop but he's making the league minimum, plays good defense and hits .300 I would love to get more production out of 2B but with so many other glaring issues and aging/high priced turds with this club I'm not going to hate this kid.

 

how many times has he hit .300 during the course of a minor or major league season? hint: the answer is not greater than zero.

 

but what SSR was not "hating" barney. utility infielders have value. people hated theriot and wanted him to go away; nobody is sying that we should get barney off the team and replace him with whoever is lying around.

I think many (of the most vocal) people here are overcritical of Barney, especially in his rookie season. However, besides his defense (which is already pretty good) the only way he will really be useful as a starter is to be a good on-base guy. If he can't do that he's probably role player.

 

Who are these most vocal people? The thing I've heard the most is essentially they don't want the Cubs to turn Barney into Theriot 2.0. That is, don't hand the guy a starting job based on a short period of competence and then get yourself committed to overpaying him because he's some scrappy fan favorite. Barney is perfectly fine as a role player, just like Theriot was perfectly fine as a role player. Don't count on him to be a dependable top of the order starter at 2B in the future. Do view him as a useful asset.

[CubColtPacer]

There's nothing wrong with keeping Barney around as long as he's kept around as a utility IF, not a starting 2B

I don't get the Barney hate. Sure I love to see more OBP, maybe some pop but he's making the league minimum, plays good defense and hits .300 I would love to get more production out of 2B but with so many other glaring issues and aging/high priced turds with this club I'm not going to hate this kid.

 

how many times has he hit .300 during the course of a minor or major league season? hint: the answer is not greater than zero.

 

but what SSR was not "hating" barney. utility infielders have value. people hated theriot and wanted him to go away; nobody is sying that we should get barney off the team and replace him with whoever is lying around.

I think many (of the most vocal) people here are overcritical of Barney, especially in his rookie season. However, besides his defense (which is already pretty good) the only way he will really be useful as a starter is to be a good on-base guy. If he can't do that he's probably role player.

 

Who are these most vocal people? The thing I've heard the most is essentially they don't want the Cubs to turn Barney into Theriot 2.0. That is, don't hand the guy a starting job based on a short period of competence and then get yourself committed to overpaying him because he's some scrappy fan favorite. Barney is perfectly fine as a role player, just like Theriot was perfectly fine as a role player. Don't count on him to be a dependable top of the order starter at 2B in the future. Do view him as a useful asset.

 

I don't get the Theriot 2.0 reference. The Cubs handled Theriot almost perfectly. They didn't hand him the starting job to start 2007. They squeezed two good seasons out of him in 2008 and 2009. They made it very clear in his arbitration hearing that they didn't feel he was worth a lot of money. When a better SS came up, they moved him off the position, and then quickly traded him after that. Theriot's a great example of how you handle a player like that.

[dew1679666265]

I don't get the Theriot 2.0 reference. The Cubs handled Theriot almost perfectly. They didn't hand him the starting job to start 2007. They squeezed two good seasons out of him in 2008 and 2009. They made it very clear in his arbitration hearing that they didn't feel he was worth a lot of money. When a better SS came up, they moved him off the position, and then quickly traded him after that. Theriot's a great example of how you handle a player like that.

 

How they handled him in a general sense was fine. However, he hit in the 2nd spot in the order way more than he should have - as Barney probably has to this point this year.

 

In 2007, Theriot had a .326 OBP and had more than 400 PAs in the top two spots in the order with less than 100 everywhere else. Again in 2009 with a .343 OBP, he had around 600 PAs in the top two spots. The Cubs using him when he was cheap and shipping him out when he got expensive was fine, just like keeping Barney around as a useful player while he's cheap is fine. However, it was the pattern of usage while he was here that was the problem.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't get the Theriot 2.0 reference. The Cubs handled Theriot almost perfectly. They didn't hand him the starting job to start 2007. They squeezed two good seasons out of him in 2008 and 2009. They made it very clear in his arbitration hearing that they didn't feel he was worth a lot of money. When a better SS came up, they moved him off the position, and then quickly traded him after that. Theriot's a great example of how you handle a player like that.

 

He was an everyday player at the top of the lineup when he sucked.

[CubColtPacer]

I don't get the Theriot 2.0 reference. The Cubs handled Theriot almost perfectly. They didn't hand him the starting job to start 2007. They squeezed two good seasons out of him in 2008 and 2009. They made it very clear in his arbitration hearing that they didn't feel he was worth a lot of money. When a better SS came up, they moved him off the position, and then quickly traded him after that. Theriot's a great example of how you handle a player like that.

 

He was an everyday player at the top of the lineup when he sucked.

 

Well, I get the top of the lineup thing. I would agree that's the one big blemish they had with Theriot. Theriot deserved to be an everyday player though. For the 4 years the Cubs played him (from August 2006 to July 2010) BR has him as a 1.3 win player per year and fangraphs has him at a 2.2 win player per year. That's really nice value for a cheap everyday player. Then the Cubs managed to upgrade right as Theriot was starting to become more expensive.