Reed Johnson: Is he for real?

[Sammy Sofa]

Don't make it so black and white. Of course OFs have to do some split-second calculating and decide whether the chance of catching the ball justifies the chance of missing it and adding an extra base.

 

My point is that Soriano never even does that math, because he seems unwilling to make contact with the wall regardless of the chances of catching the ball. So balls that other guys would go for, and half the time catch, he gives up on.

 

So, wait, is this something you're going to back up only through anecdotal evidence? Because a player routinely giving up on balls they could catch would be something that, y'know, wouldn't just escape defensive metrics.

[Sammy Sofa]

I can certainly live with Soriano not being a defensive whiz.

 

It's the lazy I can't live with.

 

He displays both.

 

So you think he regularly gives up on balls he should catch and regularly detrimentally loafs on plays (presumably turning singles into doubles and doubles into triples)?

[Guest]

The overriding point here is that Soriano giving up on balls that he and every other outfielder have like a 5-20% chance of getting to is being painted as the chasm between him and being an acceptable defensive outfielder, when in actuality it's the thing keeping him from being well above average defensively or dare I say, elite. Quite a few people aren't able to get past that when Soriano doesn't do something right, it looks awkward, so that must extrapolate to him being a hideous defender in all aspects. Incorrect.

[Sammy Sofa]

The overriding point here is that Soriano giving up on balls that he and every other outfielder have like a 5-20% chance of getting to is being painted as the chasm between him and being an acceptable defensive outfielder, when in actuality it's the thing keeping him from being well above average defensively or dare I say, elite. Quite a few people aren't able to get past that when Soriano doesn't do something right, it looks awkward, so that must extrapolate to him being a hideous defender in all aspects. Incorrect.

 

Well said.

[XZero771679666304]

The not going full speed after balls that bounce away and loafing when chasing down balls in the gap bothers me as well, but I don't want the guy going into the wall much at all, because he'd just be making things worse. I don't want to see him laying out, either.

[SouthSideRyan]

I don't notice loafing after balls in the gap. The noticable slow downs from Soriano are playing balls off the wall because he doesn't play bounces well.

[davearm2]

I can certainly live with Soriano not being a defensive whiz.

 

It's the lazy I can't live with.

 

He displays both.

 

So you think he regularly gives up on balls he should catch and regularly detrimentally loafs on plays (presumably turning singles into doubles and doubles into triples)?

Correct. I think Soriano's defense would be quantifiably better (as measured by the various defensive metrics) if he gave a better effort in the field.

 

Whether that would move him from below average to average, or from above average to elite is beside the point. The point is he could and would be better just simply by trying harder.

 

This phenomenon seems to manifest itself most clearly on balls hit over his head. He'll run in and dive for balls hit in front of him. But rarely do I see him going all out for balls hit over his head.

Edited June 28, 2011 by davearm2

[XZero771679666304]

I don't notice loafing after balls in the gap. The noticable slow downs from Soriano are playing balls off the wall because he doesn't play bounces well.

 

Yeah, I guess a lot of it is just because he looks so awkward out there. More than anything, I feel bad for him because I think he's really uncomfortable as an outfielder. I will maintain that I see him half-assing when running down balls sometimes, but he's not the disaster some people want to make him out to be.

[Sammy Sofa]

I don't notice loafing after balls in the gap. The noticable slow downs from Soriano are playing balls off the wall because he doesn't play bounces well.

 

Yeah, I really don't know what people are talking about when they say he loafs after grounders or hits in the gap. He's slowed down in general, but I think it's just how he runs. He has this weird gallop that just doesn't "look" very fast for a guy with his reputation for speed. I remember when he was still stealing bases I never thought he actually looked very fast.

 

But I could easily be wrong, since this is based off of the usually lame "eye check."

[Sammy Sofa]

Correct. I think Soriano's defense would be quantifiably better (as measured by the various defensive metrics) if he gave a better effort in the field.

 

Whether that would move him from below average to average, or from above average to elite is beside the point. The point is he could and would be better just simply by trying harder.

 

This phenomenon seems to manifest itself most clearly on balls hit over his head. He'll run in and dive for balls hit in front of him. But rarely do I see him going all out for balls hit over his head.

 

Because those are the hardest balls to catch and judge and he's not a very good OF and "going all out" would likely make things worse.

[treebird]

soriano already gets hurt all the time. if he'd prefer to not run into a brick wall repeatedly, i think that's probably a good decision.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Maybe he should just play deeper.

[XZero771679666304]

soriano already gets hurt all the time. if he'd prefer to not run into a brick wall repeatedly, i think that's probably a good decision.

 

It's along the same lines as my not wanting to see ARam sprint full speed out of the box every time he puts the ball in play. Giving 110% isn't always what you want. "Old school" types can't abide by that sort of thinking, but it's more pragmatic.

[jersey cubs fan]

soriano already gets hurt all the time. if he'd prefer to not run into a brick wall repeatedly, i think that's probably a good decision.

 

It's along the same lines as my not wanting to see ARam sprint full speed out of the box every time he puts the ball in play. Giving 110% isn't always what you want. "Old school" types can't abide by that sort of thinking, but it's more pragmatic.

 

At the same time, if you suck, you better try really hard because you getting injured isn't going to hurt the team.

[Backtobanks]

It's more the "20 feet" thing. That's goofy.

 

Your right he doesn't "quit" on a ball 20 feet from a wall, he just slows down to a slow trot on anything hit toward a wall so he doesn't get there to crash into the wall and plays it after it hits the ground or the wall.

 

Sure, why not?

You are confused about why an OF would want to try hard to catch a batted ball on the fly?

 

Not at all. Any player is going to avoid crashing into a wall if they can. And BtB description is ridiculous because he's trying to make it sound like Soriano is acting like he's on the verge of slamming into the wall left and right instead of, y'know, playing a ball off the wall like everyone else does. It's just indicative of the irrational hatred the guy gets; if he's not slamming into the wall or diving for balls every other game he's worthless and a coward.

 

I certainly don't hate Soriano, but he is what he is. He's not a great defensive player except for his arm. Other posters have agreed that he has a problem with balls near the wall and a tendency to not always hustle after balls hit in the gap. I guess none of this is too surprising since he's basically a DH that's been forced to play the field.

[SouthSideRyan]

I guess none of this is too surprising since he's basically a DH that's been forced to play the field.

 

Only if there are a lot of DHs that have been forced to play the field.

[Derwood]

I don't remember the last time ANY outfielder made much contact with that brick wall

[ConstableRabbit]

I don't remember the last time ANY outfielder made much contact with that brick wall

I remember it happening to Eli Marrero in a game in 03 or 04 and thought he died.

 

Bastard made the catch though...

[SouthSideRyan]

Sam Fuld and Ben Grieve.

[Brett]

Sam Fuld and Ben Grieve.

 

Grieve had a hell of a Cubs career.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Sam Fuld

There's just something not right about that kid.

[SouthSideRyan]

This is pretty much the point btw. We've come up with a total of 3 guys who've gone into the bricks to catch a ball, only 1 of them could be described as better than adequate OFers, and 1 of them for whom terrible would be kind. (Plus he came away with a busted face for the effort)

[Little Slide Rooter]

This is pretty much the point btw. We've come up with a total of 3 guys who've gone into the bricks to catch a ball, only 1 of them could be described as better than adequate OFers, and 1 of them for whom terrible would be kind. (Plus he came away with a busted face for the effort)

 

This discussion takes me back to the FJM article from 1-2 years ago basically saying that "gritty" and "maximum effort" players are basically bad players doing what they can to make up for the fact that they're bad.

[tfarks]

Does anyone else remember this? I saw an interview back in the day and Chipper Jones was talking about how his busted lip made him look tough. I thought it was from him running into the wall playing LF, but I can't remember.

[Old Style]

This is pretty much the point btw. We've come up with a total of 3 guys who've gone into the bricks to catch a ball, only 1 of them could be described as better than adequate OFers, and 1 of them for whom terrible would be kind. (Plus he came away with a busted face for the effort)

 

This discussion takes me back to the FJM article from 1-2 years ago basically saying that "gritty" and "maximum effort" players are basically bad players doing what they can to make up for the fact that they're white.