Pujols signs with Angels pg 151

[davearm2]

Really? Howard is pretty notorious for how relatively drastic his splits are. He's now arguably a platoon player with how much worse he is against LH pitchers.

Howard's splits were drastic in 2011. Prior to that, his career ops vs. lefties wasn't that different from Fielder's: .768 vs .799

 

By the time Fielder gets to be Howard's age, we might be calling him a platoon guy too. Who knows.

[Sammy Sofa]

Really? Howard is pretty notorious for how relatively drastic his splits are. He's now arguably a platoon player with how much worse he is against LH pitchers.

Howard's splits were drastic in 2011. Prior to that, his career ops vs. lefties wasn't that different from Fielder's: .768 vs .799

 

By the time Fielder gets to be Howard's age, we might be calling him a platoon guy too. Who knows.

 

Not just in 2011. He's been noticeably slipping against lefties since 2008. His career numbers against them are propped up from his 2008 and before numbers. Sure, maybe Prince will have the same issues, but this was a known issue with Howard going back to when he was in the minors (his first two years in the majors he faced significantly fewer LH pitchers because of it). Fielder's numbers against lefties are primarily dragged down by how bad he was against them in 2010.

[17 Seconds]

Career K%

 

Howard- 27.4

Fielder- 18.5

 

this argument is laughable

[Tryptamine]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

 

And Joey Votto will still be older than Prince Fielder 2 years from now.

[davearm2]

Career K%

 

Howard- 27.4

Fielder- 18.5

 

this argument is laughable

Strikeouts don't matter didn't you get the memo

[davearm2]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How's that Teix contract working out?

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How's that Teix contract working out?

 

good no? Or am I missing something?

[SouthSideRyan]

How's that Teix contract working out?

 

good no? Or am I missing something?

 

Already in the type of big contract decline dave gets hard over.

[CubColtPacer]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How's that Teix contract working out?

 

good no? Or am I missing something?

 

I'm sure the Yankees were wanting a lot more out of his early years than a guy with a .846 and an .835 OPS the last two years at first base. They are the Yankees so they can afford it, but that's not a lot of offensive production for a guy making 22.5 million.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm sure the Yankees were wanting a lot more out of his early years than a guy with a .846 and an .835 OPS the last two years at first base. They are the Yankees so they can afford it, but that's not a lot of offensive production for a guy making 22.5 million.

 

I thought he was "worth" like $19-20m a year based on his WAR with the Yankees.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm sure the Yankees were wanting a lot more out of his early years than a guy with a .846 and an .835 OPS the last two years at first base. They are the Yankees so they can afford it, but that's not a lot of offensive production for a guy making 22.5 million.

 

I thought he was "worth" like $19-20m a year based on his WAR with the Yankees.

 

Maybe thanks to UZR, his offense took a huge drop-off after the first season, and then declined further. Using the davearm decline theory, he should be replacement level by next season.

[dew1679666265]

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How is Teix's bat elite and Prince's is not?

Teix career wOBA: .384

Prince career wOBA: .391

Prior to their respective age 28 seasons, Teix had 3 seasons of .400+ wOBA (.405, .406, .410) and Prince has had 3 (.417, .420, .408).

Career OPS: Teix - .904; Prince - .929

 

Teix was more valuable prior to his huge contract than Prince (4.5 average WAR to 3.3) but it's because of defense rather than offense. Prince is the better offensive player.

 

And Adrian Gonzalez was never a free agent, if I'm right in that he's who you were referring to. He was traded to the Red Sox before he hit the market. But if you want to include him anyway, prior to heading to the Sox, here's their respective numbers:

 

Gonzalez average WAR: 3.0

Gonzalez wOBAs over .400: 1; career wOBA: .375

 

Prince average WAR: 3.3 WAR

Prince wOBAs over .400: 3; career wOBA: .391

My guess would be that Petco held down Gonzalez' numbers, but Prince was statistically the better player through each player's age 28 season.

 

Is it just that Prince is fat and Teix/Gonzalez are not that make you comfortable with them?

[CubColtPacer]

I'm sure the Yankees were wanting a lot more out of his early years than a guy with a .846 and an .835 OPS the last two years at first base. They are the Yankees so they can afford it, but that's not a lot of offensive production for a guy making 22.5 million.

 

I thought he was "worth" like $19-20m a year based on his WAR with the Yankees.

 

Even if he was (which is hard to quantify since first base defense is hard to judge) when a guy is signed through his age 36 season he should be doing better than just barely not be worth his contract during his prime years. By fangraphs WAR, Texeira has been averaging about 18.5 million worth of value for the contract and is getting paid 22.5 million per year. Those would be fine numbers for a total contact, but when those were supposed to be his 3 best years out of 8? Not so good.

[davearm2]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How's that Teix contract working out?

You realize this does not support the argument for signing Fielder, right?

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm still waiting to find out who this elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape player is. The only person I can think of is Votto, but then you have to empty your farm and still give him a massive contract. There is no perfect candidate; any player is going to have a flaw of some sort. You can't let your fear of past failed contracts keep you from making moves in the future. With Pujols/Fielder, they will likely outperform their contracts in the first couple years. That being the case, I'm not too upset if they fall below value in the last couple.

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How's that Teix contract working out?

You realize this does not support the argument for signing Fielder, right?

 

Sure it does. Your ideal, perfect world scenario is going to be a terrible contract under your narrow-minded definition. In retrospect you wouldn't sign him and would sign Jay Gibbons to play 1B, and your team would be terrible.

[davearm2]

As I've said repeatedly, I'm willing to stick my neck out on a massive contract.

 

Just not for either of these two guys, on anything longer than 6 years.

 

I mentioned Teix and Gonzalez as two guys I would have been happy to sign at the years and dollars they received. Elite offensive, elite defensive, young and in shape players are out there -- just not this offseason.

 

How is Teix's bat elite and Prince's is not?

Teix career wOBA: .384

Prince career wOBA: .391

Prior to their respective age 28 seasons, Teix had 3 seasons of .400+ wOBA (.405, .406, .410) and Prince has had 3 (.417, .420, .408).

Career OPS: Teix - .904; Prince - .929

 

Teix was more valuable prior to his huge contract than Prince (4.5 average WAR to 3.3) but it's because of defense rather than offense. Prince is the better offensive player.

 

And Adrian Gonzalez was never a free agent, if I'm right in that he's who you were referring to. He was traded to the Red Sox before he hit the market. But if you want to include him anyway, prior to heading to the Sox, here's their respective numbers:

 

Gonzalez average WAR: 3.0

Gonzalez wOBAs over .400: 1; career wOBA: .375

 

Prince average WAR: 3.3 WAR

Prince wOBAs over .400: 3; career wOBA: .391

My guess would be that Petco held down Gonzalez' numbers, but Prince was statistically the better player through each player's age 28 season.

 

Is it just that Prince is fat and Teix/Gonzalez are not that make you comfortable with them?

Teix and Gonzalez have well-rounded games, including excellent defense and average or better baserunning, as well as better body types.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Teix and Gonzalez have well-rounded games, including excellent defense and average or better baserunning, as well as better body types.

Isn't that accounted for in the WAR?

[17 Seconds]

Career K%

 

Howard- 27.4

Fielder- 18.5

 

this argument is laughable

Strikeouts don't matter didn't you get the memo

 

that's an incredibly obnoxious comment, and you know it.

 

the "strikeouts don't matter that much" argument is made in refernece to how the strikeouts actually affect the game.

 

when determining how a player is likely to perform in future situations, strikeouts are very important.

[Guest]

Teix and Gonzalez have well-rounded games, including excellent defense and average or better baserunning, as well as better body types.

Isn't that accounted for in the WAR?

 

 

Except the body type part, pretty much, yes.

[davearm2]

Teix and Gonzalez have well-rounded games, including excellent defense and average or better baserunning, as well as better body types.

Isn't that accounted for in the WAR?

In the historical WARs, yes.

 

IMO the better balance means the future WARs should trend better.

[mookie]

Tex looks like a horse and Prince a rasta hacky sack master. Advantage Prince.

[davearm2]

Career K%

 

Howard- 27.4

Fielder- 18.5

 

this argument is laughable

Strikeouts don't matter didn't you get the memo

 

that's an incredibly obnoxious comment, and you know it.

 

the "strikeouts don't matter that much" argument is made in refernece to how the strikeouts actually affect the game.

 

when determining how a player is likely to perform in future situations, strikeouts are very important.

I thought a guy with a .900 OPS and 150 Ks is equally as valuable as a guy with a .900 OPS and 50 Ks. Do I have that wrong?

Edited November 10, 2011 by davearm2

[jersey cubs fan]

http://www.wokay.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Mark-Teixeira-300x248.jpg

 

There's no way this fat faced dude has a well maintained body.

 

http://cbsnewyork.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/mark-teixeira.jpg?w=300

Edited November 10, 2011 by jersey cubs fan