Arizona Fall League

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Partial AFL rosters are out. The Cubs will send OF Brett Jackson, 3B Josh Vitters and RHP Chris Archer.

[Wrigley Rat]

Partial AFL rosters are out. The Cubs will send OF Brett Jackson, 3B Josh Vitters and RHP Chris Archer.

All excellent choices! (I always forget the required breakdown), but I would like to see the others come from this list: Trey McNutt, Hak-Ju Lee, Matt Spencer, Rebel Ridling, Ryan Flaherty, Junior Lake, Michael Brenly, Chris Rusin, Rafael Dolis, Jeff Beliveau, Aaron Shafer, Brandon Guyer, and Russ Canzler.

[Rob]

I know it's generally frowned upon to send big leaguers down there, but I'll be real interested to see if they let cashner head down there to get some extra innings under his belt. If not, we can be pretty certain he wont be getting a real starter's workload next year, and his fate is probably sealed.

[CubsWin]

I know it's generally frowned upon to send big leaguers down there, but I'll be real interested to see if they let cashner head down there to get some extra innings under his belt. If not, we can be pretty certain he wont be getting a real starter's workload next year, and his fate is probably sealed.

Why couldn't he be stretched out in spring training?

[SouthSideRyan]

I know it's generally frowned upon to send big leaguers down there, but I'll be real interested to see if they let cashner head down there to get some extra innings under his belt. If not, we can be pretty certain he wont be getting a real starter's workload next year, and his fate is probably sealed.

Why couldn't he be stretched out in spring training?

 

He could be stretched out to pitch a starter's share of innings in an individual game, but he can't magically jump 100 innings without seriously risking arm troubles.

[Guest]

I would love to see Cashner at the AFL but if not, he would likely go to Mexico or the Dominican and hopefully start. Ditto Samardzija (like he pitched in Mexico last winter).

[davearm2]

I know it's generally frowned upon to send big leaguers down there, but I'll be real interested to see if they let cashner head down there to get some extra innings under his belt. If not, we can be pretty certain he wont be getting a real starter's workload next year, and his fate is probably sealed.

Why couldn't he be stretched out in spring training?

 

He could be stretched out to pitch a starter's share of innings in an individual game, but he can't magically jump 100 innings without seriously risking arm troubles.

That would be true regardless of the AFL though, right?

 

I guess what I'm thinking is, no matter what happens this fall, Cashner's innings will need to be limited in 2011. But there's no reason he can't build the arm strength needed to start during ST.

 

Heck when February rolls around, his arm strength should be no different than Dempster, Wells, Z, etc. They'll all be starting fresh, essentially.

[Guest]

If Cashner throws in the AFL, that's X number of innings more that his arm is conditioned to throw in a season. Right now he's barely going to reach last year's IP total, throwing in the AFL at least allows him to get some build so he doesn't need to be shut down or moved to the pen in July next year. He still won't be able to make 30 starts, but he'll be closer and maybe able to do so in 2012 without a ton of risk.

[CubColtPacer]

If Cashner throws in the AFL, that's X number of innings more that his arm is conditioned to throw in a season. Right now he's barely going to reach last year's IP total, throwing in the AFL at least allows him to get some build so he doesn't need to be shut down or moved to the pen in July next year. He still won't be able to make 30 starts, but he'll be closer and maybe able to do so in 2012 without a ton of risk.

 

He probably won't actually reach last year's total with last year's AFL included (I believe he had 119 innings and change total last year). This year he's only on pace for about 110. If the Cubs could push that number to about 140-145, then they could get a nice solid season of 160-180 innings next year from him. Right now he probably would be limited to 150 next year at most.

[Guest]

The Cubs really screwed the pooch with Cashner.

[lumafia]

The Cubs really screwed the pooch with Cashner.

 

Only the Cubs.

[davearm2]

The Cubs really screwed the pooch with Cashner.

Let's see what they end up doing with him next year first. Breaking SPs into MLB as relievers has been done effectively many times before.

 

If they make him a starter after this year, but have to limit his innings in 2011 because they got him some MLB experience in 2010 rather than keeping him starting in AAA, that won't be terrible.

[muntjack]

Considering our top pitching prospect will finally become a full time starter at age 25, it looks pretty terrible. Edited August 18, 2010 by muntjack

[Guest]

The Cubs really screwed the pooch with Cashner.

Let's see what they end up doing with him next year first. Breaking SPs into MLB as relievers has been done effectively many times before.

 

If they make him a starter after this year, but have to limit his innings in 2011 because they got him some MLB experience in 2010 rather than keeping him starting in AAA, that won't be terrible.

 

But now the Cubs are limiting the number of innings he can throw next year or pushing him beyond his limits and risking injury. Or locking him into a set up role.

 

And big league experience? He probably would have gotten quite a bit if he was called up instead of Coleman and Diamond when Lilly was traded and Silva got hurt.

[CubColtPacer]

The Cubs really screwed the pooch with Cashner.

Let's see what they end up doing with him next year first. Breaking SPs into MLB as relievers has been done effectively many times before.

 

If they make him a starter after this year, but have to limit his innings in 2011 because they got him some MLB experience in 2010 rather than keeping him starting in AAA, that won't be terrible.

 

Right now though they have to severely limit his innings in 2011 and then limit his innings again in 2012. He'll be close to arbitration by the time the Cubs can use him for a full year.

 

I have no problems breaking a guy in as a reliever, but they should have at least one 140-150 inning season under their belt first. It's a long way to progress in the majors as a starter if they've never made it to 120 before.

[davearm2]

The Cubs really screwed the pooch with Cashner.

Let's see what they end up doing with him next year first. Breaking SPs into MLB as relievers has been done effectively many times before.

 

If they make him a starter after this year, but have to limit his innings in 2011 because they got him some MLB experience in 2010 rather than keeping him starting in AAA, that won't be terrible.

 

But now the Cubs are limiting the number of innings he can throw next year or pushing him beyond his limits and risking injury. Or locking him into a set up role.

 

And big league experience? He probably would have gotten quite a bit if he was called up instead of Coleman and Diamond when Lilly was traded and Silva got hurt.

Hey I can see that side of it too.

 

I just don't think doing what the Cubs did is the travesty it's being made out to be. The guy lost some IP, gained some experience, and helped the bigleague club (albeit in a lost year, but it wasn't lost back when the move was made).

[SouthSideRyan]

Here's the connundrum. IMO, in order for Cashner to be a starter next year, 2 things have to happen:

 

-Cashner has to continue to flame out in the pen the rest of the season

 

-The Cubs have to waste a lot of money on the bullpen in the offseason.

 

And both of these things would really suck.

[davearm2]

Here's the connundrum. IMO, in order for Cashner to be a starter next year, 2 things have to happen:

 

-Cashner has to continue to flame out in the pen the rest of the season

 

-The Cubs have to waste a lot of money on the bullpen in the offseason.

 

And both of these things would really suck.

Or, perhaps the Cubs planned all along that the bullpen gig would be temporary.

[SouthSideRyan]

Here's the connundrum. IMO, in order for Cashner to be a starter next year, 2 things have to happen:

 

-Cashner has to continue to flame out in the pen the rest of the season

 

-The Cubs have to waste a lot of money on the bullpen in the offseason.

 

And both of these things would really suck.

Or, perhaps the Cubs planned all along that the bullpen gig would be temporary.

 

What would make you think that?

[davell]

I want Cashner in the rotation. That said, I'll play devil's advocate for a minute. He really needs to improve his slider, locate his fastball better, and throw his changeup more. Maybe the Cubs feel he's better suited to the pen because of these things? Maybe they think Jay Jackson is better suited to be in the rotation than Cashner?(At best, I can't see more than one spot being truly up for grabs next year). Plus, with Archer and/or McNutt conceivably not being TOO far away, they just feel that Cashner is best suited at the back of the pen?

 

 

As I said earlier though, I think the Cubs have messed this up too and just figure that starters are more valuable than relievers. I do have to wonder if the switch has hurt him already due to how he's struggled over the last month and a half or so.

[Guest]

I'd be surprised if the Cubs think Jackson is a better starter than Cashner. Just compare the two at AAA and see which one fell apart in the 5th and 6th and which one dominated throughout his outing.

[davearm2]

Here's the connundrum. IMO, in order for Cashner to be a starter next year, 2 things have to happen:

 

-Cashner has to continue to flame out in the pen the rest of the season

 

-The Cubs have to waste a lot of money on the bullpen in the offseason.

 

And both of these things would really suck.

Or, perhaps the Cubs planned all along that the bullpen gig would be temporary.

 

What would make you think that?

They talked about him as though he was a starter when they drafted him, and they've groomed him in the minors to be a starter.

 

Seems perfectly reasonable that the longterm plan is still to use him as a starter.

[KingCubsFan]

Here's the connundrum. IMO, in order for Cashner to be a starter next year, 2 things have to happen:

 

-Cashner has to continue to flame out in the pen the rest of the season

 

-The Cubs have to waste a lot of money on the bullpen in the offseason.

 

And both of these things would really suck.

Or, perhaps the Cubs planned all along that the bullpen gig would be temporary.

 

What would make you think that?

They talked about him as though he was a starter when they drafted him, and they've groomed him in the minors to be a starter.

 

Seems perfectly reasonable that the longterm plan is still to use him as a starter.

Then why do they keep throwing him out as a reliever in a lost season when he clearly needs innings? One of two things will happen: a) he starts next year, and then risks blowing out his arm in 2012, or b) he is in the bullpen for the foreseeable future. Plans involving easing him into the rotation over a few years are simply unrealistic for this organization.

[NCCubFan]

Then why do they keep throwing him out as a reliever in a lost season when he clearly needs innings?

Because they're the Cubs, that's why.

[Guest]

I wouldn't mind them sending a guy like Justin Bristow or Esmailin Caridad who have missed most of the season with injury. I don't think Bristow is advanced enough for the Cubs to send him to the AFL though. Plus it appears he hasn't pitched in a few weeks so he might have had a setback.