Bulls Offseason Thread

[seanimal]

i just assume that lebron will eventually be "the man" in miami. i don't necessarily attribute this to wade going down to injury.

[hawkeyecub]

If LeBron, Wade, and Bosh had formed a team out in the middle of nowhere that none of them were connected to before, does that still make LeBron a villan? Or is it just the fact that he went to a city where Wade happened to be there already?

 

If they were in a 3rd party city, yes...it would be completely different. If he was 30, not 25 and wanted to win it would be completely different. If Wade and Bosh were not top 10 players in the league it would be different.

 

So basically LeBron is a villain for not being arrogant enough to not want all the credit by being the undisputed leader. It's not like him, Wade, and Bosh are going to change what they do on the basketball court just because they are in Miami rather than some other city. It's only who the public gives credit to that will change.

 

So LeBron's legacy is diminished, but do we really want individual players making decisions about what will be best for their legacy?

 

I don't think it's about making the decision solely for the sake of your legacy. When you're the most freakish, naturally physically talented player of all time, you should not think you have to go with a top 4 player in the league and an All-Star big man in order to win a title. It's weak. If you want to make that move, you automatically erase yourself from "greatest of all-time" discussion. You're gone immediately from that and have been since Thursday. You care more about being a [expletive] "global icon", please.

[KingCubsFan]

If LeBron, Wade, and Bosh had formed a team out in the middle of nowhere that none of them were connected to before, does that still make LeBron a villan? Or is it just the fact that he went to a city where Wade happened to be there already?

 

If they were in a 3rd party city, yes...it would be completely different. If he was 30, not 25 and wanted to win it would be completely different. If Wade and Bosh were not top 10 players in the league it would be different.

 

So basically LeBron is a villain for not being arrogant enough to not want all the credit by being the undisputed leader. It's not like him, Wade, and Bosh are going to change what they do on the basketball court just because they are in Miami rather than some other city. It's only who the public gives credit to that will change.

 

So LeBron's legacy is diminished, but do we really want individual players making decisions about what will be best for their legacy?

 

I don't think it's about making the decision solely for the sake of your legacy. When you're the most freakish, naturally physically talented player of all time, you should not think you have to go with a top 4 player in the league and an All-Star big man in order to win a title. It's weak. If you want to make that move, you automatically erase yourself from "greatest of all-time" discussion. You're gone immediately from that and have been since Thursday. You care more about being a [expletive] "global icon", please.

He probably thinks he'll be a global icon no matter where he goes. The decision to go to Miami was probably based on the fact that it was the easiest way to a championship and he gets to play with his friends.

[Guest]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

Yeah, the prime-time special was stupid, but his decision probably wasn't.

[C.C.]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

[C.C.]

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

Yeah, the prime-time special was stupid, but his decision probably wasn't.

 

If he wanted to ever be considered one of the greats it was. He's never going to be respected by his peers.

Edited July 14, 2010 by C.C.

[Banedon]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

Again TT, it depends on the goals here. Clearly Lebron's only goal here is championships, and if that's his only goal, then he made the right decision. I doubt many would debate that.

 

But if you're talking about legacy, and being percieved as the best player ever...he's put himself in a poor position for that.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

Yeah, the prime-time special was stupid, but his decision probably wasn't.

 

If he wanted to ever be considered one of the greats it was. He's never going to be respected by his peers.

Who gives a [expletive]? He's the best player in the game and everybody knows it, he's going to get paid, and this gives him a great chance to get some rings. He'll always be considered one of the greats.

[Guest]

But if you're talking about legacy, and being percieved as the best player ever...he's put himself in a poor position for that.

 

Why? Because he had to go to another team to get his Pippen/Shaq?

[C.C.]

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

Yeah, the prime-time special was stupid, but his decision probably wasn't.

 

If he wanted to ever be considered one of the greats it was. He's never going to be respected by his peers.

Who gives a [expletive]? He's the best player in the game and everybody knows it, he's going to get paid, and this gives him a great chance to get some rings. He'll always be considered one of the greats.

 

No he won't. Kobe will, Lebron won't.

[Guest]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

[C.C.]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

 

Right. It's tarnished because Lebron had to pair up with another great in their prime to get a ring. What greats do that? Kobe forced Shaq out because he wanted to be in charge of his own team. Create his own legacy. Sorry, if you don't understand that but people and players respect that.

[SouthSideRyan]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

 

Right. It's tarnished because Lebron had to pair up with another great in their prime to get a ring. What greats do that? Kobe forced Shaq out because he wanted to be in charge of his own team. Create his own legacy. Sorry, if you don't understand that but people and players respect that.

 

Maybe Jordan should've forced Pippen out. Some legacy MJ, not too surprising that Jordan fell on his face in Washington without Pippen at his side.

[C.C.]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

 

Right. It's tarnished because Lebron had to pair up with another great in their prime to get a ring. What greats do that? Kobe forced Shaq out because he wanted to be in charge of his own team. Create his own legacy. Sorry, if you don't understand that but people and players respect that.

 

Maybe Jordan should've forced Pippen out. Some legacy MJ, not too surprising that Jordan fell on his face in Washington without Pippen at his side.

 

:banghead:

[UMFan83]

Who is Jordon?

[seanimal]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

 

Right. It's tarnished because Lebron had to pair up with another great in their prime to get a ring. What greats do that? Kobe forced Shaq out because he wanted to be in charge of his own team. Create his own legacy. Sorry, if you don't understand that but people and players respect that.

 

Maybe Jordan should've forced Pippen out. Some legacy MJ, not too surprising that Jordan fell on his face in Washington without Pippen at his side.

 

wait, i get the schtick, but are you seriously suggesting that jordan wasn't the same player in washington because pippen wasn't there?

 

obviously, the miami situation really isn't much different than the jordan-pippen-rodman bulls on a hypothetical level. results-wise, we'll just have to see.

[Guest]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

 

Right. It's tarnished because Lebron had to pair up with another great in their prime to get a ring. What greats do that? Kobe forced Shaq out because he wanted to be in charge of his own team. Create his own legacy. Sorry, if you don't understand that but people and players respect that.

 

And then he didn't win another one until he got another elite big man like Gasol and Odom to help with the scoring load. Odom isn't a bad proxy for Bosh come to think of it.

[CubColtPacer]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else. Just because Wade is the incumbent doesn't mean that he's a bigger star, or that he's "the guy", or whatever. Just because Wade is better than Derrick Rose doesn't mean there's a different dynamic here.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

So If Jordon in his prime went to play with Isiah, Magic, or Bird you wouldn't have a problem with it? Great players have their own team and identity. It's like Bird joining Magic in their prime.

 

I can't say I would care at all. LeBron's legacy isn't tarnished by Cleveland's inability to put a second star on the team with him.

 

Right. It's tarnished because Lebron had to pair up with another great in their prime to get a ring. What greats do that? Kobe forced Shaq out because he wanted to be in charge of his own team. Create his own legacy. Sorry, if you don't understand that but people and players respect that.

 

So forcing another player out and hurting your chances at a title to feed your own ego is worthy of respect.

Demanding a trade because your team hasn't acquired enough talent is worthy of respect.

But signing with a team and taking less money to have the best chance at championships makes you lose respect?

 

The NBA is a messed up league if that is all true. Everything has been turned upside down.

[Magnetic Curses]

lebron has put himself in a great situation to win, he partnered with someone who has what he doesn't. now, how his success is perceived historically, only time will tell.

 

i don't think it will make that much of a difference.

[rawaction]

The point here is that LeBron isn't going to be the second banana or taking the back seat or whatever term you want to use. He's the best player in basketball, he controls the game by having the ball in his hands and scoring and distributing better than anyone else.

 

Yes, and now he will conceivably have the ball in his hands, score, and be able to distribute LESS than he was before. If he was the best because of that....isn't it conceivable that his reputation of being the best will take a hit because he is doing less of what made him the best in the game?

 

Look at Kobe for an example. LeBron has risen above Kobe as the best in the game. Why? Lebron's numbers aren't so remarkably better. And it obviously ain't team success. Because Kobe's numbers are down across the board the last 2 years because he doesn't have to have the ball, distribute, or score for the Lakers to be the best team in the league anymore because he has help.

 

And I really can't believe there are a host of people getting upset with him about playing with the best possible team. I mean, someone honestly said yes to "he should go to a good team, but not too good of a team". That's lunacy, I mean, I don't even know how to respond to that type of irrationality.

 

It may sound irrational, but it's the truth. It's why people didn't dance in the street when Lebron and co. won the gold medal in 2008. It's why Canada would have been a disaster area had they not won Olympic hockey gold this past winter. It's pretty clear that more respect is given to a player/team that wins on a relatively level playing field.

 

Jordan's Bulls created a playing field that was serverely tilted in their favor, but most attribute that to MJ's greatness and competitiveness getting the other 11 players on the Bulls to play to his level. Lebron tipped the scales before games have even been played. There's a clear difference. LeBron going to the Heat shows that he is either unwilling or unable to continue to try and win on a level or self-tilted playing field.

[Guest]

The only difference comes from arbitrary preconceptions in people's minds. I guess you can criticize LeBron's decision based on that, but it doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

[Soul]

Well, the Cleveland fans I've spoken to tell me they knew or very strongly suspected Lebron would leave long before he did. What I'm getting from my very small sample size is that it was all about how he did it, not that he did it.

 

I certainly can't blame him for going to Miami. It sounds like a great basketball situation for him.

 

The "Decision" show -- the big bash in Miami? Eh, I didn't really care but I can understand someone criticizing him for that.

[SouthSideRyan]

Jordan's Bulls created a playing field that was serverely tilted in their favor, but most attribute that to MJ's greatness and competitiveness getting the other 11 players on the Bulls to play to his level.

 

Man, most people are really stupid.

[rawaction]

The only difference comes from arbitrary preconceptions in people's minds. I guess you can criticize LeBron's decision based on that, but it doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

 

Does it make it less ridiculous given that you are arguing the minority opinion?