Bulls Offseason Thread

[David]

He's not wrong, really. Rose and LeBron are not a very cohesive fit.

 

 

He's wrong in thinking that it matters very much that they wouldn't be an ideal fit... or would "never work."

 

i don't see why two guys who can penetrate and have great court vision would not be a great fit. rose drives, you collapse on him, and it's lebron with an oop. sign a shooter to go along with them and you can't guard the shooter at all, you just can't.

 

i don't see why it's so necessary to have a point guard who shoots the three when you can literally have a shooter at any other position. is it a rule that you can only have one guy to dribble-drive on the floor? i think it makes a ton of sense to have two guys who can get to the rim on the floor at the same time. rose has already developed a hell of a mid-range game, he'd be near unstoppable with lebron.

 

unless the insinuation is that paul pierce doesn't make rajon rondo better and that neither is good for the other, and that's paul pierce, not lebron james.

 

 

absolutely... another plus is that you can almost ensure that you have at least one ridiculously good penetrator (lol) on the floor at any given moment of a game

[Guest]

He's not wrong, really. Rose and LeBron are not a very cohesive fit.

 

 

He's wrong in thinking that it matters very much that they wouldn't be an ideal fit... or would "never work."

 

i don't see why two guys who can penetrate and have great court vision would not be a great fit. rose drives, you collapse on him, and it's lebron with an oop. sign a shooter to go along with them and you can't guard the shooter at all, you just can't.

 

i don't see why it's so necessary to have a point guard who shoots the three when you can literally have a shooter at any other position. is it a rule that you can only have one guy to dribble-drive on the floor? i think it makes a ton of sense to have two guys who can get to the rim on the floor at the same time. rose has already developed a hell of a mid-range game, he'd be near unstoppable with lebron.

 

unless the insinuation is that paul pierce doesn't make rajon rondo better and that neither is good for the other, and that's paul pierce, not lebron james.

 

Of course LeBron would make Rose better, just like Pierce makes Rondo better. The former opens up lanes for the latter to drive. The question is does Rose limit what LeBron can do because you don't have to close out on Rose at the arc.

[UMFan83]

- He would tell the Bulls to sign Cal today, because even if he didn't get LeBron, he's an asset and would get players to come here.

 

This is an interesting point that I think makes a lot of sense. Be kinda like the Pete Carroll situation in Seattle. A lot of former Calipari coached players around the league. And he has recruited a lot more. If no Lebron, worse case scenario, he does a sale job to other FAs and Derrick Rose gets to play for him again.

 

-Marcus Camby

-Derrick Rose

-Chris Douglass-Roberts

-Joey Dorsey

-Tyreke Evans

-Antonio Anderson

-Earl Barron

-Rodney Carney

-Shawne Williams

-DeJuan Wagner

-John Wall

-DeMarcus Cousins

-Patrick Patterson

-Daniel Orton

-Eric Bledsoe

 

Those are all the players currently in the NBA that played under him at UMass, Memphis, and Kentucky (kentucky players assumed to play in NBA next season). There are no more active NBA players that played under Cal in New Jersey. Of course that doesn't include players that were recruited by Cal over the years that have an association with him but didn't goto his school, players recruited to Memphis that stayed at Memphis when he left, players still on Kentucky's roster that might make the NBA (not really any though).

[Formerly Snayke]

I wasn't being serious about LBJ-Rose. TT had originally mentioned that an offense without a point guard is better for LBJ. I think the two would be fine, but there is a case to be made for it.

[UMFan83]

Also, I hate seeing people saying that Rose is not a great shooter. I'm not saying he's dominant and he obviously has issues shooting 3 pointers (although he improved during the season), but statistically he was one of the top 3 mid range shooters in terms of accuracy last season. (I saw this on RealGM but don't have the source...probably 82games). Of course the mid range jumper is the least efficient shot in basketball, but when over half his shots come in this range and he shoots around 50% there, that's pretty decent. I'm not saying he's Ray Allen in his prime, but I'd say Rose is an above average shooter.

 

Now if you are referring to shooter as someone who can catch and shoot, which you very likely might be, then I'd open it up for discussion, because he hasn't shown to be great in that scenario. Most of his shots come off the dribble, creating space as a result of his dangerous speed to the bucket. So when people say the Bulls need a shooter, most likely you mean someone Rose can kick out to and bury a bucket. I agree 100%. But when people say shooting is a weakness in Rose's game, I have to partially disagree with that assertion. I've seen way too many people this season saying that Rose is overrated because he can only get points going to the bucket, completely ignoring the numerous games where he just destroyed an opponent with lethal midrange shooting.

[Magnetic Curses]

He's not wrong, really. Rose and LeBron are not a very cohesive fit.

 

 

He's wrong in thinking that it matters very much that they wouldn't be an ideal fit... or would "never work."

 

i don't see why two guys who can penetrate and have great court vision would not be a great fit. rose drives, you collapse on him, and it's lebron with an oop. sign a shooter to go along with them and you can't guard the shooter at all, you just can't.

 

i don't see why it's so necessary to have a point guard who shoots the three when you can literally have a shooter at any other position. is it a rule that you can only have one guy to dribble-drive on the floor? i think it makes a ton of sense to have two guys who can get to the rim on the floor at the same time. rose has already developed a hell of a mid-range game, he'd be near unstoppable with lebron.

 

unless the insinuation is that paul pierce doesn't make rajon rondo better and that neither is good for the other, and that's paul pierce, not lebron james.

 

Of course LeBron would make Rose better, just like Pierce makes Rondo better. The former opens up lanes for the latter to drive. The question is does Rose limit what LeBron can do because you don't have to close out on Rose at the arc.

 

if rose is the only other player on the team, sure. but who's going to watch rose going to the basket without the ball when lebron is driving with the ball? if the bulls get a shooter in the offseason, when he's on the floor, you have to watch lebron and rose going to the rim, and guard a shooter at the line.

 

shooters are easy to come by, guys that can get to the rim in the NBA with ease are hard to find.

[Guest]

Also, I hate seeing people saying that Rose is not a great shooter. I'm not saying he's dominant and he obviously has issues shooting 3 pointers (although he improved during the season), but statistically he was one of the top 3 mid range shooters in terms of accuracy last season. (I saw this on RealGM but don't have the source...probably 82games). Of course the mid range jumper is the least efficient shot in basketball, but when over half his shots come in this range and he shoots around 50% there, that's pretty decent. I'm not saying he's Ray Allen in his prime, but I'd say Rose is an above average shooter.

 

Now if you are referring to shooter as someone who can catch and shoot, which you very likely might be, then I'd open it up for discussion, because he hasn't shown to be great in that scenario. Most of his shots come off the dribble, creating space as a result of his dangerous speed to the bucket. So when people say the Bulls need a shooter, most likely you mean someone Rose can kick out to and bury a bucket. I agree 100%. But when people say shooting is a weakness in Rose's game, I have to partially disagree with that assertion. I've seen way too many people this season saying that Rose is overrated because he can only get points going to the bucket, completely ignoring the numerous games where he just destroyed an opponent with lethal midrange shooting.

 

The problem is that midrange shooting is not an attribute to build around, it's the least efficient shot in basketball. Even as a good midrange shooter, Rose shooting from 18 feet is not as good as LeBron/Rose shooting from 5 feet, or someone like Mo Williams shooting a 3. That's the crux of what I was getting at. On his current team, LeBron gets past his man and the PG help chooses between him shooting a shot at close range(65%), or Mo Williams shooting a 3 at 40+%. Either way it's a 1.2+ PPS. Now when you have the choice between LeBron at close range and a kick to Rose(ignoring that you can close better to midrange than you can to 3) who's a 50%(probably generous, he's 41% on jumpers including threes) midrange shooter, now it's an easy shot, 1 PPS from outside the paint is what you take.

 

Obviously, this is a simplification, there are other things at work. The other 3 players are very important, Rose's other strengths relative to Williams, etc. But the point is that LeBron + Rose isn't going to burn down the league like some might think by looking at them separately.

[Guest]

if rose is the only other player on the team, sure. but who's going to watch rose going to the basket without the ball when lebron is driving with the ball? if the bulls get a shooter in the offseason, when he's on the floor, you have to watch lebron and rose going to the rim, and guard a shooter at the line.

 

shooters are easy to come by, guys that can get to the rim in the NBA with ease are hard to find.

 

Like I mentioned, if you have Channing Frye roaming the perimeter at the 4 then that would work really well. But with 2 bigs + LeBron and Rose, you're carrying 8 bodies into the paint, and those lanes will get crowded in a hurry.

[Magnetic Curses]

if rose and lebron were just simply slashers you may have a point, but both have superior court-vision.

[Magnetic Curses]

hell, kyle korver on that team would be an all-star.

[Magnetic Curses]

if rose is the only other player on the team, sure. but who's going to watch rose going to the basket without the ball when lebron is driving with the ball? if the bulls get a shooter in the offseason, when he's on the floor, you have to watch lebron and rose going to the rim, and guard a shooter at the line.

 

shooters are easy to come by, guys that can get to the rim in the NBA with ease are hard to find.

 

Like I mentioned, if you have Channing Frye roaming the perimeter at the 4 then that would work really well. But with 2 bigs + LeBron and Rose, you're carrying 8 bodies into the paint, and those lanes will get crowded in a hurry.

 

that's what i'm saying, the bulls can have a shooter at any of the other positions and make it very effective.

 

i don't think that bulls management would neglect shooting in the off-season, but you never know with those guys.

[Cubswin11]

if rose and lebron were just simply slashers you may have a point, but both have superior court-vision.

That superior court vision won't pay off unless they have someone on the team who can consistently hit 3's, something the Bulls really don't have right now. Rose and James might have some of the best court vision in the league, but if the guys they are dishing off to can't hit a open 3 to save their life it won't matter how good their court vision is or isn't

Edited May 13, 2010 by Cubswin11

[Banedon]

The Scores, a gentlemen's club in Manhattan, is promising James "access to the ladies of Scores for the rest of his life" if he signs with the Knicks

[Magnetic Curses]

if rose and lebron were just simply slashers you may have a point, but both have superior court-vision.

That superior court vision won't pay off unless they have someone on the team who can consistently hit 3's, something the Bulls really don't have right now.

 

one of the other 3 guys needs to be able to knock down a mid-range shot (deng) and another needs to be able to hit the 3 (take your pick of shooters who would pay to play with lebron and rose).

[UMFan83]

Also, I hate seeing people saying that Rose is not a great shooter. I'm not saying he's dominant and he obviously has issues shooting 3 pointers (although he improved during the season), but statistically he was one of the top 3 mid range shooters in terms of accuracy last season. (I saw this on RealGM but don't have the source...probably 82games). Of course the mid range jumper is the least efficient shot in basketball, but when over half his shots come in this range and he shoots around 50% there, that's pretty decent. I'm not saying he's Ray Allen in his prime, but I'd say Rose is an above average shooter.

 

Now if you are referring to shooter as someone who can catch and shoot, which you very likely might be, then I'd open it up for discussion, because he hasn't shown to be great in that scenario. Most of his shots come off the dribble, creating space as a result of his dangerous speed to the bucket. So when people say the Bulls need a shooter, most likely you mean someone Rose can kick out to and bury a bucket. I agree 100%. But when people say shooting is a weakness in Rose's game, I have to partially disagree with that assertion. I've seen way too many people this season saying that Rose is overrated because he can only get points going to the bucket, completely ignoring the numerous games where he just destroyed an opponent with lethal midrange shooting.

 

The problem is that midrange shooting is not an attribute to build around, it's the least efficient shot in basketball. Even as a good midrange shooter, Rose shooting from 18 feet is not as good as LeBron/Rose shooting from 5 feet, or someone like Mo Williams shooting a 3. That's the crux of what I was getting at. On his current team, LeBron gets past his man and the PG help chooses between him shooting a shot at close range(65%), or Mo Williams shooting a 3 at 40+%. Either way it's a 1.2+ PPS. Now when you have the choice between LeBron at close range and a kick to Rose(ignoring that you can close better to midrange than you can to 3) who's a 50%(probably generous, he's 41% on jumpers including threes) midrange shooter, now it's an easy shot, 1 PPS from outside the paint is what you take.

 

Obviously, this is a simplification, there are other things at work. The other 3 players are very important, Rose's other strengths relative to Williams, etc. But the point is that LeBron + Rose isn't going to burn down the league like some might think by looking at them separately.

 

I know I admitted as much in terms of efficency. Rose doesn't get to the line or hit enough 3's to make his shooting efficient at this point. That said, his FT rate went up as the season went on, and he started hitting a few 3 pointers towards the end of the season, enough where him draining one was a semi-regular occurance. What I meant from saying he's a good shooter is that he's very good at hitting at midrange jumper relative to the rest of the league, so its not a stretch to see that translate into an at least average 3 point threat. And Rose is going to learn to draw more contact and get more respect from the refs as his career progresses. If I heard people say he's not an efficient shooter at this point then I'd have to agree. But the post that caused me to write my OP was the one that talked about neither Rose nor LeBron being good shooters and more to the bucket players. Maybe whoever wrote that post (might have been yours) meant efficient with the word good, but I just saw people say that one too many times over the last couple of years and had to comment on it.

 

FYI, last season Rose had 1.18PPS, but that includes October and November where he shot around 45%, whereas he shot around 50.5% the rest of the season and took more 3's and FTs. He was averaging around 4-4.5 FTA per game back in October and November, and closer to 5.5 FTA per game the later part of the season. Still nowhere near good enough but a promising improvement. Back to PPS, I read somewhere that 1.5 PPS is a number for an elite player reach for, is that right? LeBron averaged 1.48 PPG this season. Also, I'm aware PPS is not a great stat to use, but like WHIP its a basic relatable stat that's easy to calculate.

Edited May 13, 2010 by UMFan83

[Cubswin11]

if rose and lebron were just simply slashers you may have a point, but both have superior court-vision.

That superior court vision won't pay off unless they have someone on the team who can consistently hit 3's, something the Bulls really don't have right now.

 

one of the other 3 guys needs to be able to knock down a mid-range shot (deng) and another needs to be able to hit the 3 (take your pick of shooters who would pay to play with lebron and rose).

I agree guys who only real asset to a team is their ability to hit 3's would kill to play on a team with those two. I am just saying the Bulls better make it a top priority to bring in someone, sign or trade, who is a really good 3-point shooter if Lebron signs with the team.

[David]

The Scores, a gentlemen's club in Manhattan, is promising James "access to the ladies of Scores for the rest of his life" if he signs with the Knicks

 

two days ago called.... :-)

[jersey cubs fan]

The Scores, a gentlemen's club in Manhattan, is promising James "access to the ladies of Scores for the rest of his life" if he signs with the Knicks

 

two days ago called.... :-)

 

Who called it The Scores?

 

It's just Scores.

[UMFan83]

I wonder if Utah would have any use for any of Hinrich, Deng or Taj. Do you think it would be worth it to try to do a sign and trade like Hinrich and Taj Gibson + 2011 1st for sign and trade Boozer and Okur if all of the bigger names went elsewhere.

 

Rose

Shooter with MLE or remaining cap space.

Deng

Boozer/Okur

Noah/Okur

 

Actually now that I give this even a half second of thought I don't think Utah would do this, even if Boozer said he's not resigning and only wants to sign with the Bulls. But Hinrich and Okur's contracts even out mostly, Taj takes a little chunk off signing Boozer, so you have I don't know 5-6 million in capspace plus the MLE to get a shooting guard. All I know is that a lot of people commented on how well the Jazz were playing without Okur on the floor the last month of the season + playoffs, so he might be expendable and is sort of like a better version of Brad Miller.

 

Edit: I don't make basketball trade proposals that often so take it easy on me :)

Edited May 13, 2010 by UMFan83

[David]

Hah, didn't notice that.

[hawkeyecub]

- He would tell the Bulls to sign Cal today, because even if he didn't get LeBron, he's an asset and would get players to come here.

 

This is an interesting point that I think makes a lot of sense. Be kinda like the Pete Carroll situation in Seattle. A lot of former Calipari coached players around the league. And he has recruited a lot more. If no Lebron, worse case scenario, he does a sale job to other FAs and Derrick Rose gets to play for him again.

 

I think it's a horrible idea. It's the NBA, you aren't recruiting. The majority of free agents go where there's a fit with money.

[Banedon]

The Scores, a gentlemen's club in Manhattan, is promising James "access to the ladies of Scores for the rest of his life" if he signs with the Knicks

 

two days ago called.... :-)

 

Ahhh...oops. Gotta admit...I don't keep on this thread all that well...:P

[SouthSideRyan]

I can't see Utah trading Okur, unless they're getting a big man in return/via FA. They're already undermanned down low (Kousta Koufos got actual playing time in the playoffs), and losing Boozer and Okur would really screw them over. Edited May 13, 2010 by SouthSideRyan

[rawaction]

- He would tell the Bulls to sign Cal today, because even if he didn't get LeBron, he's an asset and would get players to come here.

 

This is an interesting point that I think makes a lot of sense. Be kinda like the Pete Carroll situation in Seattle. A lot of former Calipari coached players around the league. And he has recruited a lot more. If no Lebron, worse case scenario, he does a sale job to other FAs and Derrick Rose gets to play for him again.

 

I think it's a horrible idea. It's the NBA, you aren't recruiting. The majority of free agents go where there's a fit with money.

 

Yes, but it's not unprecedented to see players go to teams that have a chance to win. This is also the biggest free agency season in the NBAs history. And with so many teams with money, best believe it's going to be a huge recruiting job by coaches and GMs.

[jersey cubs fan]

I can't see Okur trading Okur,

 

I can't see that either, but I don't know much about basketball.