Z to the pen

[Four and Twenty]

I have laughed numerous times while reading this thread.

 

Thank you OleMissCub, WrigleyField 22, Elwood, chuckywang, et al, for making a rather dismal situation actually funny rather than sad-funny.

[imb]

someone had to go down when lilly came back. dempster quite obviously wasn't. gorz probably wasn't because he's a lefty. your choices are then wells, zambrano, or silva. of those three, which has been less than spectacular this season so far? i say zambrano.

 

 

So you wish to base the decision on 4 starts rather than 7 years of data suggesting he's the worst option to be moved to the pen. I know you went on to talk about how the move is temporary, but honestly any decision to move your most talented starter to the pen is a bad discussion.

 

But allowing Harris anywhere NEAR the lineup, regardless of spot, imo is a far worse move. In fact, I can count at least 10 moves the Cubs have made (and this is sad that I can do it) that are worse then Z going to the pen.

 

do it

 

10 moves

[illiniguy]

someone had to go down when lilly came back. dempster quite obviously wasn't. gorz probably wasn't because he's a lefty. your choices are then wells, zambrano, or silva. of those three, which has been less than spectacular this season so far? i say zambrano.

 

 

So you wish to base the decision on 4 starts rather than 7 years of data suggesting he's the worst option to be moved to the pen. I know you went on to talk about how the move is temporary, but honestly any decision to move your most talented starter to the pen is a bad discussion.

 

But allowing Harris anywhere NEAR the lineup, regardless of spot, imo is a far worse move. In fact, I can count at least 10 moves the Cubs have made (and this is sad that I can do it) that are worse then Z going to the pen.

 

do it

 

10 moves

The Goat better be on that list.

[Connor McConnor]

 

Luckily I stopped caring 2-3 years ago.

 

 

40,000.00 posts would seem to indicate otherwise.

[Banedon]

 

Luckily I stopped caring 2-3 years ago.

 

 

40,000.00 posts would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

Jon's posting frequency has dropped very, very significantly in the past couple of years. Those 40,000 posts weren't spaced evenly.

[soapy]

So, what happens when Zambrano comes into the 8th inning, walks 4 straight batters, loses his mechanics, overthrows all of his pitches, and throws a fit? Does that mean Ted Lilly's next to move into the bullpen?

 

im very afraid that what happens after that occurs is going to be even worse than this. how are they going to sell "he sucked in the bullpen, time to go back to the rotation" after this whole thing is (in the minds of many) predicated on zambrano's lack of success in the rotation?

 

exactly. and if z somehow dominates in a relief role, is lou going to send him back to the rotation, or think to himself "by golly i'm a genius, i should have moved z to the bullpen a lot sooner" and keep z in the bullpen all season?

 

so basically, i'm saying either scenario it appears z may be a reliever all year.

 

he would likely move back to the rotation once Silva or Gorzelanny bombs or if there's an injury. Otherwise, yeah...he's probably stuck there regardless of his performance in relief.

[biittner77]

I skipped the middle 8 pages of this thread, Even the clowns on MLB network think this is a crazy bad idea.

 

The only way that this move makes any sense at all is that they are going to piggy back Zambrano for the last 4 innings of Lilly's starts until he gets stretched out. It's crazy, and they could more effectively do the same thing with Gorzelanny but at least there's "some" shread of logic to that plan.

[erik316wttn]

I have to wonder what Mr. Ricketts thinks about this move. I know owners usually stay out of the day-to-day management of the on-field product, but I think an exception is warranted here.

[ReadytoPlayCF]

Lou Piniella has led the Cubs to 2 division titles in his 3 years here. That is the only stat I am concerned with as a fan. Especially concerning the bad contracts and strange personalities he has been given.

 

Baseball, and all of life, is played by humans. I love Strat-O-Matic and other sim games, but they are not realistic to the real world of humans. Piniella is very unconventional, but he seems to have a keen understanding of his group of humans.

 

A quick analogy: pure socialism is the best economic system ever devised...on paper. It allocates the resources the best and most efficient way possible. But it doesn't work with humans!!! Human greed is not satisfied in pure socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work either in the human world because it only satisfies human greed. It has to be a mix of the two systems to have a chance to work with humans. The debate will always be what kind of mix, but history has proven that the extremes of both systems have failed every time.

 

Sports work the same way. If you just go by the pure stats and statistical models, I truly believe you will fail. And if you only go by the eyeball test and gut feeling, then you will fail too. It has to be a mix. Piniella seems to side more with gut feelings and uncoventional means to motivate his players, but 2 titles in 3 years speaks for itself. I'm not ready to kick him out the door when his success has been the best in the last 100 years of Cubs history.

 

Moving Theriot to 8th in the lineup and moving Byrd to leadoff doesn't make sense in a logical statistical world, but it may make sense in a human world. Theriot was put back to the top of the lineup yesterday and snapped out of his slump. Not all of Lou's moves will, or have worked, but I'm betting on the side of the only stat that really matters...winning 2 out of the last 3 division titles.

[hardcorecubfan]

Lou Piniella has led the Cubs to 2 division titles in his 3 years here. That is the only stat I am concerned with as a fan. Especially concerning the bad contracts and strange personalities he has been given.

 

Baseball, and all of life, is played by humans. I love Strat-O-Matic and other sim games, but they are not realistic to the real world of humans. Piniella is very unconventional, but he seems to have a keen understanding of his group of humans.

 

A quick analogy: pure socialism is the best economic system ever devised...on paper. It allocates the resources the best and most efficient way possible. But it doesn't work with humans!!! Human greed is not satisfied in pure socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work either in the human world because it only satisfies human greed. It has to be a mix of the two systems to have a chance to work with humans. The debate will always be what kind of mix, but history has proven that the extremes of both systems have failed every time.

 

Sports work the same way. If you just go by the pure stats and statistical models, I truly believe you will fail. And if you only go by the eyeball test and gut feeling, then you will fail too. It has to be a mix. Piniella seems to side more with gut feelings and uncoventional means to motivate his players, but 2 titles in 3 years speaks for itself. I'm not ready to kick him out the door when his success has been the best in the last 100 years of Cubs history.

 

Moving Theriot to 8th in the lineup and moving Byrd to leadoff doesn't make sense in a logical statistical world, but it may make sense in a human world. Theriot was put back to the top of the lineup yesterday and snapped out of his slump. Not all of Lou's moves will, or have worked, but I'm betting on the side of the only stat that really matters...winning 2 out of the last 3 division titles.

 

To sum up your eliquance , if we win who cares what Lou does, but I still think we need to crucifiy him if we go on a 20 game losing streak.

 

"If you start listening to the people in the stands you will soon become one"

Billy Martin

[Guest]

Lou Piniella has led the Cubs to 2 division titles in his 3 years here. That is the only stat I am concerned with as a fan. Especially concerning the bad contracts and strange personalities he has been given.

 

Baseball, and all of life, is played by humans. I love Strat-O-Matic and other sim games, but they are not realistic to the real world of humans. Piniella is very unconventional, but he seems to have a keen understanding of his group of humans.

 

A quick analogy: pure socialism is the best economic system ever devised...on paper. It allocates the resources the best and most efficient way possible. But it doesn't work with humans!!! Human greed is not satisfied in pure socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work either in the human world because it only satisfies human greed. It has to be a mix of the two systems to have a chance to work with humans. The debate will always be what kind of mix, but history has proven that the extremes of both systems have failed every time.

 

Sports work the same way. If you just go by the pure stats and statistical models, I truly believe you will fail. And if you only go by the eyeball test and gut feeling, then you will fail too. It has to be a mix. Piniella seems to side more with gut feelings and uncoventional means to motivate his players, but 2 titles in 3 years speaks for itself. I'm not ready to kick him out the door when his success has been the best in the last 100 years of Cubs history.

 

Moving Theriot to 8th in the lineup and moving Byrd to leadoff doesn't make sense in a logical statistical world, but it may make sense in a human world. Theriot was put back to the top of the lineup yesterday and snapped out of his slump. Not all of Lou's moves will, or have worked, but I'm betting on the side of the only stat that really matters...winning 2 out of the last 3 division titles.

 

I think you're giving Lou a bit too much credit. Look at his 3 years in Tampa. Those 3 years speak for themselves also. He had a bad team and couldn't make it any better now matter how well he managed them.

 

At the same time, Cubs ownership dropped anywhere from 120m to 140m on this team so that they can beat up on teams like Pittsburgh, Houston and Cincinnati with regularity. The roster was good enough to win more than they lost. This was not Lou working some sort of magic.

 

I have to side with the person who says that a manager can't really make a team win more games, but they sure can impact how many more they can lose. Putting Koyie Hill out there instead of Soto is one way to do that. Putting one of your best pitchers in the bullpen is another way to do that.

 

Giving the worst hitter on the roster the most at bats is another bad game plan. Leaving the hot hitting Soriano and Soto at the bottom of the roster also doesn't do much for the team in the run scoring department.

 

As bad as the bullpen has been, it's something that will eventually work itself out without having to have a panic attack over it, or to throw all caution to the wind and do the absolutely most stupid thing you can possibly do, like put your main go to starter in the bullpen.

[WTFCUBS]

Yahoo sports taking note of the carnage that is this thread. About a 1/4 of the way down the page.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Closing-Time-Rant-Upon-further-review-Big-Z-mo?urn=fantasy,235827

[soapy]

Yahoo sports taking note of the carnage that is this thread. About a 1/4 of the way down the page.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Closing-Time-Rant-Upon-further-review-Big-Z-mo?urn=fantasy,235827

 

It actually leads to TT's other thread. Good stuff.

[jaxxradio]

I'm gonna throw this out there since nobody has thought of it.. could this horrible move have been made by Mr. Ricketts himself? The guy is the owner and he can basically do whatever the heck he wants to do.. I doubt this is the case, but since nobody has thrown it out there...

[SouthSideRyan]

Dusty Baker won the division. We never should've let him leave.

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm gonna throw this out there since nobody has thought of it.. could this horrible move have been made by Mr. Ricketts himself? The guy is the owner and he can basically do whatever the heck he wants to do.. I doubt this is the case, but since nobody has thrown it out there...

 

There is literally no evidence of that being the case.

[bcl412]

Lou Piniella has led the Cubs to 2 division titles in his 3 years here. That is the only stat I am concerned with as a fan. Especially concerning the bad contracts and strange personalities he has been given.

 

Baseball, and all of life, is played by humans. I love Strat-O-Matic and other sim games, but they are not realistic to the real world of humans. Piniella is very unconventional, but he seems to have a keen understanding of his group of humans.

 

A quick analogy: pure socialism is the best economic system ever devised...on paper. It allocates the resources the best and most efficient way possible. But it doesn't work with humans!!! Human greed is not satisfied in pure socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work either in the human world because it only satisfies human greed. It has to be a mix of the two systems to have a chance to work with humans. The debate will always be what kind of mix, but history has proven that the extremes of both systems have failed every time.

 

Sports work the same way. If you just go by the pure stats and statistical models, I truly believe you will fail. And if you only go by the eyeball test and gut feeling, then you will fail too. It has to be a mix. Piniella seems to side more with gut feelings and uncoventional means to motivate his players, but 2 titles in 3 years speaks for itself. I'm not ready to kick him out the door when his success has been the best in the last 100 years of Cubs history.

 

Moving Theriot to 8th in the lineup and moving Byrd to leadoff doesn't make sense in a logical statistical world, but it may make sense in a human world. Theriot was put back to the top of the lineup yesterday and snapped out of his slump. Not all of Lou's moves will, or have worked, but I'm betting on the side of the only stat that really matters...winning 2 out of the last 3 division titles.

 

I don't know how much Lou had anything to do with winning the division 2 times. I think managers are overrated in baseball and they can do more harm then good.

 

And I don't understand why Lou's makes these knee jerk reactions so often. You'd think he'd understand that baseball is 162 games long since he's been in the game for so long.

[fiver]

Lou Piniella has led the Cubs to 2 division titles in his 3 years here. That is the only stat I am concerned with as a fan. Especially concerning the bad contracts and strange personalities he has been given.

 

Baseball, and all of life, is played by humans. I love Strat-O-Matic and other sim games, but they are not realistic to the real world of humans. Piniella is very unconventional, but he seems to have a keen understanding of his group of humans.

 

A quick analogy: pure socialism is the best economic system ever devised...on paper. It allocates the resources the best and most efficient way possible. But it doesn't work with humans!!! Human greed is not satisfied in pure socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work either in the human world because it only satisfies human greed. It has to be a mix of the two systems to have a chance to work with humans. The debate will always be what kind of mix, but history has proven that the extremes of both systems have failed every time.

 

Sports work the same way. If you just go by the pure stats and statistical models, I truly believe you will fail. And if you only go by the eyeball test and gut feeling, then you will fail too. It has to be a mix. Piniella seems to side more with gut feelings and uncoventional means to motivate his players, but 2 titles in 3 years speaks for itself. I'm not ready to kick him out the door when his success has been the best in the last 100 years of Cubs history.

 

Moving Theriot to 8th in the lineup and moving Byrd to leadoff doesn't make sense in a logical statistical world, but it may make sense in a human world. Theriot was put back to the top of the lineup yesterday and snapped out of his slump. Not all of Lou's moves will, or have worked, but I'm betting on the side of the only stat that really matters...winning 2 out of the last 3 division titles.

 

others have already mentioned it, but you are giving Lou too much credit for taking a team with a top payroll to the playoffs 2 out of 3 years....that certainly isn't the only 'stat' that really matters regarding whether we should trust Lou's decisions or not.

[Formerly Snayke]

Al Yellon thinks this was a good move.

[mjohnson71]

It took 1 hour 33 minutes for one of my Cardinals fan coworkers to come into my cube and give me cr*p this morning. About 10 minutes later this was followed up by someone else. If one more person comes by I'm going to hide in a conference room.

[Sammy Sofa]

Al Yellon thinks this was a good move.

 

That and Kaplan's ringing endorsement should be more than enough to reinforce how bad an idea this is.

[Clem Fandango]

One step closer to becoming a Twins fan this season. Thanks Lou

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Lou Piniella has led the Cubs to 2 division titles in his 3 years here. That is the only stat I am concerned with as a fan. Especially concerning the bad contracts and strange personalities he has been given.

 

Baseball, and all of life, is played by humans. I love Strat-O-Matic and other sim games, but they are not realistic to the real world of humans. Piniella is very unconventional, but he seems to have a keen understanding of his group of humans.

 

A quick analogy: pure socialism is the best economic system ever devised...on paper. It allocates the resources the best and most efficient way possible. But it doesn't work with humans!!! Human greed is not satisfied in pure socialism. Pure capitalism doesn't work either in the human world because it only satisfies human greed. It has to be a mix of the two systems to have a chance to work with humans. The debate will always be what kind of mix, but history has proven that the extremes of both systems have failed every time.

 

Sports work the same way. If you just go by the pure stats and statistical models, I truly believe you will fail. And if you only go by the eyeball test and gut feeling, then you will fail too. It has to be a mix. Piniella seems to side more with gut feelings and uncoventional means to motivate his players, but 2 titles in 3 years speaks for itself. I'm not ready to kick him out the door when his success has been the best in the last 100 years of Cubs history.

 

Moving Theriot to 8th in the lineup and moving Byrd to leadoff doesn't make sense in a logical statistical world, but it may make sense in a human world. Theriot was put back to the top of the lineup yesterday and snapped out of his slump. Not all of Lou's moves will, or have worked, but I'm betting on the side of the only stat that really matters...winning 2 out of the last 3 division titles.

 

others have already mentioned it, but you are giving Lou too much credit for taking a team with a top payroll to the playoffs 2 out of 3 years....that certainly isn't the only 'stat' that really matters regarding whether we should trust Lou's decisions or not.

 

Managers are like the groom at a wedding. They look important, but in reality, they have little to dowith it if the whole thing is a success, but if they go ape [expletive] crazy, they can sure [expletive] things up in a hurry.

[Wheelimus]

Okay, Zambrano's going to the pen. That still means that some type of roster move has to be made when Lilly comes back, right? As in, someone has to be removed to make room for Lilly, right? So who goes where?

Shark to the Bears [/old NSBB joke]

 

Hey now, didn't the Atlanta Hawks once effectively trade a failed draft pick to WCW Wrestling? (Giant Gonzales). It could work!

 

Z said he's ok with the move as long as he's back in the rotation for the playoffs.

 

He'll be too old by then to be effective.

 

I'm not sure if that isn't a tongue in cheek "HAHA, Playoffs, yeah right!" joke from Z

 

I just moved my opening day starter to the bullpen two weeks into the season. I'm going to pay him $18M dollars. Am I living the high life?

Cokes a hell of a drug

 

Seeing as Tuesday was 4/20 it's more likely pot. And the only reasonable explanation, Lou and Jimbo burnt up some Amsterdam kind bud and made this decision. They're both too embarrassed to admit it was the reefer talking to go back now.

[soapy]

I'll be honest that I'm partially surprised that none of my fellow Cub fans in the office or whatever haven't come to me endorsing the move with some sillyness about Zambrano's 7+ ERA and Silva's sub 1 ERA thru two weeks as validation. These same people will not hesitate to hate Silva in three weeks after a few bad starts though. Many people love knee-jerk reactions like this.

 

I wonder what Len/Bob actually think of the move out of curiousity. They really didn't express any opposition to the move during last night's broadcast (and spent a fair amount of time trying to rationalize it, IMO) but maybe they don't feel free to openly question Lou.