Harden done for season, Gorzelanny to rotation

[Sammy Sofa]

Wasnt' Harden claimed on waivers?

 

Yes, by the Twins.

 

A deal was not worked out.

[Proven Veteran]

Wasnt' Harden claimed on waivers?

 

Yes, by the Twins.

 

A deal was not worked out.

 

 

Why wouldn't they trade him if they are not planning to offer arbitration?

[Sammy Sofa]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

[Proven Veteran]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

 

 

That was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't make any sense to me.

[DuCross Brothers]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

[Sammy Sofa]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

 

There's little need to do this at this point. Moving a quality starter to the bullpen is either a move of necessity or desperation and Harden is not near either point. He shown repeatedly that with a little extra rest and some skipped starts he's often one of the best pitchers going. You'd think the Cubs would be able to follow something so obvious and yet here we are.

[MSG T]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

 

 

I'd take 25 starts and 150 IP of Harden over 50 relief appearances and 60 IP of Harden.

[Little Slide Rooter]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

 

 

That was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I think it was Bruce Miles who said that they wouldnt want to risk offering arb.

[Guest]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

I think he'll end up there, eventually. I'd bet he gets one more season to show he can stay healthy in a rotation, though.

[SouthSideRyan]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

I think he'll end up there, eventually. I'd bet he gets one more season to show he can stay healthy in a rotation, though.

 

What counts a healthy season? The past 2 have been fairly healthy.

[Guest]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

I think he'll end up there, eventually. I'd bet he gets one more season to show he can stay healthy in a rotation, though.

 

What counts a healthy season? The past 2 have been fairly healthy.

I think he needs to have another season of 30+ starts before people even begin to take the big red flashing health lights off his name.

[Sammy Sofa]

So if he can't start 30 or more games he should be relegated to the bullpen?

[Guest]

So if he can't start 30 or more games he should be relegated to the bullpen?

It would be the thinking by the majority of mlb teams, I'm sure. Which is what I was really trying to say.

[Sammy Sofa]

That really doesn't seem too good an idea if he can still give you around 25 starts a year. Those 25 starts would be much more valuable than time out of the pen.

[erik316wttn]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

 

 

That was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I think it was Bruce Miles who said that they wouldnt want to risk offering arb.

 

God forbid.

 

What would the Cubs be on the hook for, minimum, if arb was offered?

[Derwood]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

 

 

That was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I think it was Bruce Miles who said that they wouldnt want to risk offering arb.

 

God forbid.

 

What would the Cubs be on the hook for, minimum, if arb was offered?

 

No less than 80% of his current salary, right?

[CubColtPacer]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

 

 

That was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I think it was Bruce Miles who said that they wouldnt want to risk offering arb.

 

God forbid.

 

What would the Cubs be on the hook for, minimum, if arb was offered?

 

This isn't one of those cases where a true minimum can be established. The Cubs can offer as low as 5.6 million. But if they offer that low, they'll most certainly lose the arbitration case pretty much no matter what Harden's offer is.

 

Depending on who you ask, the Cubs are risking somewhere between 8-12 million if they offer arbitration.

[erik316wttn]

They said they're not going to often him arbitration?

 

 

That was mentioned somewhere. Doesn't make any sense to me.

 

I think it was Bruce Miles who said that they wouldnt want to risk offering arb.

 

God forbid.

 

What would the Cubs be on the hook for, minimum, if arb was offered?

 

No less than 80% of his current salary, right?

 

 

EDIT: Read CubColtPacer's post. I didn't realize that.

Edited September 25, 2009 by erik316wttn

[Guest]

There was a $7 million option on him picked up for this year, right? So 80% would be $5.6 million. The Cubs don't want to take the chance? If that's the case, Hendry needs to be fired this instant. There is NO reason not to take that chance as there is absolutely no downside whatsoever.

The practical floor for how much they'd have to pay in arbitration is much higher than that.

[RedFlash]

If you are not going to offered arb for Harden, then why shut him down two weeks before the seasons ends? I think Hendry will wake and realize you can't let a talented arm like Harden---despite his injury concerns---go without getting something back in return. Even if he accepts arb (and makes what anywhere from $7 mill to $9 mill in arb) you ould always trade him during the season if the Cubs do in fact continue to crap out. It would be epic stupid to let Harden go without arb. Cut bait with Miles, Heilman, and Gregg and you have more the enough to withstand Harden possibly accepting arb.

[DuCross Brothers]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

I think he'll end up there, eventually. I'd bet he gets one more season to show he can stay healthy in a rotation, though.

 

What counts a healthy season? The past 2 have been fairly healthy.

 

I'm trying to figure this out here. Check out his career numbers and tell me it doesn't have you re-thinking the situation?

 

'08-09: Harden had 25 and 26 starts

'06-07: Harden had arm problems and only managed the most 9 starts.

 

Each of the last 2 season's in ChiTown Harden while racking up 20+ starts has failed to make it to the end of the season without a injury to his arm. He hasn't broken 150 IP out side of his '04 yr in which he started to show signs of arm problems when he racked up 189 IP, before '05 when they started to flare up and then the next thing you know he was never the same after.

 

I mean 140 Innings is a pretty good thing for a pitcher if you get good outtings from, however even if your able to do that consist basis. If I were in his shoes regardless pitching good or not as a starter...I would ask myself a question is it worth putting strain on my arm going out there every night or what can I do to pro long my career and be a even bigger success? Harden is one of the top pitchers out there when healthy, but when do you start putting your career/future first? Sooner or leader arm injuries will shorten a pitchers career while going to the bullpen will slow that process down.

[Sammy Sofa]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

I think he'll end up there, eventually. I'd bet he gets one more season to show he can stay healthy in a rotation, though.

 

What counts a healthy season? The past 2 have been fairly healthy.

 

I'm trying to figure this out here. Check out his career numbers and tell me it doesn't have you re-thinking the situation?

 

'08-09: Harden had 25 and 26 starts

 

Why rethink? What you posted backs up what he said: he's been "fairly healthy" (at least) his two most recent seasons.

 

Given what he's done the last 2 seasons and how he's shown that with some extra rest how effective he can be I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want around 20-25 starts from a pitcher with that much talent as opposed to banishing him to the bullpen.

[Guest]

here's a idea....move this guy to a closer. He's got the stuff to be very good and you stand a better chance at minimizing his injuries.

I think he'll end up there, eventually. I'd bet he gets one more season to show he can stay healthy in a rotation, though.

 

What counts a healthy season? The past 2 have been fairly healthy.

 

I'm trying to figure this out here. Check out his career numbers and tell me it doesn't have you re-thinking the situation?

 

'08-09: Harden had 25 and 26 starts

 

Why rethink? What you posted backs up what he said: he's been "fairly healthy" (at least) his two most recent seasons.

 

Given what he's done the last 2 seasons and how he's shown that with some extra rest how effective he can be I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want around 20-25 starts from a pitcher with that much talent as opposed to banishing him to the bullpen.

Because:

 

1) they believe strongly in the theory of high-leverage innings

2) they believe that while Harden's made it through the past couple years relatively healthy, that may not continue

3) they believe he'll stay healthy in the pen

4) they believe that he'll be able to be strong and 100% effective at the end of the year when he's needed most

5) They don't want to be put in the position of finding spot starters and trying to find extra rest for Harden during the year to manage him properly as a starter

 

Not saying I agree with the position, but I can certainly understand the perspective.

[Tim M]

If you are not going to offered arb for Harden, then why shut him down two weeks before the seasons ends? I think Hendry will wake and realize you can't let a talented arm like Harden---despite his injury concerns---go without getting something back in return. Even if he accepts arb (and makes what anywhere from $7 mill to $9 mill in arb) you ould always trade him during the season if the Cubs do in fact continue to crap out. It would be epic stupid to let Harden go without arb. Cut bait with Miles, Heilman, and Gregg and you have more the enough to withstand Harden possibly accepting arb.

 

Harden shut himself down. I probably would offer arbitration to him but I certainly don't think it's ridiculous if the Cubs don't. People said Hendry was crazy for not offering Wood arbitration and that turned out to be the only good move he made all off-season.

[Sammy Sofa]

1) they believe strongly in the theory of high-leverage innings

2) they believe that while Harden's made it through the past couple years relatively healthy, that may not continue

3) they believe he'll stay healthy in the pen

4) they believe that he'll be able to be strong and 100% effective at the end of the year when he's needed most

5) They don't want to be put in the position of finding spot starters and trying to find extra rest for Harden during the year to manage him properly as a starter

 

Not saying I agree with the position, but I can certainly understand the perspective.

 

That's a lot of maybe's for a pitcher this good. Given the difference in value beween a quality starter pitcher and a bullpen pitcher they better be pretty damn sure of most, if not all, of those possibilities before moving him to the bullpen.