8/19 Other Games

[UMFan83]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

[RedFlash]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

 

Yeah but those turds are definately getting a good laugh at us over at gwrb.

[Outshined_One]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

 

Yeah but those turds are definately getting a good laugh at us over at gwrb.

 

We'd be laughing at them over here if the tables were turned.

[UMFan83]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

 

Yeah but those turds are definately getting a good laugh at us over at gwrb.

 

We'd be laughing at them over here if the tables were turned.

 

Yeah I could care less who is reading this forum and what sort of entertainment they are getting out of it. I sure had a lot of fun at their expense the previous 2 seasons.

[RedFlash]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

 

Yeah but those turds are definately getting a good laugh at us over at gwrb.

 

We'd be laughing at them over here if the tables were turned.

 

Maybe, but I don't like missing with karma cause it's a female dog. For once, I would like to mess with the Cards for having an epic choke job.

[gflore34]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

 

I know there may be references to 2006 but, all those journey-men garbage arms pitching out their collective minds are going to implode in the playoffs - provided they make the playoffs. That smoke and mirrors act has a funny way of turning around in the playoffs, seen it time and time again.

[webjim25]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error .

 

Before last night's games...

 

26 of the STL's 545 runs are unearned. Thats 4.7%.

22 of the Cubs 520 runs are unearned. Thats 4.2%.

 

30 of LA's 589 runs are unearned - 5.09%

31 of Colorado's 602 runs are unearned - 5.14%

30 of San Fran's 480 runs are unearned - 6.25%

26 of ATL's 531 runs are unearned - 5.09%

37 of Florida's 571 runs are unearned - 6.4%

[Little Slide Rooter]

The Cardinals are good...but they are also so damn lucky. Unless there is a skill to make their opponents commit a ton of errors. I swear half of their runs are aided by an error. Their offense hasn't even been that good...it's mostly pitching.

 

I know there may be references to 2006 but, all those journey-men garbage arms pitching out their collective minds are going to implode in the playoffs - provided they make the playoffs. That smoke and mirrors act has a funny way of turning around in the playoffs, seen it time and time again.

 

They have 2 ace caliber pitchers in Carpenter and Wainwright, so that could be all they really need. The rest of that rotation is pieced together with a bunch of crap they found on the side ofthe road, but its ot like the Phillies have anything great after you get around Lee and Hammels.

[illiniguy]

That Pujols sequence also happened for them against Pittsburgh about two weeks ago. So in the past three weeks they have beaten Broxton and Heath Bell. They also have tied the game against Broxton and KRod. All three All Star closers. It's their year.

[gflore34]

That Pujols sequence also happened for them against Pittsburgh about two weeks ago. So in the past three weeks they have beaten Broxton and Heath Bell. They also have tied the game against Broxton and KRod. All three All Star closers. It's their year.

 

I know you previously mentioned 2006 but, even this kind of crap has a way turning around in the playoffs. Wouldn't be one bit surprised if they lose a few games in a similar manner.

[illiniguy]

That Pujols sequence also happened for them against Pittsburgh about two weeks ago. So in the past three weeks they have beaten Broxton and Heath Bell. They also have tied the game against Broxton and KRod. All three All Star closers. It's their year.

 

I know you previously mentioned 2006 but, even this kind of crap has a way turning around in the playoffs. Wouldn't be one bit surprised if they lose a few games in a similar manner.

I would be, face it that type of stuff just does not happen to that franchise. They are the team that turns Ryan Ludwick's older brother into roided up Mark McGwire. Jeff Weaver has two good months in his entire career, which of course nets them a World Series. They trade for Matt Holliday, he mashes for over 1.200OPS. We trade for Nomar he's hurt for 2 plus years. It is what it is. Just be happy the few times we do beat them.

[ManEatingTarp]

The "luck" argument is a funny one.

 

Cardinal fans look at the last 2 years of Cubs teams and see a lot of "luck". Dempster coming out of nowhere to be one of the best pitchers in the league. Soto becoming ROY when he wasn't even a highly thought of prospect the year before. Theriot. The trade for Aramis that may be one of the best the Cubs have ever made.

 

The "bad luck" for the Cards has been pretty freaking bad. "The Call" in 1985 is historic. Rolen's shoulder injury in the playoffs that I've always believed cost them a shot at the WS. Vince Coleman having his leg broken by an automated Tarp (see user name) before the World Series. Mathany almost cutting his thumb off a few days before the playoffs. Ankiel's meltdown in those playoffs. And of course the veteran ace of our pitching staff dieing.

 

Not looking for sympathy, just pointing out that not all of the Cardinals' luck has been in the "good" column over the years.

 

It's all relative to the teams you root for and root against.

[SouthSideRyan]

The veteran ace dying was like the 5th best pitcher on the team that year. The veteran ace that died also miraculous became good after being terrible in Colorado.

[ManEatingTarp]

The veteran ace dying was like the 5th best pitcher on the team that year. The veteran ace that died also miraculous became good after being terrible in Colorado.

 

Um.. Actually he was the #2 starter on the team behind Morris, and the unquestioned leader of the pitching staff. He had 2 bad years in Colorado after a lot of success in Houston.

The only comparison that most Cub fans would understand today, is if Ted Lilly died suddenly.

 

I don't want to rehash a tragedy. I just wanted to point out that luck, both good and bad, is subjective. Not looking for sympathy, just trying to add some logic to the conversation.

[Schwarber Fan]

The "luck" argument is a funny one.

 

Cardinal fans look at the last 2 years of Cubs teams and see a lot of "luck". Dempster coming out of nowhere to be one of the best pitchers in the league. Soto becoming ROY when he wasn't even a highly thought of prospect the year before. Theriot. The trade for Aramis that may be one of the best the Cubs have ever made.

 

The "bad luck" for the Cards has been pretty freaking bad. "The Call" in 1985 is historic. Rolen's shoulder injury in the playoffs that I've always believed cost them a shot at the WS. Vince Coleman having his leg broken by an automated Tarp (see user name) before the World Series. Mathany almost cutting his thumb off a few days before the playoffs. Ankiel's meltdown in those playoffs. And of course the veteran ace of our pitching staff dieing.

 

Not looking for sympathy, just pointing out that not all of the Cardinals' luck has been in the "good" column over the years.

 

It's all relative to the teams you root for and root against.

 

A few things here... lets talk about the extent of the luck

 

Sure, Dempster and Soto had awesome years, but it didn't win the Cubs crap in the end while the Cardinals win the 2006 world series with arguably the least talented playoff team of all time. And sure, Duncan is a great pitching coach, but guys like Joel Piniero and Ryan Franklin just magically become unstoppable?! If Smoltz sees success, that will be the final straw.

 

Ryan Ludwick, Rick Ankiel, Skip Schumaker - these guys should not be as good as they are, while nearly every Cub hitter is under-performing this season.

 

If you want, I can refute every one of your arguments:

 

"The Call" in 1985 is historic.

 

You have won a world series since then, so I'm going to say it cancels this out

 

Rolen's shoulder injury in the playoffs that I've always believed cost them a shot at the WS. Vince Coleman having his leg broken by an automated Tarp (see user name) before the World Series. Mathany almost cutting his thumb off a few days before the playoffs

 

Mark Prior anyone? EVERY Cub this season seemingly. We've had Dempster break a toe celebrating a win and Kerry Wood slip in his hottub.

 

Ankiel's meltdown in those playoffs.

 

But he came back as an offensive force - that didn't happen to Rich Hill

 

And of course the veteran ace of our pitching staff dieing.

 

ABSOLUTELY no disrespect intended here, but the ace of our staff - Mark Prior's career has died as well.

 

Don't even try to compare our luck wit yours.

[illiniguy]

I also love the Aramis trade being included. He wasn't even the main point of the trade at the time. Lofton was. Ramirez was hitting about .230 at the time of that trade. Not hardly comparable to picking up Mark McGwire for a bunch of crap. Without him you might not even have your new ballpark.

 

How about Albert Pujols? How many guys picked where he is go on to be the best player of their generation?

 

I am not even saying its bad, it just is what it is. We run out a team like you did for '06 and we don't even make the playoffs. Case in point look at our '01 season.

[ManEatingTarp]

I'm not saying that good and unexpected things haven't happened to the Cards. The biggest "lucky" thing was taking that kid in the 13th round a little over a decade ago.

 

I'm just pointing out that bad things have happened over the years. Not EVERYTHING goes the Cardinals way. Is it better to be lucky than good? I don't think it's an either or. Like the old saying goes "good teams make their own luck".

 

The Cubs have had more than their share of bad breaks. My Dad is a die hard, and I actually feel bad for him. The Cubs ARE going to kill him one of these days...

 

 

And believe me, we could win 10 more World Series titles and 1985 would still hurt. The same will always be true for 2003 and the Cubs. That stuff just doesn't go away.

[ManEatingTarp]

I also love the Aramis trade being included. He wasn't even the main point of the trade at the time. Lofton was. Ramirez was hitting about .230 at the time of that trade. Not hardly comparable to picking up Mark McGwire for a bunch of crap. Without him you might not even have your new ballpark.

 

How about Albert Pujols? How many guys picked where he is go on to be the best player of their generation?

 

I am not even saying its bad, it just is what it is. We run out a team like you did for '06 and we don't even make the playoffs. Case in point look at our '01 season.

 

That's EXACTLY why I included the Aramis trade. He was a bad defensive 3rd baseman with a little power. Now, when he's healthy he's one of the best hitters in the game, and he's become a + defender. Great trade.

 

What people forget about 2006 is that team didn't get healthy till the playoffs. The 2004 104 win team had the lucky experience of running into the team of destiny Red Sox. Luck? Sure. Every WS team has luck working for them. That comes back to the whole "Playoffs are a crap shoot" discussion.

[illiniguy]

I'm not saying that good and unexpected things haven't happened to the Cards. The biggest "lucky" thing was taking that kid in the 13th round a little over a decade ago.

 

I'm just pointing out that bad things have happened over the years. Not EVERYTHING goes the Cardinals way. Is it better to be lucky than good? I don't think it's an either or. Like the old saying goes "good teams make their own luck".

 

The Cubs have had more than their share of bad breaks. My Dad is a die hard, and I actually feel bad for him. The Cubs ARE going to kill him one of these days...

 

 

And believe me, we could win 10 more World Series titles and 1985 would still hurt. The same will always be true for 2003 and the Cubs. That stuff just doesn't go away.

We win a title and most of us will quickly forget 03. It's been a hundred years. A lot of us have had grandparents and parents be born and die without seeing a title. You wouldn't even begin to understand that.

[Ricky Vaughn]

AramisFan, some of your counterarguments don't really hold that much water.

 

If Smoltz sees success, that will be the final straw.

 

Why? Look, Smoltz is clearly not the same guy he used to be, but he's the only guy in MLB history with 200 wins and 150 saves. The idea that he could come to a good NL team, with a good pitching coach, and have success over a two month span is not so completely incomprehensable. Not likely, but definitely not out of the question, and not a matter of luck.

 

You have won a world series since then, so I'm going to say it cancels this out

 

There's absolutely no logic to that. If the Cubs win the World Series, does that mean everyone all of a sudden forgets about all of the hardships the franchise has gone through, since "Hey, they ended up winning a World Series anyway." A horrible call in the 9th inning of a game that would have won them the World Series is pretty bad luck. Winning a World Series 21 years later doesn't really change that.

 

Mark Prior anyone? EVERY Cub this season seemingly. We've had Dempster break a toe celebrating a win and Kerry Wood slip in his hottub.

 

All you've done here is prove his point. Bad luck has happened to both teams.

 

But he came back as an offensive force - that didn't happen to Rich Hill

 

Rich Hill was A) Never the pitching talent that Ankiel was, and B) Never the hitting prospect Ankiel was. When he was part of the US Amateur team, Ankiel was the only pitcher in the tournament that didn't have a DH, and on days he didn't pitch, he would either play OF, or DH himself. The fact that the guy happens to be immensely talented isn't luck.

 

ABSOLUTELY no disrespect intended here, but the ace of our staff - Mark Prior's career has died as well.

 

Prior's career falling off the cliff was a lot more like Mark Mulder's doing the same. Both were very good, both were supposed to be "injury proof" due to their mechanics, and both went through a period where the teams kept giving them rest, rather than identifying the problem, which only made it worse. If you look, they even hit the wall at the same point. Both were last relevant in 2005, Mulder's 1st season in St. Louis

 

Mulder '05 16-8 3.64 ERA

Prior '05 11-7 3.67 ERA

 

That's the much more apt comparison. But the Cubs have never had to try to emotionally put the pieces together after losing a teammate in midseason.

[illiniguy]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

[Schwarber Fan]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

 

exactly, I don't know if Cardinals fans don't understand it or what the deal is, but most of the Cards fans around in 1985 were around to see the 2006 title, how can that not make up for it?

 

Maybe it's our fanbase that doesn't get it.

[jersey cubs fan]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

 

I'd like more than one. I'd like one now, and at least one more later in life. But one is going to be a bigger deal than the 2nd.

[ManEatingTarp]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

 

exactly, I don't know if Cardinals fans don't understand it or what the deal is, but most of the Cards fans around in 1985 were around to see the 2006 title, how can that not make up for it?

 

Maybe it's our fanbase that doesn't get it.

 

MLB Network played Game 6 of the 85 series a couple weekends ago. I decided to watch it even though I knew what was going to happen.

I actually got angry when I saw the play again. 24 years later and it still makes me want to punch something.

 

Maybe I'm just crazy...

 

The Cubs will win a series one of these days, but people will still remember 2003 & 2008. It won't hurt as bad, but it will still be there.

Like I said, I have a interesting perspective because I'm a Cardinals fan, but I live in Chicago and the rest of my family are all Cubs fans. Pain through proxy.

[Ricky Vaughn]

I love the whole you never get over it thing if you get one taken from you. Am I the only one who only wants one title in my lifetime? We get one I forget all the other crap and everything after it would be gravy.

 

exactly, I don't know if Cardinals fans don't understand it or what the deal is, but most of the Cards fans around in 1985 were around to see the 2006 title, how can that not make up for it?

 

Maybe it's our fanbase that doesn't get it.

 

Sorry, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Yes, winning a title would/should help soothe a lot of wounds. I'm simply saying it doesn't erase what happened before. And, for the sake of this argument, Aramis Fan, it seemed to me like you were saying it did. I disagree.

 

Like I said, if the Cubs win, the fan base will be happy. But, does that mean that people will stop talking about everything they've been through? Red Sox fans still talk about Bucky Dent, Aaron Boone, trading Ruth, etc. even though they're the only team in this decade with two World Series titles. Winning them has allowed them to become smug, while referring to the horrors of the past still allows them to play the scorned role.

 

Of course, none of us would really know for sure. A Cubs fan can assume that the Cards would/should forget about 85, but without being in that position, they don't really know. If/when the Cubs get there, they'll know. As an Indians fan, I'll probably never know.