Why the Cubs can't get Halladay

[Cubbie Swagger]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

[NCCubFan]

If we upgraded the rotation by adding Halladay we'd lose games 2-1 that we'd otherwise lose 4-1.

[Jehrico]

Why the Cubs can't get Halladay

 

by erik316wttn:

 

Their farm system sucks.

 

The end.

Am I the only person that thinks our farm has taken some big steps forward this year, and could actually be average by league standards next year?

[dew1679666265]

Why the Cubs can't get Halladay

 

by erik316wttn:

 

Their farm system sucks.

 

The end.

Am I the only person that thinks our farm has taken some big steps forward this year, and could actually be average by league standards next year?

 

It's gotten much, much better with Wilken's recent drafts and some good international signings.

 

The high level (AAA) still isn't stocked that well, but AA and A have some very nice players developing well right now.

[CubColtPacer]

Why the Cubs can't get Halladay

 

by erik316wttn:

 

Their farm system sucks.

 

The end.

Am I the only person that thinks our farm has taken some big steps forward this year, and could actually be average by league standards next year?

 

No, you are most definitely not. The article is right-for one reason or another, the drafts of 2003-2006 were really bad. That has left a void in the high minors right now which causes the bad rankings and lack of possible trades (not much MLB ready talent). 2007-2008 was much better (2009 doesn't really have any sample yet) which is going to flip the rankings around once again as they are getting to the high levels of the minors.

 

The international signings have also helped and we haven't even felt the full impact of that yet. Rhee and Lee have been noticed while Ha and Jung haven't been yet because while high schoolers drafted high typically get a grace year in the prospect rankings before they start sliding international prospects especially from Asia have to prove themselves first since so little is known about them.

 

This year many of our interesting prospects have taken big steps forward, especially at pitching and SS.

[Guest]

Why the Cubs can't get Halladay

 

by erik316wttn:

 

Their farm system sucks.

 

The end.

Am I the only person that thinks our farm has taken some big steps forward this year, and could actually be average by league standards next year?

 

No, you are most definitely not. The article is right-for one reason or another, the drafts of 2003-2006 were really bad. That has left a void in the high minors right now which causes the bad rankings and lack of possible trades (not much MLB ready talent). 2007-2008 was much better (2009 doesn't really have any sample yet) which is going to flip the rankings around once again as they are getting to the high levels of the minors.

 

The international signings have also helped and we haven't even felt the full impact of that yet. Rhee and Lee have been noticed while Ha and Jung haven't been yet because while high schoolers drafted high typically get a grace year in the prospect rankings before they start sliding international prospects especially from Asia have to prove themselves first since so little is known about them.

 

This year many of our interesting prospects have taken big steps forward, especially at pitching and SS.

 

A developing SS? You stop it right now. That's just crazy talk.

[dew1679666265]

Why the Cubs can't get Halladay

 

by erik316wttn:

 

Their farm system sucks.

 

The end.

Am I the only person that thinks our farm has taken some big steps forward this year, and could actually be average by league standards next year?

 

No, you are most definitely not. The article is right-for one reason or another, the drafts of 2003-2006 were really bad. That has left a void in the high minors right now which causes the bad rankings and lack of possible trades (not much MLB ready talent). 2007-2008 was much better (2009 doesn't really have any sample yet) which is going to flip the rankings around once again as they are getting to the high levels of the minors.

 

The international signings have also helped and we haven't even felt the full impact of that yet. Rhee and Lee have been noticed while Ha and Jung haven't been yet because while high schoolers drafted high typically get a grace year in the prospect rankings before they start sliding international prospects especially from Asia have to prove themselves first since so little is known about them.

 

This year many of our interesting prospects have taken big steps forward, especially at pitching and SS.

 

A developing SS? You stop it right now. That's just crazy talk.

 

A few of them, actually.

 

Darwin Barney, Hak-Ju Lee, Starlin Castro

[Guest]

Has Flaherty already been moved?

[dew1679666265]

Has Flaherty already been moved?

 

I don't think so. I just forgot about him when I made that list off the top of my head.

[illiniguy]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

Pie wasn't in the group.

Here's off the top of my head who I remember us having.

Corey Patterson-he flopped it happens.

Mark Prior-I would say his '03 and '04 made him worth the hype.

Bobby Hill-He turned into Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. That worked out well for us.

Hee Seop Choi-He turned into DLee. That worked out well for us.

Carlos Zambrano

Juan Cruz-we should have been more patient with him.

David Kelton-He flopped it happens.

Angel Guzman-having a great year, really wish he would have stayed healthy.

 

So basically even though you claim that whole group of guys flopped, we actually got productive 3 and 4 hitters who play plus defense at the corners, an ace, and a great bullpen arm.

[Soul]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

Pie wasn't in the group.

Here's off the top of my head who I remember us having.

Corey Patterson-he flopped it happens.

Mark Prior-I would say his '03 and '04 made him worth the hype.

Bobby Hill-He turned into Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. That worked out well for us.

Hee Seop Choi-He turned into DLee. That worked out well for us.

Carlos Zambrano

Juan Cruz-we should have been more patient with him.

David Kelton-He flopped it happens.

Angel Guzman-having a great year, really wish he would have stayed healthy.

 

So basically even though you claim that whole group of guys flopped, we actually got productive 3 and 4 hitters who play plus defense at the corners, an ace, and a great bullpen arm.

 

It seems like all the "he flopped it happens" guys are all hitters who never developed plate discipline, correct?

 

Pretty clear to me we have been deficient in developing great hitters in our farm system. Pitching has been a better endeavor.

 

So we need to get some better hitting instruction on our farm. I don't see why 30 years goes by and we don't do this.

[JeffH]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

Pie wasn't in the group.

Here's off the top of my head who I remember us having.

Corey Patterson-he flopped it happens.

Mark Prior-I would say his '03 and '04 made him worth the hype.

Bobby Hill-He turned into Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. That worked out well for us.

Hee Seop Choi-He turned into DLee. That worked out well for us.

Carlos Zambrano

Juan Cruz-we should have been more patient with him.

David Kelton-He flopped it happens.

Angel Guzman-having a great year, really wish he would have stayed healthy.

 

So basically even though you claim that whole group of guys flopped, we actually got productive 3 and 4 hitters who play plus defense at the corners, an ace, and a great bullpen arm.

 

While it's nice to be able to trade farm products for established major leaguers (Lee, Ramirez), it's much, much better to be able to actually grow your own. That way, you get the benefit of the productive, cheap years. If your system stinks at producing hitters, you'll always have to pay market price for guys, which usually involves paying them lots of money when they're no longer productive.

[bukie]

The Cubs are getting better at developing hitters, thanks in large part to Joshua. With Soto, Theriot, Hoffpauir, Fox and Hill, there are actually 5 farm products actively contributing to the major league team this year. Hill maybe more out of necessity than anything else, but it beats spending 3 million dollars on a backup C.

[Guest]

Koyie Hill? A Cubs farm product? Seriously?

 

Hill first played in AAA in 2003, which is the first year he saw some major league at bats. He was originally with the Dodgers, then played with Arizona and then with NYY before playing for the Cubs. Calling him a Cubs farm product would be similar to calling Aaron Miles a Cubs farm product.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I wish Miles was a Cubs farm product. If so, hed still be competing with Bobby Scales and Sam Fuld for cups of coffee.

[illiniguy]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

Pie wasn't in the group.

Here's off the top of my head who I remember us having.

Corey Patterson-he flopped it happens.

Mark Prior-I would say his '03 and '04 made him worth the hype.

Bobby Hill-He turned into Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. That worked out well for us.

Hee Seop Choi-He turned into DLee. That worked out well for us.

Carlos Zambrano

Juan Cruz-we should have been more patient with him.

David Kelton-He flopped it happens.

Angel Guzman-having a great year, really wish he would have stayed healthy.

 

So basically even though you claim that whole group of guys flopped, we actually got productive 3 and 4 hitters who play plus defense at the corners, an ace, and a great bullpen arm.

 

It seems like all the "he flopped it happens" guys are all hitters who never developed plate discipline, correct?

 

Pretty clear to me we have been deficient in developing great hitters in our farm system. Pitching has been a better endeavor.

 

So we need to get some better hitting instruction on our farm. I don't see why 30 years goes by and we don't do this.

I agree, I'm all for a new regime. But, to say everythign cub was overrated is a bit much. When we had that highly reguarded system it was warranted.

[jersey cubs fan]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

Pie wasn't in the group.

Here's off the top of my head who I remember us having.

Corey Patterson-he flopped it happens.

Mark Prior-I would say his '03 and '04 made him worth the hype.

Bobby Hill-He turned into Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. That worked out well for us.

Hee Seop Choi-He turned into DLee. That worked out well for us.

Carlos Zambrano

Juan Cruz-we should have been more patient with him.

David Kelton-He flopped it happens.

Angel Guzman-having a great year, really wish he would have stayed healthy.

 

So basically even though you claim that whole group of guys flopped, we actually got productive 3 and 4 hitters who play plus defense at the corners, an ace, and a great bullpen arm.

 

It seems like all the "he flopped it happens" guys are all hitters who never developed plate discipline, correct?

 

Pretty clear to me we have been deficient in developing great hitters in our farm system. Pitching has been a better endeavor.

 

So we need to get some better hitting instruction on our farm. I don't see why 30 years goes by and we don't do this.

I agree, I'm all for a new regime. But, to say everythign cub was overrated is a bit much. When we had that highly reguarded system it was warranted.

 

How is it a bit much. The fact that the Cubs got Ramirez and Lee for a couple guys who have done nothing does not support your argument that the Cubs system was not overrated. In fact it strongly supports the idea that it was very highly overrated.

 

Also, Pie was signed in 2001, and he was playing in their system in 2002 and 2003, probably the last times the system was highly rated. He's at least as much a part of that era as Prior.

[inari]

I'm still a big believer in Hee Seop Choi. I think if handled properly he really could have been a good player.

[erik316wttn]

The amazing part is that it doesn't seem like that long ago that the Cubs had one of the top farm systems in baseball. Then again, if I recall correctly, that was when we had guys like Patterson, Dubois, and Pie who all never panned out. So it wasn't actually one of the best, it was just rated as such.

Pie wasn't in the group.

Here's off the top of my head who I remember us having.

Corey Patterson-he flopped it happens.

Mark Prior-I would say his '03 and '04 made him worth the hype.

Bobby Hill-He turned into Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton. That worked out well for us.

Hee Seop Choi-He turned into DLee. That worked out well for us.

Carlos Zambrano

Juan Cruz-we should have been more patient with him.

David Kelton-He flopped it happens.

Angel Guzman-having a great year, really wish he would have stayed healthy.

 

So basically even though you claim that whole group of guys flopped, we actually got productive 3 and 4 hitters who play plus defense at the corners, an ace, and a great bullpen arm.

 

It seems like all the "he flopped it happens" guys are all hitters who never developed plate discipline, correct?

 

Pretty clear to me we have been deficient in developing great hitters in our farm system. Pitching has been a better endeavor.

 

So we need to get some better hitting instruction on our farm. I don't see why 30 years goes by and we don't do this.

I agree, I'm all for a new regime. But, to say everythign cub was overrated is a bit much. When we had that highly reguarded system it was warranted.

 

When Kelton, Montanez, Hill, and Choi are regarded as your "infield of the future" and all were projected as all-stars, and every single one fizzled, your system was overrated.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Am I the only one who sees JP Ricciardi as the dorky kid on the playground with the really cool toy, and while he wants everyone to comehang out with him, he has no intention of letting any of the other kids play with it?

[jersey cubs fan]

When Kelton, Montanez, Hill, and Choi are regarded as your "infield of the future" and all were projected as all-stars, and every single one fizzled, your system was overrated.

 

They weren't really projected as an all-star infield, as most realized it was likely that 1 or more would not even make it, and nobody assumed they'd be all stars, but the point stands.

[IlliniGuy99]

How is it a bit much. The fact that the Cubs got Ramirez and Lee for a couple guys who have done nothing does not support your argument that the Cubs system was not overrated. In fact it strongly supports the idea that it was very highly overrated.

That's exactly right - I've tried to make that argument a couple of times myself.

 

You can't just look at who we got for our prospects, all that does is show that we hyped them well enough to fool another team into trading for them. That may be good GM'ing, but it's not good player development.

 

Hopefully the player development is actually improving (and not just the hype) - even with a high payroll it's very difficult to field a good team every year without a decent farm system.

[dew1679666265]

You can't just look at who we got for our prospects, all that does is show that we hyped them well enough to fool another team into trading for them. That may be good GM'ing, but it's not good player development.

 

Your latter point may stand, but the reason the other team traded for a player isn't necessarily just hype from the original team. Maybe Florida and Pittsburgh genuinely saw what the Cubs scouts saw in Choi and Hill and felt they could produce at a high level. Just because a player doesn't pan out doesn't mean he was all hype - the talent could be there.

[dew1679666265]

When Kelton, Montanez, Hill, and Choi are regarded as your "infield of the future" and all were projected as all-stars, and every single one fizzled, your system was overrated.

 

We also had, at the time, Mark Prior, Carlos Zambrano, Juan Cruz, Angel Guzman, Dontrelle Willis, Ricky Nolasco, Todd Wellemeyer and Brendan Harris who were helping those high rankings as well - and all of these guys have had some type of major league success.

[inari]

I'm quite sure Dontrelle Willis wasn't really helping any of our rankings.