2008-09 NBA Playoffs

[SpongeWorthy]

I'd say I don't care if they win, just getting to witness LeBron's greatness, but I'd be lying.

 

Nah way man... apparently the only way you're the best player is if you win championships... screw your physical dominance and utterly amazing skill.

 

Uh yeah, give me an example of someone considered one of the best players of all time that hasn't won a championship? This isn't baseball. If you're truly the best in basketball, you're on championship winning teams. That's nothing new.

 

Dan Marino sucked.

 

No, but not one really says he's the best football player of all time either. Anyway, I was talking about basketball--even a quarterback can't carry a team to a title like a dominant talent in basketball can.

[ELCABALLO45]

I'd say I don't care if they win, just getting to witness LeBron's greatness, but I'd be lying.

 

Nah way man... apparently the only way you're the best player is if you win championships... screw your physical dominance and utterly amazing skill.

 

Uh yeah, give me an example of someone considered one of the best players of all time that hasn't won a championship? This isn't baseball. If you're truly the best in basketball, you're on championship winning teams. That's nothing new.

 

Dan Marino sucked.

 

No, but not one really says he's the best football player of all time either. Anyway, I was talking about basketball--even a quarterback can't carry a team to a title like a dominant talent in basketball can.

 

Basketball is a team sport. Jordan had Pippen, Kobe had Shaq. Duncan had Robinson, then Manu and Parker.

[Mike Aller]

I'd say I don't care if they win, just getting to witness LeBron's greatness, but I'd be lying.

 

Nah way man... apparently the only way you're the best player is if you win championships... screw your physical dominance and utterly amazing skill.

 

Uh yeah, give me an example of someone considered one of the best players of all time that hasn't won a championship? This isn't baseball. If you're truly the best in basketball, you're on championship winning teams. That's nothing new.

 

Dan Marino sucked.

 

No, but not one really says he's the best football player of all time either. Anyway, I was talking about basketball--even a quarterback can't carry a team to a title like a dominant talent in basketball can.

Put LeBron on the a roster like the Timberwolves every year of his career. He wont win one. Given, he doesn't have that problem, and he will have good teams around him, but there ARE things that are beyond the players control.

 

To me, it's like judging wins in baseball. Yes, if the guy pitches better than anyone in baseball, there is a good chance he'll lead the league in wins. But, he still relies on his teammates for those wins as well.

[TruffleShuffle]

I'd say I don't care if they win, just getting to witness LeBron's greatness, but I'd be lying.

 

Nah way man... apparently the only way you're the best player is if you win championships... screw your physical dominance and utterly amazing skill.

 

Uh yeah, give me an example of someone considered one of the best players of all time that hasn't won a championship

 

elgin baylor. what do i win?

[SpongeWorthy]

I'd say I don't care if they win, just getting to witness LeBron's greatness, but I'd be lying.

 

Nah way man... apparently the only way you're the best player is if you win championships... screw your physical dominance and utterly amazing skill.

 

Uh yeah, give me an example of someone considered one of the best players of all time that hasn't won a championship

 

elgin baylor. what do i win?

 

Elgin Baylor wasn't even considered the best player on his own team during those years.

[Cynosure]

LeBron James > MJ ... this from a Bulls fan. Game is different these days but I have never in my lifetime seen anyone as dominant as James. Then again I'm only 22.

[ELCABALLO45]

LeBron is so good

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Karl Malone

[hardcorecubfan]

Sounds like a lot of hate toward Cavs but like Michigan in NCAA Cleveland, as a city, needs this. Just like Chicago needed the bulls to win in the 90's .

 

LeBron is great for the community just like Jordan was, and like I said nobody wants to see a defensive player of the year VS those guys in Denver in the finals. They want Kobe and Lebron

[ELCABALLO45]

Karl Malone

[BigSlick]

The only thing that could have made me feel better after that Cubs loss was to see Lebron lose and to experience the shadenfreude of him being upset

 

the sports gods couldn't even give me that, they are worthless and are false gods

[ELCABALLO45]

Game 6 is the final chance for Orlando to pull this thing out. I just cant see winning game 7 on the road. (Yeah i know they beat the Celtics last round, but this isnt the same team)

[TruffleShuffle]

charles barkley

[Guest]

Game 6 is the final chance for Orlando to pull this thing out. I just cant see winning game 7 on the road. (Yeah i know they beat the Celtics last round, but this isnt the same team)

 

Completely agree. Saturday is it for the Magic.

[Andy]

Basketball is a team sport. Jordan had Pippen, Kobe had Shaq. Duncan had Robinson, then Manu and Parker.

For one thing, it's 'Shaq had Kobe' until Kobe wins a title by himself. And for another, the best players make their teams that much better so that they win the title. Jordan did have Pippen, but he also had guys like Toni Kukoc, Ron Harper, Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright - guys that never did anything when Jordan wasn't on the court making them better basketball players. I use Jordan because I know him best, but I'm positive that all the other examples you listed, and many many more, had players that really weren't that good but were made better because they were playing with a phenomenal player.

[illiniguy]

Karl Malone

In what year was Karl Malone the best player in the game? And no the answer isn't when they got tired of giving the MVP to Michael.

[illiniguy]

charles barkley

This could be it. He was amazing in '93. But even that year he had an amazing Kevin Johnson. A once in a lifetime, hey I'm sober, Richard Dumas. He also had Tom Chambers on that team.

[David]

Do we really need specific examples? It's pretty likely that if Jerry Krause hadn't paired Jordan up with Scottie Pippen or a similarly great player and the Bulls kept producing rosters like those of the mid 80's around him, he never would've won a title. Same player, same skills, same abilities, but no rings.

[illiniguy]

Do we really need specific examples? It's pretty likely that if Jerry Krause hadn't paired Jordan up with Scottie Pippen or a similarly great player and the Bulls kept producing rosters like those of the mid 80's around him, he never would've won a title. Same player, same skills, same abilities, but no rings.

Well there's two holes to that theory. The first being Jordan probably improved from his early 20's to late 20's. Secondly a lot of the other stars retired around this point leaving the league more wide open. While I don't think that MJ would have won without Pippen, you can't ever really know for sure.

 

I've always wondered too if Pippen wasn't helped more by Jordan becoming a more complete player and helping make his teammates better.

[David]

Do we really need specific examples? It's pretty likely that if Jerry Krause hadn't paired Jordan up with Scottie Pippen or a similarly great player and the Bulls kept producing rosters like those of the mid 80's around him, he never would've won a title. Same player, same skills, same abilities, but no rings.

Well there's two holes to that theory. The first being Jordan probably improved from his early 20's to late 20's. Secondly a lot of the other stars retired around this point leaving the league more wide open. While I don't think that MJ would have won without Pippen, you can't ever really know for sure.

 

I've always wondered too if Pippen wasn't helped more by Jordan becoming a more complete player and helping make his teammates better.

 

Pippen was an absolutely great player (on both ends of the court). I hate when people try to sell him short (and I know that you're not doing that). That team was great without Jordan. You took Jordan away from the 93 team, replaced him, essentially, with Pete Meyers and Toni Kukoc, and the team was still a bad call away from the conference finals and who knows how far thereafter.

 

I feel safe enough saying that without Pippen and with a bad supporting cast like those Bulls of early in his career, Jordan would probably not have won a single ring. That said, with an average supporting cast, he might've pulled off one or two. But the point was that if the team around him is bad enough, even the GOAT could probably go an entire career without a ring. Obviously, it's just a made up hypothetical, so it proves nothing at all, really, but it illustrates the point.

[illiniguy]

Do we really need specific examples? It's pretty likely that if Jerry Krause hadn't paired Jordan up with Scottie Pippen or a similarly great player and the Bulls kept producing rosters like those of the mid 80's around him, he never would've won a title. Same player, same skills, same abilities, but no rings.

Well there's two holes to that theory. The first being Jordan probably improved from his early 20's to late 20's. Secondly a lot of the other stars retired around this point leaving the league more wide open. While I don't think that MJ would have won without Pippen, you can't ever really know for sure.

 

I've always wondered too if Pippen wasn't helped more by Jordan becoming a more complete player and helping make his teammates better.

 

Pippen was an absolutely great player (on both ends of the court). I hate when people try to sell him short (and I know that you're not doing that). That team was great without Jordan. You took Jordan away from the 93 team, replaced him, essentially, with Pete Meyers and Toni Kukoc, and the team was still a bad call away from the conference finals and who knows how far thereafter.

 

I feel safe enough saying that without Pippen and with a bad supporting cast like those Bulls of early in his career, Jordan would probably not have won a single ring. That said, with an average supporting cast, he might've pulled off one or two. But the point was that if the team around him is bad enough, even the GOAT could probably go an entire career without a ring. Obviously, it's just a made up hypothetical, so it proves nothing at all, really, but it illustrates the point.

There is no doubt that Pippen became an amazing player that dominated the game at both ends. His point forward ability changed the way people developed teams. I agree with most of what you said, my only thing is I cannot see LeBron going down as the best ever if he doesn't somehow find a way to win a ring.

[wolf stansson]

I cannot see LeBron going down as the best ever if he doesn't somehow find a way to win a ring.

Especially in a sport who's observers rely so heavily on anecdotal evaluation like Basketball.

[cubweiser03]

NBA Top 50 Players during the 90s

Barkely-Ran into Jordan, lost

Malone-Ran into Jordan twice in finals, lost both times

Stockton-See above

Ewing-Ran into Jordan too many times to count and never won

Drexler-Ran into Jordan, lost

Isiah-Beat MJ three times, got swept never to be seen again.

Magic-Ran into Jordan, lost

Hakeem won 2 championships during MJ's first retirement (MJ's short return year they lost in the EC finals), when Jordan returned to the finals The Dream never returned back to the finals.

 

All these top 50 no championship guys would of probably won the title if it wasnt for MJ winning 6 championships in 6 years. So much of what i remember hearing about Jordan pre titles is the same as Lebron. Scores too much, guards dont win championships alone without a big man, not as good as Magic, Bird until he wins one. LeBrons story is yet to be written as Jordans was too, if he doesnt win at least one i will be totally shocked.

[Andy]

I feel safe enough saying that without Pippen and with a bad supporting cast like those Bulls of early in his career, Jordan would probably not have won a single ring. That said, with an average supporting cast, he might've pulled off one or two. But the point was that if the team around him is bad enough, even the GOAT could probably go an entire career without a ring. Obviously, it's just a made up hypothetical, so it proves nothing at all, really, but it illustrates the point.

It's probably fair to qualify the point and provide that the team's front office surrounds said awesome player with a supporting cast that isn't trash. Provided there's at least one other very good player and a few good role players on his team, the greatest player of any given era should win a title or more.

[Mike Aller]

And how about this as an example: Michael Jordan.

 

There was a time where he was easily the best player in the league although he had no championships.