Re: Cleveland Indians DFA Andy Marte

[Tim]

With Aramis Ramirez taking month long vacations at times in his career, he would be a good guy to have on the bench. I'm not sure if it's worth a roster spot to keep him around, since he can only play the corners and maybe corner outfield, though its a stretch, but he's better to have than Gathright and probably better to have around than Hoffpauir. He's got LOADS of potential and just turned 25.

 

 

The Indians could release, outright or trade him.

[jersey cubs fan]

It would be convenient to have a backup 3B, however, it still leaves the Cubs with one backup for MI, something I doubt they would like. Ironically, the Cubs are pretty short of RH bench bats, and could probably use one. However, Marte has really sucked.

[PackLandVA]

Wasn't Marte the centerpiece of a trade with the Braves a few years back?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Former top prospect?

DFAd?

Couldnt cut it in the big leagues?

Worked for Josh Hamilton and Carlos Quentin.

 

Im sure a ton of teams are thinking the same thing, and someone will scoop him up and give him an invite.

[17 Seconds]

Former top prospect?

DFAd?

Couldnt cut it in the big leagues?

Worked for Josh Hamilton and Carlos Quentin.

 

Im sure a ton of teams are thinking the same thing, and someone will scoop him up and give him an invite.

 

Marte's situation isn't even remotely close to the situations of Hamilton and Quentin. Marte wasn't good in the minors. Quentin and Hamilton both raked in the minors. Quentin was never given a real chance in the majors. Hamilton was let go because of drugs. Quentin wasn't DFAd. He was just traded because Byrnes is an idiot.

 

Quentin and Hamilton were/are legitimately good. Andy Marte sucks.

[CubColtPacer]

It would be convenient to have a backup 3B, however, it still leaves the Cubs with one backup for MI, something I doubt they would like. Ironically, the Cubs are pretty short of RH bench bats, and could probably use one. However, Marte has really sucked.

 

That all depends on who the final bench spot is. Right now with only 4 spots locked down, the Cubs have:

 

against left-handers the top 2 options are Johnson and then Miles (hitting with his slightly better side)

 

against right-handers the top 2 options are Miles (hitting with his slightly worse side) and then Gathright.

 

Of course, that is against right-handed starters. Against left-handed starters, there will be Fontenot and Fukudome on the bench.

 

So either way you go, you're going to have problems. If you put another right-handed hits lefties well player on the bench, suddenly your bench hits lefties very well but will struggle mightily against righties.

 

Give the job to Hoffpauir and you don't have any right handed hitters on your bench on any day where there is a left-handed starter.

 

I would say the bench needs a capable left-handed hitter for that last spot more than a right-handed hitter, but there's going to be a deficiency either way.

[Mike Aller]

Andy Marte is bad at professional baseball.

[SweetZombieJesus]

He was just traded because Byrnes is an idiot.

 

uh did they start using the DH in the NL when I wasn't looking? Wasn't Quentin traded because they had too many OF's and corner infielders?

[17 Seconds]

He was just traded because Byrnes is an idiot.

 

uh did they start using the DH in the NL when I wasn't looking? Wasn't Quentin traded because they had too many OF's and corner infielders?

 

You don't give away an elite prospect because you can't fit him into a mix of unspecial players. That's silly.

 

They traded him so they could give a long term deal to Eric Byrnes. Real smart.

[SweetZombieJesus]

You don't give away an elite prospect because you can't fit him into a mix of unspecial players. That's silly.

 

Yeah Chris Young and Justin Upton are real mediocrities.

[17 Seconds]

You don't give away an elite prospect because you can't fit him into a mix of unspecial players. That's silly.

 

Yeah Chris Young and Justin Upton are real mediocrities.

 

Umm do Chris Young or Justin Upton play left field for the Diamondbacks?

 

 

They traded Quentin to lock up Byrnes in LF. I already told you that.

 

P.S. ... for the record, Chris Young isn't really good. When he posts an OPS+ over 91 maybe we can start talking about him being a good player. Not that it matters though, since he plays center, not left.

[Mephistopheles]

Andy Marte is bad at professional baseball.

 

Marte's situation isn't even remotely close to the situations of Hamilton and Quentin. Marte wasn't good in the minors. Quentin and Hamilton both raked in the minors. Quentin was never given a real chance in the majors. Hamilton was let go because of drugs. Quentin wasn't DFAd. He was just traded because Byrnes is an idiot.

 

Quentin and Hamilton were/are legitimately good. Andy Marte sucks.

 

This is completely wrong. To believe that Marte wasn't good in the minors is to be stupid. I mean a .297 EqA in Low A as an eighteen year old sucks! And then a .318 EqA in Hi A as a 19 year old. CRAP! And a .300 EqA as a 20 year old in Double A. Crap! And a .290 EqA as a 21 year old in his first go-round in the Triple A. Crap! Since then he's been jerked between the majors and minors and has struggled because of this. Regardless he's still got more tools and potential than Carlos Quentin and is one of the most talented 25 year olds in baseball. There's no doubting his struggles recently has dimmed his star, but there's also no doubting that if Aramis Ramirez goes down for any month stretch, which given Errormiss's health seems well within the realm of possibility, the Cubs will be in a fiasco because we have no one in the high minors worth crap who can hit enough to play third. Ditto for our bench. Miles can't. Sure Marte hasn't but he's got a chance to and at this point in his career can be had for nothing.

 

There's not a lot at stake at making this move.

 

But you can bet your ass that he was VERY good in the minors. Again, don't talk about things you don't follow. You obviously don't follow baseball in Japan nor the minors here.

[17 Seconds]

Sorry Meph, an .823 minor league OPS from a corner infielder is not good. I like the excuse you use for his sucking ass in his last 709 minor league at-bats though. Dude just caught a tough break. SOmething makes sense as long as it backs up your argument, right Meph?

 

Congratulations on using the word stupid again though.

 

P.S. I'd have no problem picking him up to back up Aramis. I just think it's funny how hard you work to try and validate false info.

[Mephistopheles]

P.S. ... for the record, Chris Young isn't really good. When he posts an OPS+ over 91 maybe we can start talking about him being a good player. Not that it matters though, since he plays center, not left.

 

Wrong again. He is very good presently. While he's not an above average hitter, he's right around a league average hitter for a centerfielder. He's got good skills in the outfield and is probably pretty damn close to an average defensive centerfielder and he runs the bases pretty well. So overall he's produced as an average outfielder the last two seasons, despite his shortcomings as an OBP guy. He's done this as a 23 and 24 year old. He also had a very good three year romp in the minors where he has a career EqA north of .300 which bodes VERY highly for his development as a hitter at the major league level in the immediate future, since I know that power tends to develop most after he hits 25, meaning his power should only increase and should develop into a consistent 30+ HR centerfielder with average defensive skills. If OBP is his only deficiency he'll still be a well above average player. He's certainly a "good" player. To think otherwise is to be oblivious from reality. It's quite apparent.

[17 Seconds]

P.S. ... for the record, Chris Young isn't really good. When he posts an OPS+ over 91 maybe we can start talking about him being a good player. Not that it matters though, since he plays center, not left.

 

Wrong again. He is very good presently. While he's not an above average hitter, he's right around a league average hitter for a centerfielder. He's got good skills in the outfield and is probably pretty damn close to an average defensive centerfielder and he runs the bases pretty well. So overall he's produced as an average outfielder the last two seasons, despite his shortcomings as an OBP guy. He's done this as a 23 and 24 year old. He also had a very good three year romp in the minors where he has a career EqA north of .300 which bodes VERY highly for his development as a hitter at the major league level in the immediate future, since I know that power tends to develop most after he hits 25, meaning his power should only increase and should develop into a consistent 30+ HR centerfielder with average defensive skills. If OBP is his only deficiency he'll still be a well above average player. He's certainly a "good" player. To think otherwise is to be oblivious from reality. It's quite apparent.

 

Did I say he was bad? No. I said he was unspecial. WHich is true. There you go trying to talk people intop agreeing you again, with the "that's stupid" and "you're oblvious fromr eality stuff". It doesn't work meph.

 

Really I love the way you try soooo hard to validate your weak arugments though. You always find some sort of combination of numbers that you think can skew the argument in your favor, but they never end up being true. Then you make up fake stats. It's pretty funny.

 

Chris Young is not "very good" presently. Stop trying to make it true.

 

he's not an above average hitter

 

is probably pretty damn close to an average defensive centerfielder

 

=

 

He is very good presently

 

?

 

So he's an average hitter for his position and an average defender. So how much that makes him "very good presently"?

 

Either way, none of this matters. Quentin wouldn't have replaced Young. He would have replaced Byrnes. I suppose you'll probably whip up a "Meph Special" of stat combinations that might fool people into thinking Eric Byrnes is awesome

[Mephistopheles]

Sorry Meph, an .823 minor league OPS from a corner infielder is not good. I like the excuse you use for his sucking ass in his last 709 minor league at-bats though. Dude just caught a tough break. SOmething makes sense as long as it backs up your argument, right Meph?

 

You just love to fixate on things you don't know too well. OPS is trash in the minors. It's stupid to look at. He came up through the Atlanta Braves system. The Braves system runs through some of the toughest parks to hit in in all the minors. He started out in Macon, a TOUGH park on home runs. He then went to Myrtle beach, a TOUGH park on home runs. Next he went to the Southern League, which kills most young power hitters, and went into Greenville, which might be the toughest place to hit there, and raked. He finally went to Richmond which is another place tough to hit. Buffalo isn't great either, but that's not the problem.

 

He hasn't "sucked ass" in his last 709 minor league at bats. He still hit above league average. He spent the two seasons jumping between the majors and the minors. For him to struggle when he got inconsistent playing time for the first time in his career is something to expect. We saw much of the same last year. It's not that he has done well or that he's even good. It's the simple fact that he's talented, young, has a good track record and we have NO ONE as an insurance policy if brittle errormiss goes down. It costs us nothing and there's a chance he develops into something. If he gets released, which is possible since he cleared waivers, then there's no reason not to scoop him up since we can stash him in Iowa, let him get consistent playing time.

 

There's no reason not to.

[17 Seconds]

Again, I never said I didn't want him.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Cmon, Marte regressed in almost every way imaginable in 3 different AAA seasons(okay, his strikeout rate went down his last year). We're talking about being over 3 seasons removed from the last time he did anything positive to his value as a player. I'd take him with open arms with the alternative in the minor leagues being Josh Lansford right now, but let's not pretend Marte just caught a bad break or something, in terms of time he's as far removed from being good as Mark Prior is.

[Mephistopheles]

Really I love the way you try soooo hard to validate your weak arugments though. You always find some sort of combination of numbers that you think can skew the argument in your favor, but they never end up being true. Then you make up fake stats. It's pretty funny.

 

Chris Young is not "very good" presently. Stop trying to make it true.

 

So he's an average hitter for his position and an average defender. So how much that makes him "very good presently"?

 

The world's not static and the world's not a show-me first world. I should have worded it a bit differently, but it doesn't matter. He's PRODUCED at a league average centerfielder the last two seasons. That DOES NOT mean he WAS a league average player at the time nor that he was NOT a good outfielder. In reality, we don't know what he is. You don't. I don't. God doesn't. Allah doesn't. Even Outshine_One doesn't.

 

In reality we have to take the best possible guess of what his true talent level is at any given time. We don't just look at his numbers in the seasons produced and say "He's a ____ player." That's foolish. Was Darrell May a good pitcher in 2003? No, he was a shitty pitcher who produced well for one season. Nothing more. Was Jake Peavy a bad pitcher in 2006? No, he was an elite pitcher who didn't produce well for one season. Nothing less. In order to gauge his true talent curve we have to take everything into consideration.

 

Before his major league career, everything we have points to him being better than what he produced in 2007 and 2008. You don't have to increase his line by much for him to be a "good player". In fact, all you have to do is put the two years he produced in 2007 and 2008 and ignore his minor league success and put those two seasons on a normal age curve for someone like him and he is "good" right now. Nevermind that in reality his "struggles" last season were really contained to June and the rest of the season he was a "good" player.

 

You sum up all of the data and the only conclusion that you can come to is that, at the very least, he's a "good" player now and his true talent level the last two years was also "good". In fact, I'm sure this means nothing to you, but there's no statistically significant difference between a "good" player and a league average player for two years. Obviously there very may well be one between a star and him, but being a good player isn't much above league average.

[Mephistopheles]

Cmon, Marte regressed in almost every way imaginable in 3 different AAA seasons(okay, his strikeout rate went down his last year. We're talking about being over 3 seasons removed from the last time he did anything positive to his value as a player. I'd take him with open arms with the alternative in the minor leagues being Josh Lansford right now, but let's not pretend Marte just caught a bad break or something, in terms of time he's as far removed from being good as Mark Prior is.

 

No one is saying he is good as once was as a prospect. What I am saying is that we can have him for nothing, and right now even in his diminished form, he's better than our plan B. It's an obvious move.

[17 Seconds]

Cmon, Marte regressed in almost every way imaginable in 3 different AAA seasons(okay, his strikeout rate went down his last year. We're talking about being over 3 seasons removed from the last time he did anything positive to his value as a player. I'd take him with open arms with the alternative in the minor leagues being Josh Lansford right now, but let's not pretend Marte just caught a bad break or something, in terms of time he's as far removed from being good as Mark Prior is.

 

Pretty muchmy thoughts exactly. I'd definately take him, but I don't see the point in trying to talk him up and act like his last 2 AAA stints were not his fault.

[Clem Fandango]

Byrnes had a career year and was a team leader for that young team. Meanwhile, Carlos Quentin struggled to hit for the power he showed in the minors at a major league level, and pretty much struggled to do much of anything at the plate while he had the starting job in 2007. All the while Justin Upton was scorching through the minors at age 19 ready to be the second coming of Jesus.

 

So what do you do? Do you bid farewell to a team leader who had a career year or trade the guy who, for all intents and purposes, sucked and was playing a position that was blocking Jesus Squared?

 

They trade him. It makes sense. In the end they got Dan Haren because of Carlos Quentin, which I would say is kind of a wash now. But it would've been a steal. there was no way of knowing that Carlos Quentin was going to produce like he did last year. He dwarfed his best minor league numbers a year after he put up a 63 OPS+ in the majors while playing in "the worst division in baseball" at the time. While none of us would've resigned Byrnes like the D-Backs did, I think if we were faced with the decision at the end of 2007 to keep Byrnes, replace Quentin with Upton, and trade Quentin to complete a deal for Haren, we'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

That being said, Eric Byrnes is on my list of people I want to punch in the face for being a douche

[BigbadB]

How many years has it been now that Marte was minor league player of the year? Seems like 5 or 6, but he's only 25 now? :shock:

[Mephistopheles]

Pretty muchmy thoughts exactly. I'd definately take him, but I don't see the point in trying to talk him up and act like his last 2 AAA stints were not his fault.

 

I'm not saying his last two stints in Triple A weren't his fault. I'm saying that the environment around him was unconducive to his success in Triple A. And in general, it's an obvious move to look into.

[17 Seconds]

Byrnes had a career year and was a team leader for that young team. Meanwhile, Carlos Quentin struggled to hit for the power he showed in the minors at a major league level, and pretty much struggled to do much of anything at the plate while he had the starting job in 2007. All the while Justin Upton was scorching through the minors at age 19 ready to be the second coming of Jesus.

 

So what do you do? Do you bid farewell to a team leader who had a career year or trade the guy who, for all intents and purposes, sucked and was playing a position that was blocking Jesus Squared?

 

They trade him. It makes sense. In the end they got Dan Haren because of Carlos Quentin, which I would say is kind of a wash now. But it would've been a steal. there was no way of knowing that Carlos Quentin was going to produce like he did last year. He dwarfed his best minor league numbers a year after he put up a 63 OPS+ in the majors while playing in "the worst division in baseball" at the time. While none of us would've resigned Byrnes like the D-Backs did, I think if we were faced with the decision at the end of 2007 to keep Byrnes, replace Quentin with Upton, and trade Quentin to complete a deal for Haren, we'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

Getting rid of a top prospect so you can keep a guy who has poor career numbers because of his clubhouse presence is a bad move to me. I'd take the production over the clubhouse prsence every single day.

 

And Chris Carter didn't allow them to get Haren. Carlos Gonzalez did. I'm sure they could have worked about something for Haren without Carter.

 

Right now they should have Quentin in LF and Haren in the rotation. It wasn't one or the other.

Edited February 20, 2009 by 17 Seconds