Abreu to the Angels?

[CubinNY]

What TT said.

 

He's on the downside of his career, and at best he's giving away 1/3rd of his offensive value on defense, some say more. I don't want him taking up a valuable corner outfield spot.

Whomever those some are, are drunken idiots. He's a friggen OFer.

 

He's not the guy he once was and Bradley is by far the better player though.

[cubsfan26]

actually miles has nothing to do with abreu

 

All player salaries are related, regardless of position.

 

 

It only is if that player will join your team for that same salary. Everytime people see a guy sign a deal, they assume he would have signed with the Cubs for that salary. Does anyone really think Abreu signs with the Cubs for 5m? Also if were complaining about Miles for 2.2m next year, shouldn't the Mets fans be complaining about signing Alex Cora to a 1y deal at 2m? They could use Abreu alot more then us, right now. Samething goes for the Reds who signed Jerry Hairston to 2m deal. There's a bunch of teams that signed middle infielders to simliar contracts that could be saying the samething right now. Again to bring up Miles and Abreu topic is just more pointless complaining. I'm not picking on you Dexter, just that people are even talking about this is silly. Simple fact is there was a market for back up middle infielders this offseason(alot of them got paid), and not one for ageing corner outfielders.

Edited February 11, 2009 by cubsfan26

[rocket]

jim hendry is paying 2.5 million a year for a backup middle infielder in a market where a very productive corner outfielder is going between 8 million and 10 million a year.

 

this makes hendry look very bad.

[17 Seconds]

What TT said.

 

He's on the downside of his career, and at best he's giving away 1/3rd of his offensive value on defense, some say more. I don't want him taking up a valuable corner outfield spot.

Whomever those some are, are drunken idiots. He's a friggen OFer.

 

Is outfield defense not that important now?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

What TT said.

 

He's on the downside of his career, and at best he's giving away 1/3rd of his offensive value on defense, some say more. I don't want him taking up a valuable corner outfield spot.

Whomever those some are, are drunken idiots. He's a friggen OFer.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=945&position=OF

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Taken from discussion on GRB: "Looking at Dewan's +/- numbers, this doesn't look like such a great deal. Over the last three years, Abreu is a collective -52 in RF (ranking 32nd, 32nd, and 34th among all RFers over the last 3 years)."

[17 Seconds]

actually miles has nothing to do with abreu

 

All player salaries are related, regardless of position.

 

 

It only is if that player will join your team for that same salary. Everytime people see a guy sign a deal, they assume he would have signed with the Cubs for that salary. Does anyone really think Abreu signs with the Cubs for 5m? Also if were complaining about Miles for 2.2m next year, shouldn't the Mets fans be complaining about signing Alex Cora to a 1y deal at 2m? They could use Abreu alot more then us, right now. Samething goes for the Reds who signed Jerry Hairston to 2m deal. There's a bunch of teams that signed middle infielders to simliar contracts that could be saying the samething right now. Again to bring up Miles and Abreu topic is just more pointless complaining. I'm not picking on you Dexter, just that people are even talking about this is silly. Simple fact is there was a market for back up middle infielders this offseason, and not one for ageing corner outfielders.

 

Timing is irrelevant to this conversation. A GM has the ability to wait out a market. It's his job to get the best deal. To excuse him for potentially overpaying for a guy because of the way the markey shaped up doesn't make sense. In that case, it's the GMs fault for acting too quickly.

 

Does anybody think Abreu signs with the Cubs for 5m? If the Cubs were interested in him right now, why not? Were the Cubs forced to sign an outfielder in January? Of course not. Thata rgument makes no sense. Also those guys you mentioed as comparisons all got less than half the total money Miles got, so I don't get the comparison. Why did we have to guarantee 2 years when they only had to guarantee one?

 

Why do you always criticize people for "complaining just for the sake of complaining"? Which is worse....voicing reasonable complaints, or being determined to give Hendry and the Cubs FO a free pass? It's okay to question their moves you know.

 

Also if you say there was no market for corner outfielders, why did we pay so much for one?

[CubinNY]

What TT said.

 

He's on the downside of his career, and at best he's giving away 1/3rd of his offensive value on defense, some say more. I don't want him taking up a valuable corner outfield spot.

Whomever those some are, are drunken idiots. He's a friggen OFer.

 

Is outfield defense not that important now?

Yes.

 

Of course not. but the frequency of chances is a lot less than in the IF and the opportunities to make plays that others wouldn't is pretty significantly reduced. Said another way, Bradley (or any other corner OF this side of Carl Crawford) isn't going to be making significantly more plays than Abreu. It's a distinction without a meaningful difference.

 

Defense is the new OBP. Except the OBP thing was really important and the defensive stuff is just nonsense (with notable exceptions on both sides of the curve).

 

We've all been through this before I'm not going through it again.

[17 Seconds]

What TT said.

 

He's on the downside of his career, and at best he's giving away 1/3rd of his offensive value on defense, some say more. I don't want him taking up a valuable corner outfield spot.

Whomever those some are, are drunken idiots. He's a friggen OFer.

 

Is outfield defense not that important now?

Yes.

 

Of course not. but the frequency of chances is a lot less than in the IF and the opportunities to make plays that others wouldn't is pretty significantly reduced. Said another way, Bradley (or any other corner OF this side of Carl Crawford) isn't going to be making significantly more plays than Abreu. It's a distinction without a meaningful difference.

 

Defense is the new OBP. Except the OBP thing was really important and the defensive stuff is just nonsense (with notable exceptions on both sides of the curve).

 

We've all been through this before I'm not going through it again.

 

I've made it known on this board that I'm not a fan of defensive metrics and I don't understand the sudden infatuation with defense, but come. You really don't think there's a meaningful difference between Abreu and an average to above average defender? Really?

[imb]

there are parts of abreu's game that are nice, but overall he seems like one of those break-even players that don't cut it in a position where you need to get a high percentage of your production.

 

his defense isn't going to get better, it will only stay the same or worsen. And that's bad, because his bat is good, but he's already tossing a large portion of that out the window by being so bad in the field. Now he's old and on the downside, and the odds of him making up for his glove with his bat go down every day.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

In the infield you either make the play or you don't. In the outfield you can actually catch the ball, you can save extra bases on plays you don't, and you can throw out runners. Especially given that, I'm not sure there's significantly fewer chances in the outfield.

[cubsfan26]

Does anybody think Abreu signs with the Cubs for 5m? If the Cubs were interested in him right now, why not? Were the Cubs forced to sign an outfielder in January? Of course not. Thata rgument makes no sense. Also those guys you mentioed as comparisons all got less than half the total money Miles got, so I don't get the comparison. Why did we have to guarantee 2 years when they only had to guarantee one?

 

Because the market for Bradley was guarantee him 2 years, while it wasn't for Abreu? I thought the goal was to add the best players, not get the best bargin. Sure we could have waited a bit and got a better bargin, but then we would have gotten a lesser player. It also would have made a bigger market for Abreu if we were still on the market for a RF, which would have probably gotten Abreu more money as well.

 

Why do you always criticize people for "complaining just for the sake of complaining"? Which is worse....voicing reasonable complaints, or being determined to give Hendry and the Cubs FO a free pass? It's okay to question their moves you know

 

Nobody is giving Hendry a free pass, it's just stupid to bash him for paying back up middle infielders the price they were getting paid this offseason. If Hendry is the only GM who does this, then I can understand these comments. But there's 5-7 back up middle infielders that got paid simliar money. It's not his fault that ageing corner outfielders aren't getting paid much more then back up infielders this offseason. The Cubs weren't in the market for a ageing corner outfielder, they wanted Bradley.

 

Also if you say there was no market for corner outfielders, why did we pay so much for one?

 

Because we added one of the top ones on the market this offseason, who's currently only 30. The Cubs feel he's the best oufielder on the market not name Manny Ramirez. I never said there wasn't a market for any corner outfielder. There just wasn't much of one for the ones 35 or older with declining stats. This offseason teams put Abreu at the Andersons/Griffey level. While Bradley, Ibanez, Burrell, and Dunn were the guys who got 8-10m plus per year. All four of those guys would have gotten paid simliar salaries if they signed with other teams.

Edited February 11, 2009 by cubsfan26

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

actually miles has nothing to do with abreu

 

All player salaries are related, regardless of position.

 

 

It only is if that player will join your team for that same salary. Everytime people see a guy sign a deal, they assume he would have signed with the Cubs for that salary. Does anyone really think Abreu signs with the Cubs for 5m? Also if were complaining about Miles for 2.2m next year, shouldn't the Mets fans be complaining about signing Alex Cora to a 1y deal at 2m? They could use Abreu alot more then us, right now. Samething goes for the Reds who signed Jerry Hairston to 2m deal. There's a bunch of teams that signed middle infielders to simliar contracts that could be saying the samething right now. Again to bring up Miles and Abreu topic is just more pointless complaining. I'm not picking on you Dexter, just that people are even talking about this is silly. Simple fact is there was a market for back up middle infielders this offseason, and not one for ageing corner outfielders.

 

Timing is irrelevant to this conversation. A GM has the ability to wait out a market. It's his job to get the best deal. To excuse him for potentially overpaying for a guy because of the way the markey shaped up doesn't make sense. In that case, it's the GMs fault for acting too quickly.

 

Does anybody think Abreu signs with the Cubs for 5m? If the Cubs were interested in him right now, why not? Were the Cubs forced to sign an outfielder in January? Of course not. Thata rgument makes no sense. Also those guys you mentioed as comparisons all got less than half the total money Miles got, so I don't get the comparison. Why did we have to guarantee 2 years when they only had to guarantee one?

 

Why do you always criticize people for "complaining just for the sake of complaining"? Which is worse....voicing reasonable complaints, or being determined to give Hendry and the Cubs FO a free pass? It's okay to question their moves you know.

 

Also if you say there was no market for corner outfielders, why did we pay so much for one?

 

 

Timing is relevant to the conversation.

 

Waiting on the market is risky. Bradley's deal in light of deals from previous years isn't a bad deal. But after the market settled, there were and still are a lot of bargains. But there was no guarantee that these guys were still going to be out there. Teams with real needs and the money to meet those needs targeted players they wanted and signed them.

 

If we knew that we could have gotten Abreu for this deal, then maybe it would have been a good idea to wait. On the other hand, there was no way to know that for sure.

 

I'm more upset on the Miles deal. But that's not so much because I think the money is bad; it's just that I'm not high on Miles. This offseason has been strange because many players aren't getting the deals they would have gotten in the past.

 

But assume Hendry gambled on the market and ended up missing out on Bradley, Abreu, and Dunn because he waited on a bargain. What would you be saying then?

 

It's easy to look at all this in hindsight. But in reality, at least in comparing Abreu to Bradley, I think Hendry got the better player, even if he had to spend more to do it.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Abreu has very little to do with Miles, you can't expect Hendry to think "I'm going to wait on adding a crucial part to my team because the market might unexpectedly tank".

 

The problem is 1) Signing Miles at all, 2) considering Miles a crucial part of a team, and 3) paying Miles 2/5 regardless of the market conditions.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Abreu has very little to do with Miles, you can't expect Hendry to think "I'm going to wait on adding a crucial part to my team because the market might unexpectedly tank".

 

The problem is 1) Signing Miles at all, 2) considering Miles a crucial part of a team, and 3) paying Miles 2/5 regardless of the market conditions.

 

This is my sentiment.

 

This is the first time in many, many years that players have become the bargains they are this offseason. Hendry should not be faulted for signing Bradley regardless of what Dunn or Abreu signed for.

 

The Miles signing is bad because it's a 2-year deal for Aaron Freaking Miles, not because of the other bargains to be had.

[KingCubsFan]

It's not really a gamble at this point. Bradley gets hurt every year. And they're both probably below average defensively. At this point, the only gamble is whether Bradley will be as bad as Abreu defensively or a little better for the 100-110 games he's out there.

 

That's some pretty nasty equivocating.

 

FRAA put the difference between Bradley and Abreu last season at about 25 runs.

I'd like to know how they got those numbers, considering Bradley has barely played in the field since he tore up his knee. And he wasn't a gold glover before then either.

[KingCubsFan]

In the infield you either make the play or you don't. In the outfield you can actually catch the ball, you can save extra bases on plays you don't, and you can throw out runners. Especially given that, I'm not sure there's significantly fewer chances in the outfield.

An infielder can do everything you mentioned, except they get more chances than a right fielder.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

It's not really a gamble at this point. Bradley gets hurt every year. And they're both probably below average defensively. At this point, the only gamble is whether Bradley will be as bad as Abreu defensively or a little better for the 100-110 games he's out there.

 

That's some pretty nasty equivocating.

 

FRAA put the difference between Bradley and Abreu last season at about 25 runs.

I'd like to know how they got those numbers, considering Bradley has barely played in the field since he tore up his knee. And he wasn't a gold glover before then either.

 

I don't believe FRAA's formula is public. But no matter what metric you use, the results are more or less than same: Braldey is around average, sometimes a little above, sometimes a little below. Abreu is awful.

[CubColtPacer]

In the infield you either make the play or you don't. In the outfield you can actually catch the ball, you can save extra bases on plays you don't, and you can throw out runners. Especially given that, I'm not sure there's significantly fewer chances in the outfield.

An infielder can do everything you mentioned, except they get more chances than a right fielder.

 

Middle infielders get the most chances, but there's very few plays on where they stop an extra base hit. It's either a single or an out.

 

Corner infielders and outfielders get less chances, but good ones also let fewer doubles/triples sneak through than those who don't. So to turn it around and use terms that are usually just in batting/pitching stats-the defensive OBP difference between good and bad players for OF and corner players is lower than middle infielders (due to the number of chances), but the defensive SLG difference is higher, which means that the actual total impact each position can make is closer than it appears.

[UMFan83]

What about...

 

(don't quote me on the salaries, i dont feel like looking it up)

 

Abreu (5m) + DeRosa (5.5m) or Bradley (10m) + Miles (2.2m) + the other FA the Cubs will probably sign to back up 1st and 3rd

 

Remember this is all hypothetical.

[17 Seconds]

Abreu has very little to do with Miles, you can't expect Hendry to think "I'm going to wait on adding a crucial part to my team because the market might unexpectedly tank".

 

The problem is 1) Signing Miles at all, 2) considering Miles a crucial part of a team, and 3) paying Miles 2/5 regardless of the market conditions.

 

This is my sentiment.

 

This is the first time in many, many years that players have become the bargains they are this offseason. Hendry should not be faulted for signing Bradley regardless of what Dunn or Abreu signed for.

 

The Miles signing is bad because it's a 2-year deal for Aaron Freaking Miles, not because of the other bargains to be had.

 

I don't really think anybody is faulting him for signing Bradley in this thread. I noyl brought him up because that guy brought up outfielders and how they is no market for them. I'm talking about Miles being a bad signing.

[KingCubsFan]

In the infield you either make the play or you don't. In the outfield you can actually catch the ball, you can save extra bases on plays you don't, and you can throw out runners. Especially given that, I'm not sure there's significantly fewer chances in the outfield.

An infielder can do everything you mentioned, except they get more chances than a right fielder.

 

Middle infielders get the most chances, but there's very few plays on where they stop an extra base hit. It's either a single or an out.

 

Corner infielders and outfielders get less chances, but good ones also let fewer doubles/triples sneak through than those who don't. So to turn it around and use terms that are usually just in batting/pitching stats-the defensive OBP difference between good and bad players for OF and corner players is lower than middle infielders (due to the number of chances), but the defensive SLG difference is higher, which means that the actual total impact each position can make is closer than it appears.

People on this board consistently say that starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers. I'm not sure that this is any different logically. Also, he didn't specify between middle infielders and corner infielders. The point I was making is that infielders, as a whole, can do all those things.

Edit: And also, I would say it's more important to have the ability to stop a single than a double in most cases. An out>>an extra base. In either case, each defender is preventing the runner from advancing one base.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Abreu has very little to do with Miles, you can't expect Hendry to think "I'm going to wait on adding a crucial part to my team because the market might unexpectedly tank".

 

The problem is 1) Signing Miles at all, 2) considering Miles a crucial part of a team, and 3) paying Miles 2/5 regardless of the market conditions.

 

This is my sentiment.

 

This is the first time in many, many years that players have become the bargains they are this offseason. Hendry should not be faulted for signing Bradley regardless of what Dunn or Abreu signed for.

 

The Miles signing is bad because it's a 2-year deal for Aaron Freaking Miles, not because of the other bargains to be had.

 

I don't really think anybody is faulting him for signing Bradley in this thread. I noyl brought him up because that guy brought up outfielders and how they is no market for them. I'm talking about Miles being a bad signing.

 

 

But the Miles signing is a bad signing regardless of what Abreu got. Abreu could have gotten 4/40 and I'd still think Miles was a bad signing. Miles isn't a bad signing because we're paying him 2.5 million this year. It's a bad signing because he's Aaron Miles.

[cubbinalltheway]

Abreu has very little to do with Miles, you can't expect Hendry to think "I'm going to wait on adding a crucial part to my team because the market might unexpectedly tank".

 

The problem is 1) Signing Miles at all, 2) considering Miles a crucial part of a team, and 3) paying Miles 2/5 regardless of the market conditions.

 

This is my sentiment.

 

This is the first time in many, many years that players have become the bargains they are this offseason. Hendry should not be faulted for signing Bradley regardless of what Dunn or Abreu signed for.

 

The Miles signing is bad because it's a 2-year deal for Aaron Freaking Miles, not because of the other bargains to be had.

 

I don't really think anybody is faulting him for signing Bradley in this thread. I noyl brought him up because that guy brought up outfielders and how they is no market for them. I'm talking about Miles being a bad signing.

which, again, has nothing to do with bobby abreu. bitching about miles in a discussion about abreu is pointless.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

People on this board consistently say that starting pitchers are more valuable than relief pitchers.

 

Not me. When you factor in leverage, there's usually at least one bullpen spot, sometimes two, that are just as important as a starting spot.

 

But on the flip side, I think teams should always carry some worthless AAA vet on the back end of the bullpen and flog his arm till it falls off.