ESPN: Cedeno & Olson Traded for Heilman (P. 4)

[cubsfan26]

I understand, but what I'm trying to say is this team is still very good and give some of these moves a chance. This offseason could either be really bad or really good. Thats why I call them questionable moves, but many already assume these moves are bad. But nobody is willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, when many simliar questionable moves worked out very well for us the last two years. If Mark DeRosa is still on the roster, are people all of the sudden happy with the offseason? Is that the one move that made this a horrible offseason? Because I recall most being happy with going after Bradley, most wanted more AB's for Fontenot, most wanted Marquis traded, and most figured Wood might go. Most also knew we probably weren't gonna get alot for Pie or Cedeno either with them being out of options. So I really don't know what Hendry could have done that would have changed the out come of the offseason so much besides not trade DeRosa.

[17 Seconds]

So I really don't know what Hendry could have done that would have changed the out come of the offseason so much besides not trade DeRosa.

 

-Not vastly overpay for a guy who can't stay on the field.

-Not overpay for Aaron Miles.

-Actually get something in return for DeRosa

-Not overpay for Aaron Heilman

-Not overpay for Kevin Gregg

-Not fail to offer Wood arbitration and lose a first round pick

-Not obsess over "getting more left handed" and end up signing a bunch of crappy hitters -because of it

-Not give Ryan Dempster a ridiculous contract

-Not turn a solid bench into an atrocious bench

 

Any of those would have been nice

[cubsfan26]

-Not vastly overpay for a guy who can't stay on the field.

-Not overpay for Aaron Miles.

-Actually get something in return for DeRosa

-Not overpay for Aaron Heilman

-Not overpay for Kevin Gregg

-Not fail to offer Wood arbitration and lose a first round pick

-Not obsess over "getting more left handed" and end up signing a bunch of crappy hitters -because of it

-Not give Ryan Dempster a ridiculous contract

-Not turn a solid bench into an atrocious bench

 

 

ok :roll: Thats all very debateable stuff, especially saying overpaid on some of those guys, when the market would say otherwise. I'm sorry but many of you same people have been saying this same type of crap about Hendry moves the last two years. So I'm willing to bet you're dead wrong about half of the things you just said. You guys always think you're right, without giving the benefit of the doubt to someone who has proven you wrong the last few years. You're already assuming negative results from these guys, by saying we overpaid. Just like you did, with MANY of the previous Hendry moves the last two seasons. Sure you guys were right a few times, but were wrong alot more then right. Maybe I'm different and when I have been wrong about something in the past, I remember it, and am willling to give a GM the benefit of the doubt because of it. I think some just pretend they were never wrong about previous moves, and don't let it effect their opinion on current questionable moves.

Edited January 30, 2009 by cubsfan26

[PrimeTime]

I don't get how some players don't get the chance to prove themselves, every little thing they do gets magnified, gets thrown under the bus, or in Lou's doghouse or gets talked about getting traded basically on the roster except Ryan Theriot..The guy can go in a 0-78 slump and you never hear one negative thing about him from the Cubs organization or from the media even when the guy throws balls into right field and makes some idiotic throws and steals and thinks he's Ozzie Smith...I would take Pie's glove,speed and his Ehhh offense that has the potential to break out anytime over Theriots crappy D and his bat anyday. I know theyre different positions but I just think the whole Cubs staff and Organization treat this guy like he's Jeter. I would rather have Cedeno or anyone out there daily at SS over him. He's nothing more than a backup 2nd baseman..Our middle infield sucks and I don't get why they don't ever mention messing with the SS position or tossing him in a trade, I'm sure Hendry could talk his godson up and get something for him in a package and and throw in any SS to do what he's doin if not better. I'm just venting from a crappy offseason and how every player get's negativity from the coaches and media,traded, or not givin a chance but this guy since he's untouchable it seems. If your a white, gritty ,mediocre infielder, I guess your a icon in the Cubs Organization.

[17 Seconds]

-Not vastly overpay for a guy who can't stay on the field.

-Not overpay for Aaron Miles.

-Actually get something in return for DeRosa

-Not overpay for Aaron Heilman

-Not overpay for Kevin Gregg

-Not fail to offer Wood arbitration and lose a first round pick

-Not obsess over "getting more left handed" and end up signing a bunch of crappy hitters -because of it

-Not give Ryan Dempster a ridiculous contract

-Not turn a solid bench into an atrocious bench

 

 

ok :roll: Thats all very debateable stuff, especially saying overpaid on some of those guys, when the market would say otherwise. I'm sorry but many of you same people been saying this same type of crap about Hendry moves the last two years. So I'm willing to bet you're dead wrong about half of the things you just said. You guys always think you're right, without giving the benefit of the doubt to someone who has proven you wrong the last few years. You're already assuming negative results from these guys, by saying we overpaid. Just like you did, with MANY of the previous Hendry moves the last two seasons. Sure you guys were right a few times, but were wrong alot more then right.

 

Was there really a need for the eye roll? You say it's all debatable, so debate it. I don't see you debating any of that stuff, you're just criticizing instead.

 

The market says otherwise? Really? Look at all what outfielders are getting this year and then tell me we didn'toverpay for Bradley. Abreu and Dunn are comparable, if not better, and they're likely going to settle for one year deals. Burrell got 2/16.

 

Don't act like I'm just criticizing Hendry because he's Hendry. He's done a lot of good things over the past couple seasons and was starting to change my opinion on him, but come on. Nothing I just listed was untrue. You're talking as though I'm looking for ways to criticize Hendry, when I think the opposite is going on. I think you're looking for ways to defend him at all costs and determined to give him a free pass.

[TruffleShuffle]

I don't get how some players don't get the chance to prove themselves, every little thing they do gets magnified, gets thrown under the bus, or in Lou's doghouse or gets talked about getting traded basically on the roster except Ryan Theriot..The guy can go in a 0-78 slump and you never hear one negative thing about him from the Cubs organization or from the media even when the guy throws balls into right field and makes some idiotic throws and steals and thinks he's Ozzie Smith...I would take Pie's glove,speed and his Ehhh offense that has the potential to break out anytime over Theriots crappy D and his bat anyday. I know theyre different positions but I just think the whole Cubs staff and Organization treat this guy like he's Jeter. I would rather have Cedeno or anyone out there daily at SS over him. He's nothing more than a backup 2nd baseman..Our middle infield sucks and I don't get why they don't ever mention messing with the SS position or tossing him in a trade, I'm sure Hendry could talk his godson up and get something for him in a package and and throw in any SS to do what he's doin if not better. I'm just venting from a crappy offseason and how every player get's negativity from the coaches and media,traded, or not givin a chance but this guy since he's untouchable it seems. If your a white, gritty ,mediocre infielder, I guess your a icon in the Cubs Organization.

 

it's more because he's an adequate (read: not nearly as bad as you think he is) cheap option on a team that has a lot of high-priced players, and because there are no other good options at that position. also, ronny cedeno still sucks.

[cubsfan26]

The market says otherwise? Really? Look at all what outfielders are getting this year and then tell me we didn'toverpay for Bradley. Abreu and Dunn are comparable, if not better, and they're likely going to settle for one year deals. Burrell got 2/16.

 

What did Raul Ibanez get? From what I heard the Rays and other teams were offering Bradley 2y at 18-20m. So I don't how guarantee Bradley 2y at 20m, and giving him a extra year at 10m if healthy is overpaying. Burrell/Dunn are both LF/DH, and were both horrible fits for this team. How many runs they would let in would offset the possible offense advantage over Bradley. As for Abreu he sucks in RF, and is in the decline. Plus he was asking for 3y at 48m, a few months ago. I still think Bradley has the most upside of those hitters playing half his games in Wrigley now.

 

Don't act like I'm just criticizing Hendry because he's Hendry. He's done a lot of good things over the past couple seasons and was starting to change my opinion on him, but come on. Nothing I just listed was untrue. You're talking as though I'm looking for ways to criticize Hendry, when I think the opposite is going on. I think you're looking for ways to defend him at all costs and determined to give him a free pass.

 

If it was 2007, after he made alot of bad decisions in 05-06, I can understand this stuff. But nobody is willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on many of these moves. I recall at one time people were saying we overpaid for Ted Lilly, Mark DeRosa and Jason Marquis was a horrible contract. They were pissed off when they heard Dempster would get a shot in the rotation, and Theriot would be our SS again in 08. Some didn't even like that Kerry Wood was brought back in 08. Even last year people were upset that we traded Jacque Jones last year for nothing. Same thing goes with picking up Johnson/Edmonds for nothing. The only moves that I remember Hendry making that actually got mostly postive feedback recently is the Harden trade and Fukudome signing. I'm not saying Hendry is the perfect GM, and I felt he made some very poor moves in 05-06 seasons. But after what he's done the last two years, I feel he deserves the benefit of the doubt alot more then he gets.

Edited January 30, 2009 by cubsfan26

[Backtobanks]

So I really don't know what Hendry could have done that would have changed the out come of the offseason so much besides not trade DeRosa.

 

-Not vastly overpay for a guy who can't stay on the field.

-Not overpay for Aaron Miles.

-Actually get something in return for DeRosa

-Not overpay for Aaron Heilman

-Not overpay for Kevin Gregg

-Not fail to offer Wood arbitration and lose a first round pick

-Not obsess over "getting more left handed" and end up signing a bunch of crappy hitters -because of it

-Not give Ryan Dempster a ridiculous contract

-Not turn a solid bench into an atrocious bench

 

Any of those would have been nice

 

If Wood accepted arbitration then Hendry would have vastly overpaid for a player who can't stay on the field. (#1 and #6)

Aaron Miles was offered $600 K less by the Cards, so apparently he was at market value.

Dempster was given a contract based on a great season (just like many other FA pitchers) and would have been signed by another team thus making a big hole in the rotation.

Overpaying for Gregg? That's yet to be seen.

Overpaying for Heilman? Reyes and Santana for Heilman is overpaying, Cedeno and Olson is questionable because Cedeno and Olson were of no use to the Cubs in 2009.

The DeRosa deal got quantity over quality (granted), but I still think it added the depth to go after Peavy (we'll see).

As for becoming more left-handed, he signed 2 switch hitters to replace a righty and a lefty. Oops, I forgot the gigantic move coming - signing an old lefty backup catcher for an old righty backup catcher.

Finally, I will agree that the new bench sucks.

[cubsfan26]

Finally, I will agree that the new bench sucks.

 

I seen that a few times but I don't get how the bench is all that worse then last year.

 

08

Ward

Johnson

Blanco-

Fontenot-

Cedeno-

 

09

Johnson

Miles

Bako

Gathright

Hoffpauir/ F/A

 

 

Fontenot/Hoffpauir or F/A- This is the one spot I have a concern about. But If Hoffpauir could do what he did last year for another 150 AB's we will be fine. This bench spots could get alot less AB's next year though. I personally don't think the bench was all that good last year. But I don't think we went from a good bench to a horrible bench with these moves.

 

 

The DeRosa deal got quantity over quality (granted), but I still think it added the depth to go after Peavy (we'll see).

 

The DeRosa trade is really the only move I'm kinda questioning right now. I'm not really questioning the talent we got in return, because I think thats probably the best we could get. The only way that move makes sense is because they wanted Fontenot to get alot more AB's. So Hendry took a risk here deciding to go with Fontenot over DeRosa. If Fontenot hits like he did in the minors, or so far in the majors it will look like a good trade. Especially if one of those three prospects turn into something. But by doing this he is also counting on Hoffpauir or a free agent to replace DeRosa production when having to play in the outfield. This move could very easily work out well for us, but in a win now situation I question it a bit. The rest of the moves so far this offseason, I actually am ok with. Even though I'm a little worried about Ceda potential, but Hendry usually does a pretty good job on knowing what prospects to trade and what ones not to trade. Well of course that horrible Juan Pierre trade.

[SouthSideRyan]

Finally, I will agree that the new bench sucks.

 

I seen that a few times but I don't get how the bench is all that worse then last year.

 

08

Ward

Johnson

Blanco-

Fontenot-

Cedeno-

 

09

Johnson

Miles

Bako

Gathright

Hoffpauir/ F/A

 

 

Fontenot/Hoffpauir or F/A- This is the one spot I have a concern about. But If Hoffpauir could do what he did last year for another 150 AB's we will be fine. This bench spots could get alot less AB's next year though. I personally don't think the bench was all that good last year. But I don't think we went from a good bench to a horrible bench with these moves.

 

Micah Hoffpauir will be in AAA. Every spot on the bench will be downgraded except for Reed Johnson. That bench is brutal.

[cubsfan26]

Micah Hoffpauir will be in AAA. Every spot on the bench will be downgraded except for Reed Johnson. That bench is brutal.

 

How do you figure? Who plays 1b? Were's the power off the bench? Thats not gonna happen, unless we add someone else. Then we can make a judgement on the bench.

[17 Seconds]

So I really don't know what Hendry could have done that would have changed the out come of the offseason so much besides not trade DeRosa.

 

-Not vastly overpay for a guy who can't stay on the field.

-Not overpay for Aaron Miles.

-Actually get something in return for DeRosa

-Not overpay for Aaron Heilman

-Not overpay for Kevin Gregg

-Not fail to offer Wood arbitration and lose a first round pick

-Not obsess over "getting more left handed" and end up signing a bunch of crappy hitters -because of it

-Not give Ryan Dempster a ridiculous contract

-Not turn a solid bench into an atrocious bench

 

Any of those would have been nice

 

If Wood accepted arbitration then Hendry would have vastly overpaid for a player who can't stay on the field. (#1 and #6)

 

First of all, Wood mostly stayed on the field last season. Bradley didn't even have to play the field last year and he still couldn't stay healthy. Plus. even if Wood did accept arbitration, we wouldn't have been overpaying for him.

 

As for the DeRosa thing, are we still pretending that trade was made for Peavy? Why? Even if it was, that doesn't change the fact that he got a poor package.

[SouthSideRyan]

Micah Hoffpauir will be in AAA. Every spot on the bench will be downgraded except for Reed Johnson. That bench is brutal.

 

How do you figure? Who plays 1b? Were's the power off the bench? Thats not gonna happen, unless we add someone else. Then we can make a judgement on the bench.

 

BECAUSE LOU PINIELLA WON'T GO WITH ONE BACKUP IF

[danonwaveland]

They are still probably the best team in their division, although I think they've taken a step back, so far, and haven't positioned themselves any better for the future. If anything, they've limited their longterm options.

 

What he said.

____________________________________________________________________

Sandberg>Mazeroski>Morgan

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Micah Hoffpauir will be in AAA. Every spot on the bench will be downgraded except for Reed Johnson. That bench is brutal.

 

Miles stands a very good chance of being as good as 2008 Cedeno. Johnson is Johnson, although I guess he's projected to be a touch worse at the plate this year. We don't know who's replacing Ward, but he wasn't any good last year(Miles is projected to be about as valuable offensively). Bako and Gathright are pretty clear downgrades from Blanco and Fontenot. I like Ping's idea of seeing if Crede would join the bench. That'd be an improvement on Ward, although we wouldn't have much from the left side. Matt Craig would be pop from both sides, but he's not allowed start the season anywhere but Tennessee.

[cubsfan26]

Micah Hoffpauir will be in AAA. Every spot on the bench will be downgraded except for Reed Johnson. That bench is brutal.

 

How do you figure? Who plays 1b? Were's the power off the bench? Thats not gonna happen, unless we add someone else. Then we can make a judgement on the bench.

 

BECAUSE LOU PINIELLA WON'T GO WITH ONE BACKUP IF

 

 

Lou Piniella wouldn't go without a back up 1b either. Especially when he has commented about giving Lee a little more rest. Hoffpauir is either on the roster, or we will bring someone else in. Lou Piniella wouldn't have a bench with Reed Johnson as the most powerful hitter either. Stop assuming negative things, thats exactly what I'm talking about. Because even if we bring someone else in I expect Hoffpauir to have a chance to win a roster spot still with a big spring. Theriot can play 2b and SS, and Miles can play 2b,SS, and 3rd. Even Piniella mentioned during the Cubs convention that they could use Fontenot at 3rd in spring training. I dunno what Hendry has planned, but as of now the bench isn't as that bad with Hoffpauir on it. If we make another move to bring in a bench player, then I'll make a judgement on the bench.

[SouthSideRyan]

Matt Craig would be pop from both sides, but he's not allowed start the season anywhere but Tennessee.

 

He could always change positions for no apparent reason and go down to Daytona.

[cubsfan26]

Miles stands a very good chance of being as good as 2008 Cedeno. Johnson is Johnson, although I guess he's projected to be a touch worse at the plate this year. We don't know who's replacing Ward, but he wasn't any good last year(Miles is projected to be about as valuable offensively). Bako and Gathright are pretty clear downgrades from Blanco and Fontenot

 

 

I think Miles will be better then Cedeno, and I do think Johnson has a chance to be as good to. He had a big second half, and his back might have been 100 percent in the first half. But the rest of the bench could appear better depending on how you line it up. If you compare Fontenot to Hoffpauir and Gathright to Ward it doesn't look quite as bad. Even though Gathright OPS still probably won't be as high as Ward was last year, his defense and speed will help. I also think the Bako/Blanco stuff is a little debateabe. Blanco was much better from 05-07, but if you look at Bako numbers after 120 AB's(what Blanco got last year), Bako has the high OBP and OPS. Overall the back up catcher spot is a very minor downgrade if anything.

[Wrigley Rat]

Craig became a free agent at the end of the 2008 season [15]. While Craig has indicated that he'd like to stay with the Cubs, he has spent what has been described as "an eternity in the minors" as part of the Cubs franchise over the last six years despite strong stats, including a career batting average over .280, and outperforming other players [16][4]. Scouts and sports commentators have noted Craig's versatility as a fielder, playing first base, third base and occasionally shortstop as well as his consistent offensive performance making Craig likely to be signed by another club[14]. Despite being described as the headliner of the Cubs free agents, it is unlikely that the Cubs will resign Craig due to their depth at his positions [4].

 

Sorry guys, but Matt Craig is a minor league free agent and probably won't return to the Cubs! :(

[SouthSideRyan]

Craig became a free agent at the end of the 2008 season [15]. While Craig has indicated that he'd like to stay with the Cubs, he has spent what has been described as "an eternity in the minors" as part of the Cubs franchise over the last six years despite strong stats, including a career batting average over .280, and outperforming other players [16][4]. Scouts and sports commentators have noted Craig's versatility as a fielder, playing first base, third base and occasionally shortstop as well as his consistent offensive performance making Craig likely to be signed by another club[14]. Despite being described as the headliner of the Cubs free agents, it is unlikely that the Cubs will resign Craig due to their depth at his positions [4].

 

Sorry guys, but Matt Craig is a minor league free agent and probably won't return to the Cubs! :(

 

Haha, I love that through it all Craig still wants to come back, and still the Cubs don't even want him. Have to make space for Josh Lansford, sorry Matt.

[cubbyvirus00]

what is with Hendry's sick and twisted man-love for MIF and relievers?

[Illini Iceman]

what is with Hendry's sick and twisted man-love for MIF and relievers?

 

I know this is fun to say and all but at this point he only has 3 MIF on the 40 man roster and obviously in order to actually field a team the minimum you need is 2.

[Hall7810]

Craig signed w/the Marlins in Dec.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Craig signed w/the Marlins in Dec.

 

Somehow I suspect he'll still end up in Tennessee.

[Post Count Padder]

http://blog.stats.com/2009/01/whiff_profile_aaron_heilman.html

 

A piece on Heilman and his pitches. According to this, they are pretty good and he has a history of pitching out of the zone rather than attacking hitters. They also predict his 09 will be like his better years.