ESPN: Cedeno & Olson Traded for Heilman (P. 4)

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Quantity of prospects is overrated in trades. Baseball players the far left of a bell curve, and the worse they get the more plentiful they are. I'll take one good prospect over 5 iffy ones.

[17 Seconds]

I'm not crazy about this trade either unless it eventually leads to something better, but many of you on this board were not all that enamored with Olson and his $4mil+ salary to begin with, nor with the possibility that he would replace Wood as the closer. So now he and his hefty salary are gone. I guess the bigger question is who is going to close? Marmol??

 

Huh? I think you're mixing up Olson with Gregg

[Cubswin11]

Just trying to stay positive here, so bear with me. What if Hendry no longer sees Peavy as an option, and is looking at a Sheets signing? He would need to clear roster space, and might want a guy like Heilman that is serviceable in the bullpen or as a starter with the added injury risk a Sheets type would bring, or maybe even a Curt Schilling that won't be ready until later in the season?

I would like to sign Sheets assuming he checks out medically, we have Guzman/Marshall/Gaudin/Heilman to spot start for injuries and he should come considerably cheaper than Peavy, no prospects and lower contract years/money. Sheets is every bit as good as Peavy, the problem is he doesn't stay healthy for a full season.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not crazy about this trade either unless it eventually leads to something better, but many of you on this board were not all that enamored with Olson and his $4mil+ salary to begin with, nor with the possibility that he would replace Wood as the closer. So now he and his hefty salary are gone. I guess the bigger question is who is going to close? Marmol??

 

wrong guy

[cubbinalltheway]

What valuable commodities? Just because some Cubs fans think these guys have value doesn't mean they do.

 

Heilman is a dime a dozen reliever who does nothing particularly well.

yeah, thats not true. its already been shown that he's very effective against right handed hitters.

 

Didn't you just call him a "terrible swingman"?

i dont know, did i? probably just the emotional reaction to learning of a bad trade if so, rather than the rational reaction.

[cubsfan26]

It seems to me the goal of any transaction, or any series of transactions, is to get better now, or prepare to get better in the future. I don't believe the Cubs have improved one bit from where they were last year, and they may have actually hurt the future even more.

 

 

It still depends on what else they do, Heilman makes their bullpen better. I would say right now that Gaudin, Guzman, Vizcaino, Wuertz, Heilman, Gregg and Marmol is a better pen then we had last year. Trading one of those relievers seems likely, and we still have money and prospects to get another SP. Adding a SP better then Marquis, having a better bullpen, and swapping DeRosa/Edmonds for Bradley/Fontenot or Miles makes me still believe that this team is better. Everyone just has their heart set on Peavy, but I'll really take any pitcher on a one year deal better then Marquis and be happy.

[Outshined_One]

Cedeno for Heilman would have been an okay trade.

Olson for Heilman would have been a bleh trade, but it wouldn't have been terrible.

 

 

Ronny Cedeno has very little value, the Cubs would be lucky to get a mediocre minor league reliever for him. I knew from day one that the Cubs weren't gonna get Cedeno for Heilman straight up. Olson obviously is the guy with the value in this trade, but I don't think he has a ton of value either. People are just pissed off because they thought Olson was part of a Peavy deal. But nobody ever said we had to have Olson to get Peavy.

 

Heilman's going to be 30 years old next season and saw his production fall off a cliff last year thanks to a loss of control, which prompted speculation about his health. He hasn't started a game in the majors since 2005. I don't think he is better than Olson, quite frankly. That's the part of this deal that doesn't make much sense to me.

[SCCubbieFAN]

I'm not crazy about this trade either unless it eventually leads to something better, but many of you on this board were not all that enamored with Olson and his $4mil+ salary to begin with, nor with the possibility that he would replace Wood as the closer. So now he and his hefty salary are gone. I guess the bigger question is who is going to close? Marmol??

 

Huh? I think you're mixing up Olson with Gregg

 

you're right. my bad :oops:

 

but Olson has not had a stellar career with the exception of his k/bb ratio.

Edited January 28, 2009 by SCCubbieFAN

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I would say right now that Gaudin, Guzman, Vizcaino, Wuertz, Heilman, Gregg and Marmol is a better pen then we had last year.

 

Not even remotely close to being true.

 

Even if it were close in raw numbers (and it isn't), losing Wood in high-leverage situations (or rather, having Marmol move into his spot and losing him in high-leverage situations), makes it much, much worse.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Cedeno for Heilman would have been an okay trade.

Olson for Heilman would have been a bleh trade, but it wouldn't have been terrible.

 

 

Ronny Cedeno has very little value, the Cubs would be lucky to get a mediocre minor league reliever for him. I knew from day one that the Cubs weren't gonna get Cedeno for Heilman straight up. Olson obviously is the guy with the value in this trade, but I don't think he has a ton of value either. People are just pissed off because they thought Olson was part of a Peavy deal. But nobody ever said we had to have Olson to get Peavy.

 

Heilman's going to be 30 years old next season and saw his production fall off a cliff last year thanks to a loss of control, which prompted speculation about his health. He hasn't started a game in the majors since 2005. I don't think he is better than Olson, quite frankly. That's the part of this deal that doesn't make much sense to me.

 

Heilman pretty much had the same problem Rich Hill had last year, only wasnt sent down immediatly. We all know how tolerant Lou is of pitchers with control issues.

[PrimeTime]

Cubs.com release..They're trying to talk him up for the non-knowledgeable Cub fans like it's a great trade..

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090128&content_id=3778476&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

[17 Seconds]

Cedeno for Heilman would have been an okay trade.

Olson for Heilman would have been a bleh trade, but it wouldn't have been terrible.

 

 

Ronny Cedeno has very little value, the Cubs would be lucky to get a mediocre minor league reliever for him. I knew from day one that the Cubs weren't gonna get Cedeno for Heilman straight up. Olson obviously is the guy with the value in this trade, but I don't think he has a ton of value either. People are just pissed off because they thought Olson was part of a Peavy deal. But nobody ever said we had to have Olson to get Peavy.

 

Not true. People are pissed because this is a bad trade and a waste of resources.

[Mephistopheles]

Cubs.com release..They're trying to talk him up for the non-knowledgeable Cub fans like it's a great trade..

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090128&content_id=3778476&vkey=news_chc&fext=.jsp&c_id=chc

 

I do think it's a good trade. I support this move 100%.

[17 Seconds]

It seems to me the goal of any transaction, or any series of transactions, is to get better now, or prepare to get better in the future. I don't believe the Cubs have improved one bit from where they were last year, and they may have actually hurt the future even more.

 

 

It still depends on what else they do, Heilman makes their bullpen better. I would say right now that Gaudin, Guzman, Vizcaino, Wuertz, Heilman, Gregg and Marmol is a better pen then we had last year. Trading one of those relievers seems likely, and we still have money and prospects to get another SP. Adding a SP better then Marquis, having a better bullpen, and swapping DeRosa/Edmonds for Bradley/Fontenot or Miles makes me still believe that this team is better. Everyone just has their heart set on Peavy, but I'll really take any pitcher on a one year deal better then Marquis and be happy.

 

They didn't replace DeRosa with Fontenot. Fontenot was already on the team.

 

And I don't really see how you can say this team is better, especially considering all the flukey production we were going to lose even if we kept the same team

[Little Slide Rooter]

I would say right now that Gaudin, Guzman, Vizcaino, Wuertz, Heilman, Gregg and Marmol is a better pen then we had last year.

 

Not even remotely close to being true.

 

Even if it were close in raw numbers (and it isn't), losing Wood in high-leverage situations (or rather, having Marmol move into his spot and losing him in high-leverage situations), makes it much, much worse.

 

Im guessing Heilman gets the 5th rotation spot and Marshall is in the pen, or else were sans lefty.

 

Its really not a bad looking pen at all, especially if Guzman can stay healthy, and Gaudin and Wuertz can both do what they're capable of. The question is, is Heilman and upgrade, downgrade, or a wash in relation to Marquis?

[jersey cubs fan]

It seems to me the goal of any transaction, or any series of transactions, is to get better now, or prepare to get better in the future. I don't believe the Cubs have improved one bit from where they were last year, and they may have actually hurt the future even more.

 

 

It still depends on what else they do,

 

Not really. We can only judge what we've seen done. And throughout his tenure with the Cubs we've seen Hendry repeatedly go hard after guys he loves, regardless of their value, and many of the times it means chasing mediocrity. He continues to be a terribly inefficient user of resources, which are vast, and the only reason this team can contend is the fact that they can outspend. This scares the hell out of me if they ever go flat on payroll. GMs should be able to improve their team without having to spend more and keep getting older.

[SouthSideRyan]

Can anybody tell me the difference between what we could expect #s wise(I mean runs allowed, not peripherals) between Vizcaino, Gaudin, Heilman, and Wuertz?

 

This is exactly what we needed a 6th-7th righty bullpen arm.

[Backtobanks]

Let's all relax until the dust settles. If anyone thinks Hendry is through trading, they aren't paying attention. I'm sure that if Hendry trades for Peavy without including Marshall or Vitters some of you will jump all over him for giving up 5 prospects.

 

I don't see how Hendry has earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt this offseason. Also, whether ot nor he makes other moves doesn't really excuse some of the other dumb things he's done. Getting as little as he did for DeRosa is basd. Giving Miles the contract he did is bad. Giving Bradley what he didis bad. Trading Cedeno and Olson for Heilman is bad. Those are bad moves, regardless of what follows them.

 

What he got for DeRosa was pitching prospects which presumably will lead to Peavy. Who knows how the contracts to Miles and Bradley will work out? Waiting for their prices to go down might have resulted in them signing with another team and then posters would jump all over Hendry for not signing them. On the surface, the Cedeno + Olsen for Heilman deal doesn't look great, but Olson's strongest traits were that he had an option left and it was rumored that the Padres wanted him in a Peavy deal. He has been a terrible major league pitcher. I'm not defending any of the moves Hendry has made, but none of us are fully aware of what's happening financially with the Cubs and other clubs and what kinds of discussions are going on with other GMs. That's why I said we need to wait and see what the final roster looks like.

[17 Seconds]

Can anybody tell me the difference between what we could expect #s wise(I mean runs allowed, not peripherals) between Vizcaino, Gaudin, Heilman, and Wuertz?

 

This is exactly what we needed a 6th-7th righty bullpen arm.

 

You know that runs allowed doesn't tell the whole story with relievers

[jersey cubs fan]

What he got for DeRosa was pitching prospects which presumably will lead to Peavy.

 

How will those prospects presumably lead to Peavy? As much Peavy talk as we've seen, absolutely nothing has indicated that those are the guys they wanted in order to deal Peavy.

[17 Seconds]

Let's all relax until the dust settles. If anyone thinks Hendry is through trading, they aren't paying attention. I'm sure that if Hendry trades for Peavy without including Marshall or Vitters some of you will jump all over him for giving up 5 prospects.

 

I don't see how Hendry has earned the right to be given the benefit of the doubt this offseason. Also, whether ot nor he makes other moves doesn't really excuse some of the other dumb things he's done. Getting as little as he did for DeRosa is basd. Giving Miles the contract he did is bad. Giving Bradley what he didis bad. Trading Cedeno and Olson for Heilman is bad. Those are bad moves, regardless of what follows them.

 

What he got for DeRosa was pitching prospects which presumably will lead to Peavy. Who knows how the contracts to Miles and Bradley will work out? Waiting for their prices to go down might have resulted in them signing with another team and then posters would jump all over Hendry for not signing them. On the surface, the Cedeno + Olsen for Heilman deal doesn't look great, but Olson's strongest traits were that he had an option left and it was rumored that the Padres wanted him in a Peavy deal. He has been a terrible major league pitcher. I'm not defending any of the moves Hendry has made, but none of us are fully aware of what's happening financially with the Cubs and other clubs and what kinds of discussions are going on with other GMs. That's why I said we need to wait and see what the final roster looks like.

 

Why are you presuming the guys they got from Cleveland are going in a Peavy trade?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

For 2009, who is a better pitcher, Heilman or Olson? I'm saying Heilman.

[PrimeTime]

And the next signings will be Bako and Juan Uribe...Is all this seriously happening?

[cubsfan26]

I don't think he is better than Olson, quite frankly. That's the part of this deal that doesn't make much sense to me

 

 

Heilman stuff is better then Olson, Heilman is older and a free agent at the end of the year. But I'm not concerned about his pitching last season I just think it was a bad year. The funny thing about this trade is this move actually makes us better for 09. Heilman will most likely give the Cubs more then Cedeno or Olson would have next year. Cedeno had very little value, and Olson had some but not alot. Neither guy were in the long term plans for the Cubs. Everyone is just pissed at this move, because they don't think we can get Peavy now.

 

 

The trade itself isn't really as horrible as people are making it out to be, and it improved the club. Many here have been overrating Cedeno value for a while, and Olson value wasn't good enough alone to get a good player. I would have rather have kept Olson, and see if he could have pitched well in the minors and had any success in the majors to increase his value. But I don't think this trade puts us out of the Peavy deal at all. I don't see how a potential 3-4 starter(at best), who has been awful in the majors would do that. Gaudin value is probably higher or pretty equal to what Olson has.

[17 Seconds]

I'm not crazy about this trade either unless it eventually leads to something better, but many of you on this board were not all that enamored with Olson and his $4mil+ salary to begin with, nor with the possibility that he would replace Wood as the closer. So now he and his hefty salary are gone. I guess the bigger question is who is going to close? Marmol??

 

Huh? I think you're mixing up Olson with Gregg

 

you're right. my bad :oops:

 

but Olson has not had a stellar career with the exception of his k/bb ratio.

 

minor league career, or major league career?