Dunn is awesome...No he's not...Yes he is!!!

[scarey]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Don't even count defense, which had a better offensive year? And if you have any justification, could you please share.

[UK1679666180]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Morneau is an above avg. defender at 1B, which is an underrated defensive position, IMO.

 

It's odd to try and use one of the best hitters in the AL to try and show how limited the value is of Dunn.

 

I can't believe how bad of a hitter Morneau is.... Who's better him or Pujols?

 

I would take Morneau for what it's worth, if Dunn wasn't so passive, I'd probably take Dunn if only based on offense b/c they are similar and a little more aggressive Dunn would make up for that.

Edited December 16, 2008 by UK

[17 Seconds]

theriot must be an elite offensive player since home runs aren't production

 

scarey is cracking me up right now. home runs aren't production, but rbis are. epic

 

 

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau?

 

I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau?

 

Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line

Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line

 

Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year.

 

Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing.

[scarey]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Morneau is an above avg. defender at 1B, which is an underrated defensive position, IMO.

 

It's odd to try and use one of the best hitters in the AL to try and show how limited the value is of Dunn.

 

I can't believe how bad of a hitter Morneau is.... Who's better him or Pujols?

 

Please stop avoiding the question. I didn't ask you to compare the two for value. You guys are claiming that OBP and HRs are without a doubt under every circumstance the best possible stats to go by. I just showed you a guy, Morneau, that had a worse OBP and less HRs then Dunn. All I'm asking for is your judgment on who had a better offensive year. Is that a reason to be a wise guy about it?

[CP_414]

I don't understand where this thread has gone. Adam Dunn isn't as good as Justin Morneau, so Dunn isn't very good?

 

What?

 

Dunn is a very productive hitter. How is that debatable? If RBI's are so important, you might want to check, but he gets 100 a year. If you value HR's he hits 40 a year. If you value OBP he is around .380 a year. If you value OPS he is over .900. If you value OPS+ he is around 130. Runs Created per 25 about 7.3 a game.

 

What does Morneau have to do with anything? Is he available? Dunn has his flaws (read: Defense), but hitting isn't one of them.

[scarey]

theriot must be an elite offensive player since home runs aren't production

 

scarey is cracking me up right now. home runs aren't production, but rbis are. epic

 

 

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau?

 

I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau?

 

Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line

Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line

 

Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year.

 

Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing.

 

What makes him better?

[imb]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Don't even count defense, which had a better offensive year? And if you have any justification, could you please share.

 

I didn't realize just how good of a year Morneau had last year. Without getting too deep into his stats, his OPS+ was higher

 

still seems an odd way to prove a point about adam dunn

[scarey]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Don't even count defense, which had a better offensive year? And if you have any justification, could you please share.

 

I didn't realize just how good of a year Morneau had last year. Without getting too deep into his stats, his OPS+ was higher

 

still seems an odd way to prove a point about adam dunn

 

That's just it. It's not a point about Adam Dunn. It' s a point that OBP and HRs aren't conclusive like you guys seem to make a case for.

[samhainn77]

theriot must be an elite offensive player since home runs aren't production

 

scarey is cracking me up right now. home runs aren't production, but rbis are. epic

 

 

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau?

 

I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau?

 

Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line

Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line

 

Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year.

 

Better Player? Morneau More Productive at the plate? Morneau with an OPS+ of 137 but not by as much as I'm sure you think. Now ask me which one I would try to sign as a free agent assuming they were to both unsigned this year.

[scarey]

Now ask me which one I would try to sign as a free agent assuming they were to both unsigned this year.

 

Now you're just being silly :rotfl:

[CP_414]

Now ask me which one I would try to sign as a free agent assuming they were to both unsigned this year.

 

Now you're just being silly :rotfl:

 

Well since we have DLee locked up for 2 years and I would assume Morneau will make a run at Tex money, a case could easily be made for Dunn.

[imb]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Don't even count defense, which had a better offensive year? And if you have any justification, could you please share.

 

I didn't realize just how good of a year Morneau had last year. Without getting too deep into his stats, his OPS+ was higher

 

still seems an odd way to prove a point about adam dunn

 

That's just it. It's not a point about Adam Dunn. It' s a point that OBP and HRs aren't conclusive like you guys seem to make a case for.

 

Right, but a large portion of it is about OBP and SLG, two areas Dunn excels at. Is your point supposed to be that Dunn isn't a productive hitter? because i promise you that is very wrong.

[samhainn77]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Morneau is an above avg. defender at 1B, which is an underrated defensive position, IMO.

 

It's odd to try and use one of the best hitters in the AL to try and show how limited the value is of Dunn.

 

I can't believe how bad of a hitter Morneau is.... Who's better him or Pujols?

 

Please stop avoiding the question. I didn't ask you to compare the two for value. You guys are claiming that OBP and HRs are without a doubt under every circumstance the best possible stats to go by. I just showed you a guy, Morneau, that had a worse OBP and less HRs then Dunn. All I'm asking for is your judgment on who had a better offensive year. Is that a reason to be a wise guy about it?

 

Who on earth claimed OBP and HRs are the best possible stats to go by? Do you know how OPS is calculated? HRs are only part of SLG.

[inari]

I'm so confused as to where this Morneau/Dunn thing is going. They're both really hood hitters, though in different ways. The statlines are similar, but I'd say Morneau's probably a bit better since he hasn't gotten to play in GAB for so many of his home games. But I don't see how anything regarding Justin Morneau proves Adam Dunn is not an awesome hitter. I'd be happy to have either one on my team.

[17 Seconds]

It gives them an opportunity for a bloop hit, an erratic ground ball that finds a hole, or every once in a while an infield hit or error. I'm not saying any player should count on getting on base that way, but I know for sure it gives you a tremendously better chance than making an out at the plate and that this approach has a significant effect on a players results.

 

 

I don't understand how putting the ball in play is only helpful in determining how good a player might end up and cannot help a player like Dunn.

 

Your logic here makes no sense. Dunn has provne year after year that he's going to put up about the same, solid, numbers. What difference does it make how he gets them? The only way your "contact produces bloops and errors" argument hold water is if you're saying that Dunn's strikeout will eliminate that and he won't be as productive. This is irrelevant becuase Dunn has provne year after year after year that he's going to put up the same numbers. The fact that he doesn't make contact and doesn't benefit from putting the ball in play on a consisten basis always shows in his stats, which are still good. We've established that he doesn't need that to be productive. Do you really not understand what I'm saying? You're acting as though a .300/.400/.500 line that is a result of bloops and soft hits is better than a .300/.400/.500 that isn't. Your theory is only useful for projecting how a guy might do, not when evaluating an established hitter.

 

I honestly don't care how many home runs the guy hits. I only care about production.

 

I'm sorry, but when you say something like this you can't expect to not lose credilbity and have people take you seriously.

 

As for the RBI argument. Come on. Not only are RBIs an awful way to judge a player, but you're not even being fair about it. It's already been shown that Dunn has had significantly fewer RBI chances due to lineup differences and the fact that Dunn always has much fewer at-bats from walking so much. Morneau gets his RBIs from base hits... Dunn gets his from home runs. That may not look all pretty to you, but ultimately they are the same thing.

 

The main problem with people who hate Dunn is that they form their opinions based on selective memory and the fact that Dunn looks bad by striking out a lot.

[UK1679666180]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Morneau is an above avg. defender at 1B, which is an underrated defensive position, IMO.

 

It's odd to try and use one of the best hitters in the AL to try and show how limited the value is of Dunn.

 

I can't believe how bad of a hitter Morneau is.... Who's better him or Pujols?

 

Please stop avoiding the question. I didn't ask you to compare the two for value. You guys are claiming that OBP and HRs are without a doubt under every circumstance the best possible stats to go by. I just showed you a guy, Morneau, that had a worse OBP and less HRs then Dunn. All I'm asking for is your judgment on who had a better offensive year. Is that a reason to be a wise guy about it?

 

I never said that. I said from the get go, that if you want to knock Dunn down a few pegs using a limited sample of hitting with RISP is a poor way to do it. Why would someone go with just HRs and OBP? There are better stats to use, I wouldn't use those stats only to judge a hitter but I also wouldn't say the Cubs shouldn't sign Dunn b/c he has .225 avg. w/RISP.

 

Personally, using OBP and Hrs is a much better barometer of a hitter than batting avg. with RISP.

 

I don't think I was being a wise guy, I just fail to see the logic in comparing who was better between Morneau and Dunn, which you're not factoring Park Factors, which if Dunn had put those same numbers playing the full year in Minn. he would likely have had the better numbers. While Morneau had better numbers while having the lower OPS it was b/c he hit in a much more difficult park to so in compared to the GABP and Chase like Dunn.

[17 Seconds]

theriot must be an elite offensive player since home runs aren't production

 

scarey is cracking me up right now. home runs aren't production, but rbis are. epic

 

 

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau?

 

I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau?

 

Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line

Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line

 

Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year.

 

Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing.

 

What makes him better?

 

He's just a better hitter. Lots of stats show this. None of them are RBIs. You really need to stop with this RBI stuff.

[CarolinaCubFan]

 

Batting average should never be the metric to determine how valuable someone is in a given situation. Ever.

 

I couldn't possibly disagree with this more. Devaluing BA to the point of nothingness is just plain stupid. But hey, maybe we can just walk our way around the bases all day, that'd be fun.

 

Batting average has its merits, but not on its own. Take this for example:

 

Both Dunn and Justin Morneau have 10 at bats with a runner on third (completely hypothetical). In 5 of those 10, Dunn hits a home run. The other five he strikes out. Morneau, on the other hand, hits a single in 8 of those 10 ABs. The other two he strikes out.

 

In this example, Dunn has a batting average of .500 and Morneau has a BA of .800. Who is more productive solely on that stat? Morneau.

 

Problem is, Dunn actually created 10 runs, whereas Morneau created just 8 - therefore Dunn truly was more productive even with the lower batting average. That's why it's extremely important to not just look at how often a player gets a hit (what batting average shows), but what kind of hits those are (what slugging percentage and OPS show).

 

When somebody can start including all variables in stats, I'll listen.

[17 Seconds]

Actually now that I look at it Morneau isn't really much better than Dunn. He was better than him in 2006 and 2008. Dunn has blown him away in every other year.

[imb]

you can't take park factors out of the equation, scarey

[scarey]

despite being just a first baseman, unless morneau is a butcher in the field, i'll have to go with him by a slim margin

 

Morneau is an above avg. defender at 1B, which is an underrated defensive position, IMO.

 

It's odd to try and use one of the best hitters in the AL to try and show how limited the value is of Dunn.

 

I can't believe how bad of a hitter Morneau is.... Who's better him or Pujols?

 

Please stop avoiding the question. I didn't ask you to compare the two for value. You guys are claiming that OBP and HRs are without a doubt under every circumstance the best possible stats to go by. I just showed you a guy, Morneau, that had a worse OBP and less HRs then Dunn. All I'm asking for is your judgment on who had a better offensive year. Is that a reason to be a wise guy about it?

 

Who on earth claimed OBP and HRs are the best possible stats to go by? Do you know how OPS is calculated? HRs are only part of SLG.

 

Ok, do you want to shift it over to slugging? The only reason I was bringing up HRs was because I made a statement earlier:

 

I honestly don't care how many home runs the guy hits. I only care about production

 

And people were amused by the statement. So I was trying to make the argument that HRs doen't always make the best production... and Morneau proves that. Unless you've decided that Dunn had the better season, then we can continue with the "HRs =/= production" argument.

 

If you concede the point, then I'll move on to slugging (which, btw, Dunn had a better slugging%... do you still think Morneau had the better offensive season?).

 

Look guys, Dunn is a productive player. However, he gets a lot of his production from 1/2 run homers and fails again and again to get runners in when they're in scoring position. All I'm saying is, don't expect him to come through for you in a big situation unless you need a walk (which, I concede, there's many occasions where you need a walk).

 

My main point here is OBP and SLG doesn't always trump everything. If it did, then people would be telling me that Dunn had the better season in 2008... which obviously people here have said otherwise.

[17 Seconds]

to sum up this thread

 

-home runs aren't production

-rbis are

- dunn is the same as soriano

- dunn's production would be more valuable if it consisted of bloops and seeing eye ground balls

- slugging percentage is only comprised of home runs

[samhainn77]

Now ask me which one I would try to sign as a free agent assuming they were to both unsigned this year.

 

Now you're just being silly :rotfl:

 

 

I don't understand why this is silly. My point has been that Dunn is vastly undervalued by GMs and people in general, a point which you kind of proved (thanks!). Morneau had a marginally better offensive year than Dunn last year after you adjust for parks and league. Morneau could easy pursue 8/160 as Tiexiera set the mark...Dunn will be lucky to crack the 3/27 mark.

 

So for less than half the cost, you could get damn near the same production...no brainer. This is why you have people hoping he joins the team. Not because we think HRs are the end all be all...but because not everyone has caught on to the fact that BA, Ks, and RBI are a piss poor way to judge a hitter.

[Vanilla Ice]

You guys are claiming that OBP and HRs are without a doubt under every circumstance the best possible stats to go by.

when was this ever said?

[scarey]

theriot must be an elite offensive player since home runs aren't production

 

scarey is cracking me up right now. home runs aren't production, but rbis are. epic

 

 

While we're on the subject, could you please tell me who you think was a better player in 2008? Adam Dunn or Justin Morneau?

 

I'm not just talking about how important they were for their respective teams. I want to know in a vacuum, who played better last year, Dunn or Morneau?

 

Dunn had 40 HRs, 100 RBI, 79 R and posted a .236/.386/.513 line

Morneau had 23 HRs, 129 RBI, 97 R, and posted a .300/.374/.499 line

 

Please, just tell me who was better and what your justification was? I would love to hear what any of you guys think here and really want to understand your side of it. I don't care that Morneau isn't in the Cubs plans, I simply want to know which you think was better offensively last year.

 

Morneau, and I never said he wasn't. My point is that him being better has absolutely nothing to do with RBIs. Nothing.

 

What makes him better?

 

He's just a better hitter. Lots of stats show this. None of them are RBIs. You really need to stop with this RBI stuff.

 

Show me one stat that shows he's a better hitter. I've actually already shown you one, and I can show you another if you want me to. I just want to know your argument on the topic besides "He's just a better hitter".