Khalil Greene

[OleMissCub]

I remember being told that Greene was the best defensive SS in baseball last offseason.

 

Tulowitzki??

 

If you look at the defensive metrics like FRAR, Tulo in 2007 had one of the best seasons of all time defensively at SS. In fact, only ONCE (1985) did Ozzie Smith have a better year than Tulo's 2007 according to FRAR.

[biittner77]

Perhaps a change of scenary would do him good. Wasn't there talk last year of him wanting to sign with an east coast team which prompted the rumors about his availability?

[Butterscup1679666578]

If you took Sean Penn, and like inflated his nose so it was about double the size, and then gave him Robin Wright Penn's hair, I'm pretty sure you'd get Khalil Greene.

 

http://images.gaslampball.com/images/admin/khalil_ff1.jpg

 

I am not a Nugget!

http://members.fortunecity.com/nowital/owen_hart.jpg

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I remember being told that Greene was the best defensive SS in baseball last offseason.

 

Tulowitzki??

 

If you look at the defensive metrics like FRAR, Tulo in 2007 had one of the best seasons of all time defensively at SS. In fact, only ONCE (1985) did Ozzie Smith have a better year than Tulo's 2007 according to FRAR.

 

 

I know it's the only way to make historical comparisons and such, but FRAR is really bad.

[OleMissCub]

I remember being told that Greene was the best defensive SS in baseball last offseason.

 

Tulowitzki??

 

If you look at the defensive metrics like FRAR, Tulo in 2007 had one of the best seasons of all time defensively at SS. In fact, only ONCE (1985) did Ozzie Smith have a better year than Tulo's 2007 according to FRAR.

 

 

I know it's the only way to make historical comparisons and such, but FRAR is really bad.

 

Perhaps so. Nevertheless, if you use that stat to compare Tulo to his contemporaries in 2007, he destroyed them all.

 

Tulo - 50

J. Wilson - 33

Pena - 33

Reyes - 32

Furcal - 31

Greene - 30

Rollins - 27

Cabrera - 27

Uribe - 25

Vizquel - 24 (highest he ever got in his career was 35)

Theriot - 20

Young - 19

Hardy - 18

Jeter - 18

Renteria - 18

Lugo - 15

Peralta - 13

Betancourt - 11

Crosby - 11

Guillen - 11

Drew - 10

Tejada - 9

Eckstein - 3

H. Ramirez - -2 (yes, that's a negative before the 2)

 

I'd also like to reiterate my stance that Tulo was plainly robbed of the Gold Glove in 2007.

[Sammy Sofa]

This guy blows. Just what I want a power hitting SS who really isn't that much of a power hitter, strikes out all the time, and hits in the low .200s. He can't do anything small ball like move the runners over or anything like that, plus he isn't a good fielder. Why do any of you possibly want this ugly looking jackass? This was like his fourth year in the bigs, and he has only gotten worse. He went from a fan favorite in San Diego to a nobody. I had the pleasure of watching him go 0-4 with 4 K's last year at Petco. He struck out to end the game, and the whole crowd booed him. You can say what you want about Theriot, but at least the guy puts the ball in play. We already have enough strike out victims on this team. (Soriano, DeRosa, Lee, Soto) This guy won't help us at all.

 

Wow.

 

There's so much...

 

I mean...

 

The delusion...

 

Wow.

 

Where to begin?

 

It's just as delusional to think that Greene and his salary are the solution to any of the Cubs problems.

 

Nobody said him and his salary were the "solution" to anything. And nobody else has said anything as ludicrous as the slew of "points" in the post I quoted.

[RynoRules]

I think it was BBB who said it earlier, but what concerns me about Theriot is his ability to repeat last year's BA. His EqA in 08' was .264, just above league avg. That sounds about right in terms of his hitting.

[Banedon]

If you took Sean Penn, and like inflated his nose so it was about double the size, and then gave him Robin Wright Penn's hair, I'm pretty sure you'd get Khalil Greene.

 

http://images.gaslampball.com/images/admin/khalil_ff1.jpg

 

I am not a Nugget!

http://members.fortunecity.com/nowital/owen_hart.jpg

 

Your pic didn't work, but I knew just what you were talking about. How sad is that?

 

http://www.nndb.com/people/130/000065932/owen-hart-sm.jpg

[Clem Fandango]

Man, he's got a schnoz made for Vaudeville.

[wrigley23]

this guy gets on base w/ the same frequency of a little league 9-hole hitter. No thanks.

[SweetZombieJesus]

this guy gets on base w/ the same frequency of a little league 9-hole hitter. No thanks.

 

and our current shortstop has the same range as a tee ball player picking grass. Your point?

[Sammy Sofa]

this guy gets on base w/ the same frequency of a little league 9-hole hitter. No thanks.

 

and our current shortstop has the same range as a tee ball player picking grass. Your point?

 

All that matters to wirgley23 is guys getting on base. He doesn't actually care if they score or not or whether they produce runs...he just wants them on base. He's down with OBP. To an insane level.

[JoshiQ]

If you took Sean Penn, and like inflated his nose so it was about double the size, and then gave him Robin Wright Penn's hair, I'm pretty sure you'd get Khalil Greene.

 

http://images.gaslampball.com/images/admin/khalil_ff1.jpg

 

I am not a Nugget!

http://members.fortunecity.com/nowital/owen_hart.jpg

 

Your pic didn't work, but I knew just what you were talking about. How sad is that?

 

http://www.nndb.com/people/130/000065932/owen-hart-sm.jpg

 

Funny, I did too without the photo. Poor Owen never got his revenge. :(

[Illini Iceman]

this guy gets on base w/ the same frequency of a little league 9-hole hitter. No thanks.

 

and our current shortstop has the same range as a tee ball player picking grass. Your point?

 

All that matters to wirgley23 is guys getting on base. He doesn't actually care if they score or not or whether they produce runs...he just wants them on base. He's down with OBP. To an insane level.

 

Stupid guys that get on base and don't score. Base cloggers - that's what they are.

[Sammy Sofa]

this guy gets on base w/ the same frequency of a little league 9-hole hitter. No thanks.

 

and our current shortstop has the same range as a tee ball player picking grass. Your point?

 

All that matters to wirgley23 is guys getting on base. He doesn't actually care if they score or not or whether they produce runs...he just wants them on base. He's down with OBP. To an insane level.

 

Stupid guys that get on base and don't score. Base cloggers - that's what they are.

 

If you're trying to make it sound like I'm spouting a Dustyism, I'm not. This simply harkens back to wrigley23's pathological hatred of Soriano that seems to hinge on Soriano being a leadoff hitter and not having a higher OBP. OBP is one of the most important stats but it is not THE most important stat.

[carolinacubbie]

This guy blows. Just what I want a power hitting SS who really isn't that much of a power hitter, strikes out all the time, and hits in the low .200s. He can't do anything small ball like move the runners over or anything like that, plus he isn't a good fielder. Why do any of you possibly want this ugly looking jackass? This was like his fourth year in the bigs, and he has only gotten worse. He went from a fan favorite in San Diego to a nobody. I had the pleasure of watching him go 0-4 with 4 K's last year at Petco. He struck out to end the game, and the whole crowd booed him. You can say what you want about Theriot, but at least the guy puts the ball in play. We already have enough strike out victims on this team. (Soriano, DeRosa, Lee, Soto) This guy won't help us at all.

 

Wow.

 

There's so much...

 

I mean...

 

The delusion...

 

Wow.

 

Where to begin?

 

 

He had an OPS under 600 had year. He had 100 K's in the 105 games compared to 22 base on balls. He drove in a whopping 35 runs. I'm not arguing Theriot is a much better player, but if we are looking to make an upgrade at SS their has to be someone else much better out there to waist our time on than Khalil Greene. He thinks power when he is at the plate, and he isn't that good at hitting for power. Yeah he has hit over 10 home runs his whole career, but that is strictly because he is ALWAYS swinging for the fence.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't really want Greene either, but I'm amused that the "strikeout victims" we already have happen to be the 4 best hitters on the team.

[wrigley23]

Who is obsessed? I said zero about Soriano although you brought him up. Getting on base & taking pitches while swinging at good ones are characteristics of good hitters. Good hitter & Greene do not belong in the same hemisphere.

[17 Seconds]

Getting on base & taking pitches while swinging at good ones are characteristics of good hitters.

 

but those characteristics are not exclusive or even required

 

i still don't get what this has to do with soriano though.

[Sammy Sofa]

This guy blows. Just what I want a power hitting SS who really isn't that much of a power hitter, strikes out all the time, and hits in the low .200s. He can't do anything small ball like move the runners over or anything like that, plus he isn't a good fielder. Why do any of you possibly want this ugly looking jackass? This was like his fourth year in the bigs, and he has only gotten worse. He went from a fan favorite in San Diego to a nobody. I had the pleasure of watching him go 0-4 with 4 K's last year at Petco. He struck out to end the game, and the whole crowd booed him. You can say what you want about Theriot, but at least the guy puts the ball in play. We already have enough strike out victims on this team. (Soriano, DeRosa, Lee, Soto) This guy won't help us at all.

 

Wow.

 

There's so much...

 

I mean...

 

The delusion...

 

Wow.

 

Where to begin?

 

 

He had an OPS under 600 had year. He had 100 K's in the 105 games compared to 22 base on balls. He drove in a whopping 35 runs. I'm not arguing Theriot is a much better player, but if we are looking to make an upgrade at SS their has to be someone else much better out there to waist our time on than Khalil Greene. He thinks power when he is at the plate, and he isn't that good at hitting for power. Yeah he has hit over 10 home runs his whole career, but that is strictly because he is ALWAYS swinging for the fence.

 

Nobody is going to try and say he had anything but an awful 2008 season, but it ultimately ends up being a question of whether one thinks that's truly indicative of who he is or whether his other seasons do. I'm inclined to think the trends of several other seasons do than a single season. He's shown, 2008 aside, that his splits between Petco and away are rather significant, which seems to strongly indicate that a "change of scenery" playing in more hitter friendly parks would mke a huge difference in his numbers for the season. Is this guarenteed? No, but that good possibility combined with his defense and the Cubs' limited budget (yeah, Greene's contract isn't exactly cheap, but it's likely they'd be able to sign someone like Furcal if they actually give RF the attention it needs) it seems like a good "creative" option. At the end of the day, Theriot's complete lack of power, threatening speed, good baserunning skills and defense makes me prefer Greene. I'm not saying he's not without his obvious flaws as a hitter, but I think in a new setting he'd ultimately produce a LOT more than Theriot runs and RBI-wise plus be a much better defender.

 

My first response was mostly due to the final "strike out victims" nonsense.

[wrigley23]

but those characteristics are not exclusive or even required

i still don't get what this has to do with soriano though.

 

I never said anything about Soriano until someone else brought him up. My original post never mentioned him at all. Now that he is brought up, he shows similar batting characteristics to Greene. Having too many heel swingers in your lineup is good for slow pitch but real bad when forming an MLB lineup.

[Sammy Sofa]

but those characteristics are not exclusive or even required

i still don't get what this has to do with soriano though.

 

I never said anything about Soriano until someone else brought him up. My original post never mentioned him at all. Now that he is brought up, he shows similar batting characteristics to Greene. Having too many heel swingers in your lineup is good for slow pitch but real bad when forming an MLB lineup.

 

Hypothetically, let's say Greene ended up on the Cubs and the optimistic projections based on his road splits end up working out and he hits around 20-25 home runs a year. Soriano hits 30-35. The HR isn't the end-all be-all of a player's worth, but can you really tag 2 players hitting you 50-60 of them a season as "really bad" offensively? That's not saying they wouldn't be without their flaws, but to just dismiss them as broadly as that seems really shortsighted.

[wrigley23]

as is writing off OBP for leadoff hitters & hitters in general....

[17 Seconds]

as is writing off OBP for leadoff hitters & hitters in general....

 

who here wrote off obp? nobody.

 

p.s. leadoff is still not a position. obp is equally important throughout the lineup. highest scoring offense in the league or not, god knows that the main thing we were missing last year was more guys in front of dlee, right?

[BigbadB]

as is writing off OBP for leadoff hitters & hitters in general....

 

As the Cubs lead off hitter in '08:

 

Reed Johnson: .302 OBP, 17 runs in 88 plate appearances, or about 1 run per 5 plate appearances

 

Ryan Theriot: .419 OBP, 5 runs in 74 plate appearances :shock: , or about 1 run per 15 plate appearances

 

Alfonso Soriano: .350 OBP, 76 runs in 492 plate appearances, or about 1 run per 6.4 plate appearances.

 

Realistically, if a guy can average 1 run per 6 plate appearances, he's going to score 100 runs in a season. Just for fun:

 

Brian Roberts: 107 runs in 702 plate appearances, or 1 run per 6.5 plate appearances.

 

Roberts doesn't really generate anymore runs than Soriano. It's simply a myth.