Justify why Josh Hamilton should be in the Top 10 in AL MVP

[Transmogrified Tiger]

lol well i guess that settles it

 

the numbers didn't add up to your preconceptions, so it's the numbers fault!

 

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple.

 

3rd best hitter on his own team.

 

139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08.

[imb]

hand picking a single stat? i think you're kind of embarrassing yourself.

 

you're basing your whole opinion of him off of home/road splits and ignoring every other metric ... someone in this conversation is biased. HINT: ITS NOT ME

 

he may have been the third best hitter on his own team, but he had 120 more ABs (and played a more valuable position) than Ian Kinsler and he had 200 more at bats (and played an actual position instead of DH) than milton bradley ... hence, more valuable.

 

you're honestly in a conversation that's apparently over your head.

[manbearcub]

lol well i guess that settles it

 

the numbers didn't add up to your preconceptions, so it's the numbers fault!

 

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple.

 

3rd best hitter on his own team.

 

139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08.

Biased.

[Outshined_One]

It's not that bad on this board, but the way most baseball people talk about what he did this season is way over the top and I think that will be reflected in the MVP voting.

 

In short, here's what happened - this board has turned into the John Carpenter version of "The Thing." "The Thing" is Josh Hamilton love, and I'm Kurt Russell and the rest of you are all infected with craziness.

 

So, what exactly does this make the rest of the baseball world? You're Donald Sutherland and they're body snatchers?

[17 Seconds]

lol well i guess that settles it

 

the numbers didn't add up to your preconceptions, so it's the numbers fault!

 

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple.

 

3rd best hitter on his own team.

 

139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08.

 

AGAIN, I'm not saying he wasn't a good hitter. Seriously, I don't know why hard to understand. If Pujols was traded to Texas and put up a 1.450 OPS and I stated that his numbers were inflated by that park, it wouldn't mean that I was denying that he's a good hitter.

[17 Seconds]

hand picking a single stat? i think you're kind of embarrassing yourself.

 

you're basing your whole opinion of him off of home/road splits and ignoring every other metric ... someone in this conversation is biased. HINT: ITS NOT ME

 

he may have been the third best hitter on his own team, but he had 120 more ABs (and played a more valuable position) than Ian Kinsler and he had 200 more at bats (and played an actual position instead of DH) than milton bradley ... hence, more valuable.

 

you're honestly in a conversation that's apparently over your head.

 

I wasn't bringing up Kinsler and Bradley in terms of MVP voting, because obviously the injuries would play a factor. My point in bringing them up was to show that Hamilton wasn't even a top 2 offensive player on his own team this season, yet apparently he was some freak of nature while on the field. He's "The natural".. but only when Bradley and Kinsler are on the DL. When they're healthy it's just not fair to ocmpare them..because Hamilton clearly rubbed off on them, allowing them to outperform him. What a great story.

 

Okay, so you're touting VORP so hard.... so can you give me a detailed walkthrough of how stadiums are taken into account? I want equations and all that. I know it does, but I'd like to hear all aobut it from you.... otherwise you're just throwing out a number that somebody else came up with and passing it off as your own argument.

 

you're basing your whole opinion of him off of home/road splits and ignoring every other metric

 

Umm, I am? No I'm not, you're just choosing not to listen to what I'm saying. What metric am I denying? VORP and what else? I didn't deny the fact that he had just the 16th best OPS in the league. Where are all these denials from me? I asked you to explain the home/road part of VORP and that's it.

 

Actually, you're are the one that is sticking to one metric and denying everything else.

 

"Well yeah, all the other evidence shows that he shouldn't be in the top 10 of MVP voting, but VORP shows him as 5th so that's all that matters. I don't really know how home/road is factored into VORP either, but I bet it's good. The guy who made it is really smart."

[17 Seconds]

lol well i guess that settles it

 

the numbers didn't add up to your preconceptions, so it's the numbers fault!

 

At least I'm not hand picking a single stat and then acting like it shows you're 100% correct. Look at his home/road splits and what Arlington did for other hitters in 2008 and then try to tell me with a straight face that he was the 5th most valuable player in the league. If you do you're just lying to yourself and are biased. Pretty simple.

 

3rd best hitter on his own team.

 

139 OPS+ in Arlington, obviously significantly better than what Arlington did for other hitters in '08.

Biased.

 

Nope, just not comprehending what I'm writing.

 

This thread is a perfect example of the what OP was talking about. As soon as you question anything that has to do with Josh Hamilton, you get destroyed...but not with facts. People just can't stand to fathom the idea that Hamilton might not be a god.

[imb]

do you really think they're going to release the equations for their own stat? if you don't understand it, that's your problem.

 

i'm not saying that it's the end all be all stat, i'm saying that if you're in the top 5 of your own league in the stat, only a fool would have a problem with you being in the top 10 mvp voting

[imb]

"Well yeah, all the other evidence shows that he shouldn't be in the top 10 of MVP voting, but VORP shows him as 5th so that's all that matters. I don't really know how home/road is factored into VORP either, but I bet it's good. The guy who made it is really smart."

 

are you seriously this clueless? lol

[NonProfitCow]

so what? he still produced enough to be counted as one of the 10 most valuable players in the league. doesn't matter if it was in arlington or some little league park.

 

Wait, it doesn't matter if he was helped greatly by his own park? Seriously? It really seems like you're reaching now. Of course it matters, because if any other player was put in Hamilton's position this season, he would have recieved the same beneifits. So because Hamilton gets that benefit, he is more valuable than those other guys? No, the stadium is just more valuable. This is relevant because every visiting player that steps into that staidum gets the same advantage, putting Hamilton less in front of the curve.

 

Put it this way. Let's say the Rangers trade for Mark DeRosa, who then goes .300/.385/.525 with 26 home runs next season Meanwhile, Adrian Gonzalez goes .285/.365/.525 while playing in Petco. Pretend for a minute that they both played the same position... so who was more valuable? By your logic, DeRosa would be, although Gonzalez would have put up better numbers if they both played in the same park. That makes sense to you? If position is factored into MVP voting, then ballparks should be as well.

Of course DeRosa would be. You're mixing up predictors for future results and actual results. Going forward Gonzalez would obviously be the best bet, but that's just not what happened. I understand what you're trying to say, but saying that Hamilton isn't top 10 in the AL is foolish. It's not that he is a good story because he used to be a crackhead or whatever, it's that he was a damn good player this year.

[NonProfitCow]

hand picking a single stat? i think you're kind of embarrassing yourself.

 

you're basing your whole opinion of him off of home/road splits and ignoring every other metric ... someone in this conversation is biased. HINT: ITS NOT ME

 

he may have been the third best hitter on his own team, but he had 120 more ABs (and played a more valuable position) than Ian Kinsler and he had 200 more at bats (and played an actual position instead of DH) than milton bradley ... hence, more valuable.

 

you're honestly in a conversation that's apparently over your head.

 

I wasn't bringing up Kinsler and Bradley in terms of MVP voting, because obviously the injuries would play a factor. My point in bringing them up was to show that Hamilton wasn't even a top 2 offensive player on his own team this season, yet apparently he was some freak of nature while on the field. He's "The natural".. but only when Bradley and Kinsler are on the DL. When they're healthy it's just not fair to ocmpare them..because Hamilton clearly rubbed off on them, allowing them to outperform him. What a great story.

 

Okay, so you're touting VORP so hard.... so can you give me a detailed walkthrough of how stadiums are taken into account? I want equations and all that. I know it does, but I'd like to hear all aobut it from you.... otherwise you're just throwing out a number that somebody else came up with and passing it off as your own argument.

 

you're basing your whole opinion of him off of home/road splits and ignoring every other metric

 

Umm, I am? No I'm not, you're just choosing not to listen to what I'm saying. What metric am I denying? VORP and what else? I didn't deny the fact that he had just the 16th best OPS in the league. Where are all these denials from me? I asked you to explain the home/road part of VORP and that's it.

 

Actually, you're are the one that is sticking to one metric and denying everything else.

 

"Well yeah, all the other evidence shows that he shouldn't be in the top 10 of MVP voting, but VORP shows him as 5th so that's all that matters. I don't really know how home/road is factored into VORP either, but I bet it's good. The guy who made it is really smart."

at least we agree on something

[Derwood]

it seems like an awful lot of work to cherry pick stats on a guy to show he's "unworthy" of MVP when we know you just don't like the guy because he was a drug addict given a second chance.

[bukie]

He's also 4th in the AL in Win Shares, incidentally, and that is also a park-neutral stat.

[Derwood]

i'd love to hear badnews' MVP Top 10

[Sammy Sofa]

"I'm, like, angry at numbers and stuff."

[sneakypower]

Arlington just turns hitters into OPS gods

 

like Milton Bradley, who had an OPS last year of 1004 and Hamilton who had 922 OPS

...for different teams

 

 

before the season, scouts were raving about a former #1 pick's talent, with some predicting he could hit 40 or 50 HRs this year. he ain't 2000 Jeffrey Hammonds

 

Arlington helped him hit 72 HRs or whatever in the HR derby too I guess

[abuck1220]

As soon as you question anything that has to do with Josh Hamilton, you get destroyed...but not with facts.

 

vorp is park adjusted and he still finished no. 5 in the al

 

He's also 4th in the AL in Win Shares, incidentally, and that is also a park-neutral stat.

 

this is not going well for you.

[17 Seconds]

it seems like an awful lot of work to cherry pick stats on a guy to show he's "unworthy" of MVP when we know you just don't like the guy because he was a drug addict given a second chance.

 

Can you not read? Stop making assumptions that are clearly wrong. I already said I like Hamilton, I really do. When the rumors of getting him popped up in the offseason I wanted him...badly. I just don't think he should be top 10 in the MVP voting. I know people who are recovering drug addicts, so stop acting like I have a problem with that.

[17 Seconds]

As soon as you question anything that has to do with Josh Hamilton, you get destroyed...but not with facts.

 

vorp is park adjusted and he still finished no. 5 in the al

 

He's also 4th in the AL in Win Shares, incidentally, and that is also a park-neutral stat.

 

this is not going well for you.

 

Except that they can't explain how parks are factored into those stats, so it's had for me to take them seriously in that regard.

 

Seriously, I have provided reasoning with facts that can easily be explained. They are tossing out stats that CANNOT be explained by them, and instead are passing off somebody else's work as their own argument.

 

Hamilton's splits are easily explained.

The effect that Arlington had on other hitters this easily explained.

I'm still waiting on the VORP explanation.

 

Seriously, it makes their arguments look even weaker.

 

"Ihave no idea how this stat is formulated or how parks are factored in.....but it totally makes me right. You can't argue it, because it's a stat that shows I'm correct."

 

If Hamilton plays in a neutral park in 2008, he's an .850 OPS guy and we're not having this argument. PERIOD.

[17 Seconds]

It really is comical that people flip out whenever anybody questions Hamilton.

 

If you're denying that Arlington pumped up his numbers, you're lying and you know it.

 

If this was any other player, you'd all be agreeing.

 

Instead, you'll keep bringing up numbers that are meaningless without explanation and then blast any blasphemer who questions it.

 

Keep teaming up on us as we provide simple logic though, it sounds fun.

[17 Seconds]

"I'm, like, angry at numbers and stuff."

 

Nope, I'm the one whp provides numbers. The rest provide stats that are completely meaningless without explanation.

[17 Seconds]

"Well yeah, all the other evidence shows that he shouldn't be in the top 10 of MVP voting, but VORP shows him as 5th so that's all that matters. I don't really know how home/road is factored into VORP either, but I bet it's good. The guy who made it is really smart."

 

are you seriously this clueless? lol

 

Yes I am, and so are you. The difference is that I'm not using VORP as an argument and then failing to explain anything about it. Good argument.

[17 Seconds]

so what? he still produced enough to be counted as one of the 10 most valuable players in the league. doesn't matter if it was in arlington or some little league park.

 

Wait, it doesn't matter if he was helped greatly by his own park? Seriously? It really seems like you're reaching now. Of course it matters, because if any other player was put in Hamilton's position this season, he would have recieved the same beneifits. So because Hamilton gets that benefit, he is more valuable than those other guys? No, the stadium is just more valuable. This is relevant because every visiting player that steps into that staidum gets the same advantage, putting Hamilton less in front of the curve.

 

Put it this way. Let's say the Rangers trade for Mark DeRosa, who then goes .300/.385/.525 with 26 home runs next season Meanwhile, Adrian Gonzalez goes .285/.365/.525 while playing in Petco. Pretend for a minute that they both played the same position... so who was more valuable? By your logic, DeRosa would be, although Gonzalez would have put up better numbers if they both played in the same park. That makes sense to you? If position is factored into MVP voting, then ballparks should be as well.

Of course DeRosa would be. You're mixing up predictors for future results and actual results. Going forward Gonzalez would obviously be the best bet, but that's just not what happened.

 

That is seriously some flawed logic. A players worth, value, and overall skill level is determined by those around him. If the average OPS was 1.500, a 1.100 OPS would be considered terrible. When hitters step into a park like Arlington that turns every body into a better hitter, you are less ahead of the curve. If it turns a .750 OPS hitter into an .800 OPS hitter, then a 1.000 hitter is no more valuable than a .950 OPS hitter who plays somewhere else, because that is how far ahead of the curve he is.

 

It's not the "most productive hitter" award, it's the most valuable player. In the example I gave with Gonzalez and DeRosa, Gonzalez would not be the most productive hitter, but would be the most valuable. If you could choose between the 2 players in the example, knowing both would be playing in the same park, you'd pick Gonzalez..... meaning he had more value.

[imb]

do you realize what his 139 ops+ in his home park means?

 

just kidding, it's obvious that you don't.

 

It really is comical that people flip out whenever anybody questions Hamilton.

 

*makes 6 posts in a row in 5 minute span*

[abuck1220]

 

If this was any other player, you'd all be agreeing.

 

where are you getting this delusional idea that everyone here loooooooves josh hamilton?