7/25 - Fish (Johnson) @ Cubs (Demps), 1:20 CT, WGN

[JonnyRed]

Brutal game today and what a waste of a for-the-most-part well pitched game. We should score more than 2 runs when you have 15 baserunners.

[UMFan83]

After reading the last 5 pages it's hard to believe we have the best record in the NL.

 

Had the best record by 5.5 games 2 weeks ago, 0.5 games now. Oh, and because the 2nd and 3rd best teams in our division are also the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the NL, losing best record status means losing 1st place.

 

Every team goes through slumps. Be patient...we'll be just fine.

 

I'm just explaining why 'having the best record in the NL' is irrelevant in this discussion

[weis21]

Brutal game today and what a waste of a for-the-most-part well pitched game. We should score more than 2 runs when you have 15 baserunners.

The encouraging sign is that we actually had 15 baserunners, just couldn't come up with a timely hit.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Fans' reply to concerns about starting usage in 2003:

 

May: Shut up, it's early.

August/Sept.: Shut up, it's working.

October: Man, I wish we hadn't done that...

 

 

Fans' reply to concerns about bullpen usage that many of us have been bringing up all season:

 

April/May: Shut up, it's early.

June/July: Shut up, we're still in first place.

August/Sept: (predicted) Shut up, it hasn't sunk our season yet.

October: (predicted) Man, I wish we hadn't done that.

[FergieJ31]

As someone who enjoys reading the game threads but posts sporadically, I have to say the tolerance level is a tad low.

 

The negative posters post mostly as a means of venting after tough losses like today. They're voicing their fears, which many of us share but don't say out loud. I say let 'em vent. Live and let live and all that.

 

As a side note, I really really hate the fuggin Marlins. So much.

[C.C.]

People sure do love to belittle people of opinions they don't want to hear.

 

Get real. Nobody is panicking because we lost a few games. I've been strongly concerned about this team for quite awhile because we have serious bullpen problems, not the least of which are that our manager doesn't have the slightest clue how to manage one, and we are in a very tough division.

 

This isn't about a bad week and a half. It's about the Brewers being an exceptional team, several other good teams in the NL, our bullpen showing all kinds of negative indicators, and many other negative signs that were easy to brush aside the first time we reached 20 over.

 

And we aren't? Dude seriously, it's easy to bag on a team that is in a slump and easy to pump up a team when they are playing great. The fact remains is the Brewers and the Cubs are two very good ball clubs and they will be battling all summer long. Get used to it.

[CubsBears29]

Fans' reply to concerns about starting usage in 2003:

 

May: Shut up, it's early.

August/Sept.: Shut up, it's working.

October: Man, I wish we hadn't done that...

 

 

Fans' reply to concerns about bullpen usage that many of us have been bringing up all season:

 

April/May: Shut up, it's early.

June/July: Shut up, we're still in first place.

August/Sept: (predicted) Shut up, it hasn't sunk our season yet.

October: (predicted) Man, I wish we hadn't done that.

 

Hell, I WANT Howry's arm to fall off, literally, so Lou can't keep letting pile up losses and ERA.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

So what past cubs teams have done is a precursor to what this team will do?

 

News to me.

 

 

I see no problem with using the past to evaluate possible futures.

 

Every member of this ballclub was picked by the same people as those who picked previous ballclubs.

 

Every executive of front-office member was picked by previous ones, as well.

 

Each edition of the Cubs team is not an independent simulation of a baseball team. It is a continuation of an organization that has shown time and again it is capable of failure from almost any situation.

[UMFan83]

As someone who enjoys reading the game threads but posts sporadically, I have to say the tolerance level is a tad low.

 

The negative posters post mostly as a means of venting after tough losses like today. They're voicing their fears, which many of us share but don't say out loud. I say let 'em vent. Live and let live and all that.

 

As a side note, I really really hate the fuggin Marlins. So much.

 

Exactly, I think everyone needs to get high and chill out.

 

Haha wait, I am not advocating drug use. Just everyone chill out.

[WilcoFan]

Fans' reply to concerns about starting usage in 2003:

 

May: Shut up, it's early.

August/Sept.: Shut up, it's working.

October: Man, I wish we hadn't done that...

 

 

Fans' reply to concerns about bullpen usage that many of us have been bringing up all season:

 

April/May: Shut up, it's early.

June/July: Shut up, we're still in first place.

August/Sept: (predicted) Shut up, it hasn't sunk our season yet.

October: (predicted) Man, I wish we hadn't done that.

 

And the fans enjoyed 95% of the season and were disappointed 5% of the season, while the Chicken Littles complained and made life as a Cubs fan worse for everyone 100% of the season. I'll take stupid optimism over idiotic pessimism every day.

[CubsBears29]

Fans' reply to concerns about starting usage in 2003:

 

May: Shut up, it's early.

August/Sept.: Shut up, it's working.

October: Man, I wish we hadn't done that...

 

 

Fans' reply to concerns about bullpen usage that many of us have been bringing up all season:

 

April/May: Shut up, it's early.

June/July: Shut up, we're still in first place.

August/Sept: (predicted) Shut up, it hasn't sunk our season yet.

October: (predicted) Man, I wish we hadn't done that.

 

And the fans enjoyed 95% of the season and were disappointed 5% of the season, while the Chicken Littles complained and made life as a Cubs fan worse for everyone 100% of the season. I'll take stupid optimism over idiotic pessimism every day.

 

And the fact that that 5% of the season potentially cost us a WS doesn't matter in the least?? Uh huh.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Fans' reply to concerns about starting usage in 2003:

 

May: Shut up, it's early.

August/Sept.: Shut up, it's working.

October: Man, I wish we hadn't done that...

 

 

Fans' reply to concerns about bullpen usage that many of us have been bringing up all season:

 

April/May: Shut up, it's early.

June/July: Shut up, we're still in first place.

August/Sept: (predicted) Shut up, it hasn't sunk our season yet.

October: (predicted) Man, I wish we hadn't done that.

 

And the fans enjoyed 95% of the season and were disappointed 5% of the season, while the Chicken Littles complained and made life as a Cubs fan worse for everyone 100% of the season. I'll take stupid optimism over idiotic pessimism every day.

 

Then you may feel free to slap me on ignore, because what I consider to be reasoned concern you will doubtlessly dismiss as idiotic pessimism.

[WilcoFan]

Fans' reply to concerns about starting usage in 2003:

 

May: Shut up, it's early.

August/Sept.: Shut up, it's working.

October: Man, I wish we hadn't done that...

 

 

Fans' reply to concerns about bullpen usage that many of us have been bringing up all season:

 

April/May: Shut up, it's early.

June/July: Shut up, we're still in first place.

August/Sept: (predicted) Shut up, it hasn't sunk our season yet.

October: (predicted) Man, I wish we hadn't done that.

 

And the fans enjoyed 95% of the season and were disappointed 5% of the season, while the Chicken Littles complained and made life as a Cubs fan worse for everyone 100% of the season. I'll take stupid optimism over idiotic pessimism every day.

 

Then you may feel free to slap me on ignore, because what I consider to be reasoned concern you will doubtlessly dismiss as idiotic pessimism.

 

Pretty much.

 

 

Then again, why would I put you on ignore? You're my baseline. I know that if I ever get to that level of negativity, then I would make everyone around me want to kill me and sports just aren't worth watching.

Edited July 25, 2008 by WilcoFan

[Hairyducked Idiot]

People sure do love to belittle people of opinions they don't want to hear.

 

Get real. Nobody is panicking because we lost a few games. I've been strongly concerned about this team for quite awhile because we have serious bullpen problems, not the least of which are that our manager doesn't have the slightest clue how to manage one, and we are in a very tough division.

 

This isn't about a bad week and a half. It's about the Brewers being an exceptional team, several other good teams in the NL, our bullpen showing all kinds of negative indicators, and many other negative signs that were easy to brush aside the first time we reached 20 over.

 

And we aren't? Dude seriously, it's easy to bag on a team that is in a slump and easy to pump up a team when they are playing great. The fact remains is the Brewers and the Cubs are two very good ball clubs and they will be battling all summer long. Get used to it.

 

With only two months remaining and the lead we had built being virtually completely gone, the fact that we are a very good team now means a lot less than it did a week ago. A great team needs all six months to separate themselves from the pack. If they fail to do it, they risk being beaten by a slightly inferior team over a small sample. That's a position I never wanted to see this Cubs team put themselves into.

[weis21]

So what past cubs teams have done is a precursor to what this team will do?

 

News to me.

 

 

I see no problem with using the past to evaluate possible futures.

 

Every member of this ballclub was picked by the same people as those who picked previous ballclubs.

 

Every executive of front-office member was picked by previous ones, as well.

 

Each edition of the Cubs team is not an independent simulation of a baseball team. It is a continuation of an organization that has shown time and again it is capable of failure from almost any situation.

 

Just because someone was "picked" to play for the cubs, that does not make them a choke artist. They are different players, playing in a different time, against different opposition. I expect, given those factors, that results may vary just a tad from previous years, no? I'm not sure what to make of the executive point, other than they obviously pick players that fold?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

So what past cubs teams have done is a precursor to what this team will do?

 

News to me.

 

 

I see no problem with using the past to evaluate possible futures.

 

Every member of this ballclub was picked by the same people as those who picked previous ballclubs.

 

Every executive of front-office member was picked by previous ones, as well.

 

Each edition of the Cubs team is not an independent simulation of a baseball team. It is a continuation of an organization that has shown time and again it is capable of failure from almost any situation.

 

Just because someone was "picked" to play for the cubs, that does not make them a choke artist. They are different players, playing in a different time, against different opposition. I expect, given those factors, that results may vary just a tad from previous years, no? I'm not sure what to make of the executive point, other than they obviously pick players that fold?

 

How about a more concrete example, then:

 

The same GM that did not smack Dusty Baker in the head and say "Hey, stop being an idiot with Mark Prior's arm. Every inning you waste him with now is an inning we might wish his arm still had in it later."

 

Is the same GM that did not smack Lou Piniella in the head and say "Hey, stop being an idiot with Carlos Marmol's arm. Every inning you waste him with now is an inning we might wish his arm had later."

 

Andy MacPhail is the guy who refused to accept age-based concerns about Sosa in the summer he was almost traded, which would have been much better for the team, and instead kept him at an age for too long.

 

Andy MacPhail is the guy who hired Jim Hendry, presumably because he liked and agreed with his views on building a baseball team.

 

Jim Hendry is the guy who thought Alfonso Soriano would be a great investment at his age (and with middle-infield miles on his legs, which is never a good thing long-term) and wasn't concerned that both of our other star hitters are also entering the age where skill drops are quite possible.

 

Alfonso Soriano's legs and the possibly skill drops of our two best hitters have been a drag on the team to this point in teh season.

 

See how little bad decisions build on themselves and become detriments to winning?

[C.C.]

People sure do love to belittle people of opinions they don't want to hear.

 

Get real. Nobody is panicking because we lost a few games. I've been strongly concerned about this team for quite awhile because we have serious bullpen problems, not the least of which are that our manager doesn't have the slightest clue how to manage one, and we are in a very tough division.

 

This isn't about a bad week and a half. It's about the Brewers being an exceptional team, several other good teams in the NL, our bullpen showing all kinds of negative indicators, and many other negative signs that were easy to brush aside the first time we reached 20 over.

 

And we aren't? Dude seriously, it's easy to bag on a team that is in a slump and easy to pump up a team when they are playing great. The fact remains is the Brewers and the Cubs are two very good ball clubs and they will be battling all summer long. Get used to it.

 

With only two months remaining and the lead we had built being virtually completely gone, the fact that we are a very good team now means a lot less than it did a week ago. A great team needs all six months to separate themselves from the pack. If they fail to do it, they risk being beaten by a slightly inferior team over a small sample. That's a position I never wanted to see this Cubs team put themselves into.

 

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

[weis21]

So what past cubs teams have done is a precursor to what this team will do?

 

News to me.

 

 

I see no problem with using the past to evaluate possible futures.

 

Every member of this ballclub was picked by the same people as those who picked previous ballclubs.

 

Every executive of front-office member was picked by previous ones, as well.

 

Each edition of the Cubs team is not an independent simulation of a baseball team. It is a continuation of an organization that has shown time and again it is capable of failure from almost any situation.

 

Just because someone was "picked" to play for the cubs, that does not make them a choke artist. They are different players, playing in a different time, against different opposition. I expect, given those factors, that results may vary just a tad from previous years, no? I'm not sure what to make of the executive point, other than they obviously pick players that fold?

 

How about a more concrete example, then:

 

The same GM that did not smack Dusty Baker in the head and say "Hey, stop being an idiot with Mark Prior's arm. Every inning you waste him with now is an inning we might wish his arm still had in it later."

 

Is the same GM that did not smack Lou Piniella in the head and say "Hey, stop being an idiot with Carlos Marmol's arm. Every inning you waste him with now is an inning we might wish his arm had later."

 

Andy MacPhail is the guy who refused to accept age-based concerns about Sosa in the summer he was almost traded, which would have been much better for the team, and instead kept him at an age for too long.

 

Andy MacPhail is the guy who hired Jim Hendry, presumably because he liked and agreed with his views on building a baseball team.

 

Jim Hendry is the guy who thought Alfonso Soriano would be a great investment at his age (and with middle-infield miles on his legs, which is never a good thing long-term) and wasn't concerned that both of our other star hitters are also entering the age where skill drops are quite possible.

 

Alfonso Soriano's legs and the possibly skill drops of our two best hitters have been a drag on the team to this point in teh season.

 

See how little bad decisions build on themselves and become detriments to winning?

 

Ah. Your right. Thanks for the heads up. I'll just skip the rest of the season since we know exactly what will happen.

 

Seriously though, every team has strengths and weaknesses. Every GM makes good decisions and bad ones. I don't the Cubs will fold down the stretch because they lost a few years ago. I've got to run now but all I'm saying is that it's not a valid comparison to me. If you can make it work for you though, knock yourself out.

Edited July 25, 2008 by weis21

[CubsBears29]

People sure do love to belittle people of opinions they don't want to hear.

 

Get real. Nobody is panicking because we lost a few games. I've been strongly concerned about this team for quite awhile because we have serious bullpen problems, not the least of which are that our manager doesn't have the slightest clue how to manage one, and we are in a very tough division.

 

This isn't about a bad week and a half. It's about the Brewers being an exceptional team, several other good teams in the NL, our bullpen showing all kinds of negative indicators, and many other negative signs that were easy to brush aside the first time we reached 20 over.

 

And we aren't? Dude seriously, it's easy to bag on a team that is in a slump and easy to pump up a team when they are playing great. The fact remains is the Brewers and the Cubs are two very good ball clubs and they will be battling all summer long. Get used to it.

 

With only two months remaining and the lead we had built being virtually completely gone, the fact that we are a very good team now means a lot less than it did a week ago. A great team needs all six months to separate themselves from the pack. If they fail to do it, they risk being beaten by a slightly inferior team over a small sample. That's a position I never wanted to see this Cubs team put themselves into.

 

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

 

Very much likely to happen, but all conjecture at this point.

 

Just like the Cardinals, they very well may fall out of the NLC and WC races, but they might not either. Only time will tell.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

 

If the Brewers and one wild-card contender have a great two months and squeak ahead of us, am I supposed to be okay with it? What should have been a sure bet is now down to a good bet, and I see no reason not to be very unhappy about that.

 

Yes, I think a well-managed team could have easily maintained the frantic pace we set in the first half of the year. Just because we're used to winning division titles with 88 games doesn't mean 100 is impossible.

[Soul]

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

 

If the Brewers and one wild-card contender have a great two months and squeak ahead of us, am I supposed to be okay with it? What should have been a sure bet is now down to a good bet, and I see no reason not to be very unhappy about that.

 

Yes, I think a well-managed team could have easily maintained the frantic pace we set in the first half of the year. Just because we're used to winning division titles with 88 games doesn't mean 100 is impossible.

 

To be fair though, the Brewers weren't playing nearly this good earlier. It could be that we're pretty equal and just decided to have the spurt at a different time.

 

At the moment, we are still talking about 2 teams with top-tier records. I'm still upset we're not tearing it up anymore because I hate losing, but I'm also trying to maintain some objectivity here.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Ah. Your right. Thanks for the heads up. I'll just skip the rest of the season since we know exactly what will happen.

 

That's called a strawman. You restated my argument to be something I never said and mocked it.

 

Seriously though, every team has strengths and weaknesses. Every GM makes good decisions and bad ones. I don't the Cubs will fold down the stretch because they lost a few years ago. I've got to run now but all I'm saying is that it's not a valid comparison to me. If you can make it work for you though, knock yourself out.

 

And this is an equivocation. You are trying to make things seem equal that aren't.

 

Every team has strengths and weaknesses, sure, and every GM makes good and bad decisions. But that doesn't mean the net results of either are equal. They aren't.

 

Right now, the Cubs will probably continue to be a great team and that will probably be enough to make the playoffs, where fortunately you don't have to be the best team to win.

 

But given what I see from this team and what I've seen from past Cubs' teams that *do* have connections to this team, I think it is uncomfortably possible (though improbable) that we may not be a great team from here on out, or that we may be but variance will leave us outside the playoffs.

[Soul]

People sure do love to belittle people of opinions they don't want to hear.

 

Get real. Nobody is panicking because we lost a few games. I've been strongly concerned about this team for quite awhile because we have serious bullpen problems, not the least of which are that our manager doesn't have the slightest clue how to manage one, and we are in a very tough division.

 

This isn't about a bad week and a half. It's about the Brewers being an exceptional team, several other good teams in the NL, our bullpen showing all kinds of negative indicators, and many other negative signs that were easy to brush aside the first time we reached 20 over.

 

And we aren't? Dude seriously, it's easy to bag on a team that is in a slump and easy to pump up a team when they are playing great. The fact remains is the Brewers and the Cubs are two very good ball clubs and they will be battling all summer long. Get used to it.

 

With only two months remaining and the lead we had built being virtually completely gone, the fact that we are a very good team now means a lot less than it did a week ago. A great team needs all six months to separate themselves from the pack. If they fail to do it, they risk being beaten by a slightly inferior team over a small sample. That's a position I never wanted to see this Cubs team put themselves into.

 

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

 

Very much likely to happen, but all conjecture at this point.

 

Just like the Cardinals, they very well may fall out of the NLC and WC races, but they might not either. Only time will tell.

 

I just can't see the Cards. Especially after that series with Milwaukee. The Crew showed them what they really are. They played well until September last year too and then just collapsed on a titanic level. That should happen again, only earlier.

 

The Crew are a great team though. Unfortunately we've known they were coming for awhile now. Well -- they're here. We're going to have to deal with them somehow, but this isn't really a suprise to me.

[C.C.]

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

 

If the Brewers and one wild-card contender have a great two months and squeak ahead of us, am I supposed to be okay with it? What should have been a sure bet is now down to a good bet, and I see no reason not to be very unhappy about that.

 

Yes, I think a well-managed team could have easily maintained the frantic pace we set in the first half of the year. Just because we're used to winning division titles with 88 games doesn't mean 100 is impossible.

 

The Brewers have just won 8 straight games. When a team goes on that type a run they are going to gain ground. The fact remains we have the 2nd best record in baseball. Our starting pitching has been solid and our offense is showing signs of waking up. It's only a matter of time before we pick it up.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Before today we were 5-5 in our last 10 games. It's not like we are losing 10 games in a row. It just so happens that the Brewers have been tearing it up. The Brewers are not going to keep up this pace and we will play better. We still have the best record in the NL, it just so happens that the Brewers have the 2nd best record in the NL. We just got to ride it out.

 

Did you really believe we would keep up the frantic pace we set in the 1st half of the year?

 

If the Brewers and one wild-card contender have a great two months and squeak ahead of us, am I supposed to be okay with it? What should have been a sure bet is now down to a good bet, and I see no reason not to be very unhappy about that.

 

Yes, I think a well-managed team could have easily maintained the frantic pace we set in the first half of the year. Just because we're used to winning division titles with 88 games doesn't mean 100 is impossible.

 

To be fair though, the Brewers weren't playing nearly this good earlier. It could be that we're pretty equal and just decided to have the spurt at a different time.

 

At the moment, we are still talking about 2 teams with top-tier records. I'm still upset we're not tearing it up anymore because I hate losing, but I'm also trying to maintain some objectivity here.

 

On the objective points, we probably basically agree. The Cubs have gone from about a 95% playoff chance at their peak to around an 85% chance now.

 

Whether that lost 10% bothers you, and how much, is the subjective part. It bothers me a lot.