We owe Theriot some praise!

[CubbieBum]

i'm gonna join a cardinals forum and start a ryan ludwick i told you so thread.

 

that would be hilarious ... if you do post a link

[CubbieBum]

every thread you post in somehow ends up weirder than the one before

 

if you are referring to me I'm completely joking in this thread. I don't get into 'I told so' unless I actually know you. The only person i would ever say 'I told you so ' to on here is Andy and that's because he's my old roommate and we argued more than once over Theriot playing at the beginning of the season.

 

And in some threads I try to injest some comedy ... especially when I am posting at 3 or 4 in the morning.

 

If you were referring to the Op then ... :lol:

[Vanilla Ice]

every thread you post in somehow ends up weirder than the one before

 

if you are referring to me I'm completely joking in this thread. I don't get into 'I told so' unless I actually know you. The only person i would ever say 'I told you so ' to on here is Andy and that's because he's my old roommate and we argued more than once over Theriot playing at the beginning of the season.

 

And in some threads I try to injest some comedy ... especially when I am posting at 3 or 4 in the morning.

 

If you were referring to the Op then ... :lol:

cant be the OP

 

this is the only thread hes posted in

[CubbieBum]

every thread you post in somehow ends up weirder than the one before

 

if you are referring to me I'm completely joking in this thread. I don't get into 'I told so' unless I actually know you. The only person i would ever say 'I told you so ' to on here is Andy and that's because he's my old roommate and we argued more than once over Theriot playing at the beginning of the season.

 

And in some threads I try to injest some comedy ... especially when I am posting at 3 or 4 in the morning.

 

If you were referring to the Op then ... :lol:

cant be the OP

 

this is the only thread hes posted in

 

well that joke went right over your head

[MasterBlaster]

I remember reading an interesting argument on here awhile back on Theriot vs. Cedeno. The argument was formed from the question of which player would you rather have: If both players OPS .750, do you want Theriot who has to work really really hard to obtain .750, or Cedeno who has natural talent and could possibly perform better, but for some reason doesn't utilize his talents at the MLB, yet still OPS .750?

 

I thought it was an OK question, one that heavily favored Cedeno based on potential, and also totally ignores that Cedeno had an entire season starting at the MLB level before Theriot even got a chance. I never really understood why players who have to play hard (grit) get so much flack, I mean I know that David Eckstein pretty much sucks and was on a rival team, but it shouldn't be such a shock that people in general will find attraction with players who don't have natural talent, but rather toil and grind their way into the system.

 

What I like about Theriot is that he has an appreciation for how fortunate he is to even be in MLB. Someone like Cedeno who can probably OPS .750 with half the effort (with regular playing time), IMHO, doesn't quite have that same level of understanding or care about his situation. Doesn't (or hasn't) Cedeno pretty much utilize his time with the Cubs as a giant after hours party? IIRC he's kind of a playboy out of uniform. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What does off the field activities have to do with anything? Dedication. I know, I know, dedication isn't a statistic. While I value certain statistics highly, I try to keep an opinion that bears in mind that no matter how many stats we surround ourselves with, and despite my dream of having computerized umps, the players are not robots. I honestly think some of you knowledgeable statistics guys totally forget this. They aren't robots. This of course leads to the concept of team chemistry which I know you guys hate, but I don't think it's the laughable joke many of you think it is. Anyone who's worked a real job with other individuals can tell you that work is much easier when everyone respects eachother and people get along. Players will still hate each other when the team is winning, I don't buy the argument that Wins create good chemistry. It might zip some lips for a little bit, that's all.

 

I want and respect the guy on the team that knows he has to play his hardest to succeed. IMO, Theriot sets a much better example for his teammates than Cedeno (of course I don't know how the team views either player, but I know how I view them), and has real motivation to play well. I'm really happy with Theriot's performance this year, and I would prefer to see all the grit jokes stop. I don't see whats so cute and funny about making fun of hard work.

[Sammy Sofa]

I remember reading an interesting argument on here awhile back on Theriot vs. Cedeno. The argument was formed from the question of which player would you rather have: If both players OPS .750, do you want Theriot who has to work really really hard to obtain .750, or Cedeno who has natural talent and could possibly perform better, but for some reason doesn't utilize his talents at the MLB, yet still OPS .750?

 

I thought it was an OK question, one that heavily favored Cedeno based on potential, and also totally ignores that Cedeno had an entire season starting at the MLB level before Theriot even got a chance. I never really understood why players who have to play hard (grit) get so much flack, I mean I know that David Eckstein pretty much sucks and was on a rival team, but it shouldn't be such a shock that people in general will find attraction with players who don't have natural talent, but rather toil and grind their way into the system.

 

What I like about Theriot is that he has an appreciation for how fortunate he is to even be in MLB. Someone like Cedeno who can probably OPS .750 with half the effort (with regular playing time), IMHO, doesn't quite have that same level of understanding or care about his situation. Doesn't (or hasn't) Cedeno pretty much utilize his time with the Cubs as a giant after hours party? IIRC he's kind of a playboy out of uniform. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What does off the field activities have to do with anything? Dedication. I know, I know, dedication isn't a statistic. While I value certain statistics highly, I try to keep an opinion that bears in mind that no matter how many stats we surround ourselves with, and despite my dream of having computerized umps, the players are not robots. I honestly think some of you knowledgeable statistics guys totally forget this. They aren't robots. This of course leads to the concept of team chemistry which I know you guys hate, but I don't think it's the laughable joke many of you think it is. Anyone who's worked a real job with other individuals can tell you that work is much easier when everyone respects eachother and people get along. Players will still hate each other when the team is winning, I don't buy the argument that Wins create good chemistry. It might zip some lips for a little bit, that's all.

 

I want and respect the guy on the team that knows he has to play his hardest to succeed. IMO, Theriot sets a much better example for his teammates than Cedeno (of course I don't know how the team views either player, but I know how I view them), and has real motivation to play well. I'm really happy with Theriot's performance this year, and I would prefer to see all the grit jokes stop. I don't see whats so cute and funny about making fun of hard work.

 

You could have said absolutely nothing and it would have carried an equal amount of weight in actualy tracking how well Theriot has or hasn't done.

[Amazing_Grace]

IBL

 

and I prefer Theriot's .750 OPS because most of his is OBP, where most of Cedeno's will be SLG. Point for point, OBP>SLG, and that's even more true for having a productive team than it is a productive player.

[MasterBlaster]

 

You could have said absolutely nothing and it would have carried an equal amount of weight in actualy tracking how well Theriot has or hasn't done.

 

"It's my first day"

[SouthSideRyan]

I know I shouldn't but...

 

How do we know Ryan Theriot appreciates his spot in the big leagues and tries much harder than Cedeno both during the season and in the offseason?

[CubbieBum]

I know I shouldn't but...

 

How do we know Ryan Theriot appreciates his spot in the big leagues and tries much harder than Cedeno both during the season and in the offseason?

 

By watching the games and how they act while playing and not playing. By listening to what they say.

[Sammy Sofa]

I know I shouldn't but...

 

How do we know Ryan Theriot appreciates his spot in the big leagues and tries much harder than Cedeno both during the season and in the offseason?

 

By watching the games and how they act while playing and not playing. By listening to what they say.

 

Is this serious?

[Warpticon]

And in some threads I try to injest some comedy

 

Get the liquid kind, it's easier to swallow than those pills.

[nilodnayr]

Aww, the other thread got locked...I was going to reply to the OBP comment with "guess who has the highest babip?".

 

Is Theriot producing? Yes, absolutely if I thought he is really a consistant 325/400/375 guy, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. The problem is that he is utterly and completely dependent on babip. He has hit a lot of liners and grounders so I'm not necessarily saying hes getting "lucky" now, but I am saying that he is extremely subject to luck. Bad luck and his numbers will tank. Hes got good K and BB rates, but he could really easily turn that 325/400/375 into 300/375/350 or 280/355/330 or worse with bad luck. I guess my point is that Theriots numbers are subject to a lot of fluctuation being dependent on variables he does not have control over. That makes him more risky than a normal player.

[SouthSideRyan]

To be fair, Theriot's LD% is higher this season, and the BABIP isn't that far out of line from that.

[CubbieBum]

I know I shouldn't but...

 

How do we know Ryan Theriot appreciates his spot in the big leagues and tries much harder than Cedeno both during the season and in the offseason?

 

By watching the games and how they act while playing and not playing. By listening to what they say.

 

Is this serious?

 

Not really. I don't think anyone can tell without being in the clubhouse. I will say though that Theriot seems to realize how lucky he is to be where he's at. Cedeno isn't as fun going as Theriot but that doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate where's he's at or tries less.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cedeno's not as "fun going" as Theriot because he doesn't speak English well.

[CubbieBum]

Cedeno's not as "fun going" as Theriot because he doesn't speak English well.

 

That very well may be the reason but plenty of spanish speaking guys joke around and seem to have fun all the time. Papi and Manny immediately come to mind.

[SouthSideRyan]

Cedeno's not as "fun going" as Theriot because he doesn't speak English well.

 

That very well may be the reason but plenty of spanish speaking guys joke around and seem to have fun all the time. Papi and Manny immediately come to mind.

 

Papi and Manny are huge stars who always have the spotlight on them. Ronny is a backup SS who is never going to be the guy the media goes to for a soundbite.

 

And is Theriot really a guy who jokes around and seems to have fun all the time?

[rawdog20]

master blaster couldn't put it any better, he knows what he's talking about

[Little Slide Rooter]

why did the same guy make the same thread twice?

 

http://www.northsidebaseball.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=50030

[CubbieBum]

I remember reading an interesting argument on here awhile back on Theriot vs. Cedeno. The argument was formed from the question of which player would you rather have: If both players OPS .750, do you want Theriot who has to work really really hard to obtain .750, or Cedeno who has natural talent and could possibly perform better, but for some reason doesn't utilize his talents at the MLB, yet still OPS .750?

 

I thought it was an OK question, one that heavily favored Cedeno based on potential, and also totally ignores that Cedeno had an entire season starting at the MLB level before Theriot even got a chance. I never really understood why players who have to play hard (grit) get so much flack, I mean I know that David Eckstein pretty much sucks and was on a rival team, but it shouldn't be such a shock that people in general will find attraction with players who don't have natural talent, but rather toil and grind their way into the system.

 

What I like about Theriot is that he has an appreciation for how fortunate he is to even be in MLB. Someone like Cedeno who can probably OPS .750 with half the effort (with regular playing time), IMHO, doesn't quite have that same level of understanding or care about his situation. Doesn't (or hasn't) Cedeno pretty much utilize his time with the Cubs as a giant after hours party? IIRC he's kind of a playboy out of uniform. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What does off the field activities have to do with anything? Dedication. I know, I know, dedication isn't a statistic. While I value certain statistics highly, I try to keep an opinion that bears in mind that no matter how many stats we surround ourselves with, and despite my dream of having computerized umps, the players are not robots. I honestly think some of you knowledgeable statistics guys totally forget this. They aren't robots. This of course leads to the concept of team chemistry which I know you guys hate, but I don't think it's the laughable joke many of you think it is. Anyone who's worked a real job with other individuals can tell you that work is much easier when everyone respects eachother and people get along. Players will still hate each other when the team is winning, I don't buy the argument that Wins create good chemistry. It might zip some lips for a little bit, that's all.

 

I want and respect the guy on the team that knows he has to play his hardest to succeed. IMO, Theriot sets a much better example for his teammates than Cedeno (of course I don't know how the team views either player, but I know how I view them), and has real motivation to play well. I'm really happy with Theriot's performance this year, and I would prefer to see all the grit jokes stop. I don't see whats so cute and funny about making fun of hard work.

 

Anyone who grew up playing sports and can still remmeber what it was like know chemistry is a real thing. Every year in high school the team who gelled right before sectionals won. Its just knowing how each reacts and therefore being able to predict what each will do and how to treat a teammate who is upset or struggling. I tihnk it plays a lesser role in the pro's because there is a much bigger sense of this a business but it still is there. Just about every college coach and high school coach talk about it at least once a year.

[Bobson Dugnutt]

Cedeno's not as "fun going" as Theriot because he doesn't speak English well.

 

That very well may be the reason but plenty of spanish speaking guys joke around and seem to have fun all the time. Papi and Manny immediately come to mind.

 

Papi and Manny are huge stars who always have the spotlight on them. Ronny is a backup SS who is never going to be the guy the media goes to for a soundbite.

 

And is Theriot really a guy who jokes around and seems to have fun all the time?

 

He's not the first guy that comes to mind when you think of the Cubs' resident pranksters/comedians, or the best guy to go to for an interview. But it's definitely a prevalent illusion surrounding Theriot, adding to his long list of "intangibles." Luckily, this year, he has done enough to please both the intangible-loving crowd, while being very productive and providing real value to the team, rather than just the "intangible" "little things" qualities that are ascribed to guys like him. As long as he keeps hitting and getting on base, I don't care what mythological attributes are assigned to him, be it resident comedian, lover of all things baseball, or spokesperson of the team.

[CubinNY]

I wish I never opened this thread. We need a warning label on stuff like this.

 

A skull and crossbones will do.

[fromthestretch]

Anyone who grew up playing sports and can still remmeber what it was like know chemistry is a real thing. Every year in high school the team who gelled right before sectionals won.

 

Or it could just be that someone busted out of a slump at the right time or managed to get a hit in a key situation. "Gelling" has little, if anything, to do with it. My senior year, our team had no chemistry issues. We went 21-10 that season and lost in the sectionals. It had nothing to do with chemistry.

 

Its just knowing how each reacts and therefore being able to predict what each will do and how to treat a teammate who is upset or struggling. I tihnk it plays a lesser role in the pro's because there is a much bigger sense of this a business but it still is there. Just about every college coach and high school coach talk about it at least once a year.

 

Having good team chemistry certainly doesn't hurt, but I highly doubt it has much of an effect on winning and losing, especially at the higher levels.

[nilodnayr]

To be fair, Theriot's LD% is higher this season, and the BABIP isn't that far out of line from that.

 

Hence the

He has hit a lot of liners and grounders so I'm not necessarily saying hes getting "lucky" now, but I am saying that he is extremely subject to luck.

 

Based on his LD% and GB%, hes probably pretty close to where his eBABIP is. Shandler says a true 300 hitter has at least an 86% contact rate and 11% walk rate. Theriot is pretty much there, but as I said earlier, even a dip from 325 to 300 and his numbers will go from looking great to below average.

 

Since Theriot doesn't hit for any power and doesn't have a great walk rate (he has a good walk rate), he is really dependent upon the ball falling for hits when he puts it into play. He is hitting the ball with authority right now, but he could be doing exactly the same thing next month and with a streak of semi-bad luck put up a sub 700 OPS.