7/20 Other Games

[E.J.]

"Pixie dust" and it's ilk are dumb phrases, using them shows a lack of thought put into expressing yourself or actually knowing what's going on.

 

 

That said, it's quite aggravating that everyone on the Cardinal offense save Izturis and Duncan is exceeding expectations. Pujols, Ludwick, Ankiel, Glaus, Molina, Miles, Schumaker, all of them overperforming at the same time is unreal.

 

Maybe they are just that good? Maybe the Cardinals didn't get more help during the offseason because they recognized the potential of their own players?

 

Just a thought.

 

that sounds like a Jim Hendry way of thinking, hoping that all your players have their career years at the same time.

[Ram23]

I don't see how Cubs fans can question what Schumaker is doing without questioning what Soto is doing.

[Keener98]

That's why I said IF he comes back :) He pitched a great game today in Springfield for though and has looked great in all of his rehab. Time will tell.

 

He pitched a "great" game? He had no control at all. He threw 30 strikes out of 61 pitches. If thats your definition of great, I dont know what to say. Control and stamina are 2 of the very last things pitchers coming back from TJ surgery regain. Its going to be awhile before he regains the control. Like has been said, Carp will have very little impact on the race. Also with as long as Wainwright has been out, hes going to play a very small part also. He will be on a pitch count whenever he does come back(he still hasnt started throwing from a mound yet). But hey, put these 2 in the rotation please, because anything to make your bullpen pitch more will be a favor to the Cubs and Brewers.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yeah, Carpenter wasn't very good yesterday. Walking 4 guys in 4 innings and throwing as many balls as strikes isn't all that great. Also, the lineup he was facing had 6 guys OPSing under .700 in a hitter's league.

[Keener98]

Yeah, Carpenter wasn't very good yesterday. Walking 4 guys in 4 innings and throwing as many balls as strikes isn't all that great. Also, the lineup he was facing had 6 guys OPSing under .700 in a hitter's league.

 

Not to mention his velocity topped out at 92 1 time. Other than than he was sitting between 88-91. Like I said I hope they rush him and Wainwright back because that bullepen will get even more exposed.

[Ram23]

It wasn't a bad outing for the first time back in almost a year and a half. I think he and the team would be better served by going to the bullpen this year.

[UMFan83]

It wasn't a bad outing for the first time back in almost a year and a half. I think he and the team would be better served by going to the bullpen this year.

 

Wasn't a bad outing because he didn't get hurt. Wasn't a good outing in that I doubt he will provide much contribution to the team this year.

[Ram23]

It wasn't a bad outing for the first time back in almost a year and a half. I think he and the team would be better served by going to the bullpen this year.

 

Wasn't a bad outing because he didn't get hurt. Wasn't a good outing in that I doubt he will provide much contribution to the team this year.

 

Wasn't a bad outing because his breaking pitches looked pretty good. He had trouble spotting his fast ball. I doubt he provides much contribution from the starting role this year. Bullpen could be different though.

[Keener98]

It wasn't a bad outing for the first time back in almost a year and a half. I think he and the team would be better served by going to the bullpen this year.

Right. Thats why I laughed my ass off when the other guy classified it as "great". I also agree he'd be better served in the pen this year.

[Ram23]

It wasn't a bad outing for the first time back in almost a year and a half. I think he and the team would be better served by going to the bullpen this year.

Right. Thats why I laughed my ass off when the other guy classified it as "great". I also agree he'd be better served in the pen this year.

 

They have first hand experience with this situation. In 2000 Matt Morris was coming off of the exact same surgery, and he went into the bullpen. He ended up with about 30 appearances, an ERA around 3.50 and was constantly clocked at 95-97. The next two years he started and ended up with a combined 39 wins. Don't know why they wouldn't follow this same recipe, but they probably won't.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Matt Morris was also 8 years younger than Carpenter is when he did that, and didn't have Carpenter's injury history prior to the surgery.

[Ram23]

Matt Morris was also 8 years younger than Carpenter is when he did that, and didn't have Carpenter's injury history prior to the surgery.

 

And how does this have anything to do with him going to the bullpen?

[Ram23]

Matt Morris was also 8 years younger than Carpenter is when he did that, and didn't have Carpenter's injury history prior to the surgery.

 

BTW: I notice you are from Columbia. Are you heading to St. Louis for the Mizzou-Illini game? I ordered my tickets about a month ago since I am a season ticket holder to Mizzou, but haven't heard where my seats are yet.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Matt Morris was also 8 years younger than Carpenter is when he did that, and didn't have Carpenter's injury history prior to the surgery.

 

And how does this have anything to do with him going to the bullpen?

 

It has quite a bit to do with his effectiveness and bounceback from rehab compared to Carpenter.

 

EDIT: And yes, I'll be at the Arch Rivalry again this year. I'm a student, so I imagine they'll line the top of the stadium with the students again and not really care about our exact seats are. It should be much better attended this year though, so who knows.

[Ram23]

Matt Morris was also 8 years younger than Carpenter is when he did that, and didn't have Carpenter's injury history prior to the surgery.

 

And how does this have anything to do with him going to the bullpen?

 

It has quite a bit to do with his effectiveness and bounceback from rehab compared to Carpenter.

 

EDIT: And yes, I'll be at the Arch Rivalry again this year.

 

I wasn't saying that they would have the same effectiveness, only that they should follow that same recipe. It lets the pitcher compete without having to worry about a pitch count.

[VanceJergins]

I don't see how Cubs fans can question what Schumaker is doing without questioning what Soto is doing.

 

Theriot is a much much better comparison. Soto figured it out at age 24, which isn't uncommon for a catcher and he was the MVP of his league his last year in the minors. Schumaker was a crappy minor leaguer until the age of 27 and even then didn't have near the success that Soto did.

 

I'm very surprised at how well Theriot is doing, but that's one guy compared to the majority of your team.

[Ram23]

I don't see how Cubs fans can question what Schumaker is doing without questioning what Soto is doing.

 

Theriot is a much much better comparison. Soto figured it out at age 24, which isn't uncommon for a catcher and he was the MVP of his league his last year in the minors. Schumaker was a crappy minor leaguer until the age of 27 and even then didn't have near the success that Soto did.

 

I'm very surprised at how well Theriot is doing, but that's one guy compared to the majority of your team.

 

I disagree. I'm not really sure what you consider crappy and success to mean in this instance. First, the reason I compared the two was because both were taken in the 2001 draft and both are in their first full season in the majors (although Schumaker played in 90 games last year). In the minors Schumaker had a .290 average and a .729 OPS. I wouldn't call those great, but I wouldn't call it crappy. Soto on the other hand had a .270 average and a .786 OPS. You can't say one player is crappy and one is a success based on those numbers. Schumaker had no power, Soto had average power.

 

Fast forward to this year, Schumaker has a .783 OPS, and Soto has a .866 OPS. Both have seen an increase in their OPS with Soto having the bigger jump and showing more power in the majors. Schumaker is playing closer to his minor league numbers, and is actually playing worse than last year. I just don't see how you can claim Schumaker is overachieving while ignoring what Soto is doing. Both are probably playing at the level they will for the next 4 or 5 years at least.

[VanceJergins]

I don't see how Cubs fans can question what Schumaker is doing without questioning what Soto is doing.

 

Theriot is a much much better comparison. Soto figured it out at age 24, which isn't uncommon for a catcher and he was the MVP of his league his last year in the minors. Schumaker was a crappy minor leaguer until the age of 27 and even then didn't have near the success that Soto did.

 

I'm very surprised at how well Theriot is doing, but that's one guy compared to the majority of your team.

 

I disagree. I'm not really sure what you consider crappy and success to mean in this instance. First, the reason I compared the two was because both were taken in the 2001 draft and both are in their first full season in the majors (although Schumaker played in 90 games last year). In the minors Schumaker had a .290 average and a .729 OPS. I wouldn't call those great, but I wouldn't call it crappy. Soto on the other hand had a .270 average and a .786 OPS. You can't say one player is crappy and one is a success based on those numbers. Schumaker had no power, Soto had average power.

 

Fast forward to this year, Schumaker has a .783 OPS, and Soto has a .866 OPS. Both have seen an increase in their OPS with Soto having the bigger jump and showing more power in the majors. Schumaker is playing closer to his minor league numbers, and is actually playing worse than last year. I just don't see how you can claim Schumaker is overachieving while ignoring what Soto is doing. Both are probably playing at the level they will for the next 4 or 5 years at least.

 

So, Soto was 3 years younger and had .57 higher OPS in the minors, but you can't say that Soto was better? And like I said, its not uncommon for catchers to find their bat a bit later, and Soto had a .652 SLG with 26 home runs at age 24 in AAA. So he had power. At age 24, Schumaker put up a .808 OPS in AA. So at a lower level, Schumaker's OPS was .268 lower than Soto's at the same age. They are not comparable players.

[Ram23]

I don't see how Cubs fans can question what Schumaker is doing without questioning what Soto is doing.

 

Theriot is a much much better comparison. Soto figured it out at age 24, which isn't uncommon for a catcher and he was the MVP of his league his last year in the minors. Schumaker was a crappy minor leaguer until the age of 27 and even then didn't have near the success that Soto did.

 

I'm very surprised at how well Theriot is doing, but that's one guy compared to the majority of your team.

 

I disagree. I'm not really sure what you consider crappy and success to mean in this instance. First, the reason I compared the two was because both were taken in the 2001 draft and both are in their first full season in the majors (although Schumaker played in 90 games last year). In the minors Schumaker had a .290 average and a .729 OPS. I wouldn't call those great, but I wouldn't call it crappy. Soto on the other hand had a .270 average and a .786 OPS. You can't say one player is crappy and one is a success based on those numbers. Schumaker had no power, Soto had average power.

 

Fast forward to this year, Schumaker has a .783 OPS, and Soto has a .866 OPS. Both have seen an increase in their OPS with Soto having the bigger jump and showing more power in the majors. Schumaker is playing closer to his minor league numbers, and is actually playing worse than last year. I just don't see how you can claim Schumaker is overachieving while ignoring what Soto is doing. Both are probably playing at the level they will for the next 4 or 5 years at least.

 

So, Soto was 3 years younger and had .57 higher OPS in the minors, but you can't say that Soto was better? And like I said, its not uncommon for catchers to find their bat a bit later, and Soto had a .652 SLG with 26 home runs at age 24 in AAA. So he had power. At age 24, Schumaker put up a .808 OPS in AA. So at a lower level, Schumaker's OPS was .268 lower than Soto's at the same age. They are not comparable players.

 

It's quite obvious you didn't read any of what I wrote. I never was comparing them to say who the better player was. I never even said that Schumaker was the better player. I was comparing them to show that they both entered the minors at the same time, they both entered the majors at basically the same time, and they both were peforming better in the majors than they did in the minors, although Schumaker is performing closer to his minor league numbers than Soto is. So how can you say Schumaker is overachieving and Soto isn't?

 

Ok, forget about Soto. If Schumaker is overacheiving, then what is it compared to? Can't be compared to anything he has done in the majors because last year was his first extensive stay. Can't be what he did in the minors because I've already shown that he's performing close to those numbers. So what is it compared to?

 

I'll let you have the last word, because this debate really should be in the general discussion section.

[VanceJergins]

You can't just take Soto's overall minor league numbers. He had a break out season at age 24, which is not uncommon for catchers. He OPS'ed 1.076. This year he is OPS'ing .866, over .200 lower than his break out minor league season. Schumaker didn't have a breakout minor league season, he was extremely mediocre his entire minor league career. Do you seriously not see a difference? There are 3 years and a whole lot of production in between them.

[RedVerbs]

If Chicago's lineup is easy to pitch to, you could pitch to St. Louis' with your eyes closed. If Chicago's bullpen is suspect, I don't even know how to describe St. Louis'.

 

Who said they weren't? Both can easily be pitched to, imo. Neither team is full of world class hitters. One team has the best hitter in baseball though, the other has 3 really good hitters, career wise, when healthy (Ramirez, Lee, Soriano), the other has the best hitter (Pujols), and another good one (Glaus). The Cardinals clearly have more power in the middle of the order, the Cubs are much better top to bottom. Neither team is world beaters. Cubs are better overall lineup. Cardinals bullpen is awful, the Cubs is all right, but it's not like you have anything that stable yourself.

 

You say that the talent levels between the three teams is minimal, which isn't true -- the difference between the three teams' records is minimal, but the Cubs have the most proven talent of the three, and it's really not that close.

 

Agree to disagree. I don't see the margin in talent being significant. Cubs are better, but nothing dramatic.

 

 

The Cubs are the best team in the National League from top to bottom, and I don't have much of a problem admitting that. I don't know why Cardinals fans -- the self-proclaimed best fans on the planet -- have such a hard time doing that. You can say it's because of the rivalry, but I don't see many Yankees fans saying "Nothing about the Red Sox is scary. You can easily pitch to Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz. That bullpen's a joke."

 

Who has had a problem admitting this? The Cubs have the best team overall, in a weak league. Congrats. Last year they won 86 games, and got bumped in 3 games. The team added Fukodome who has fallen off the planet, and added a few good pieces, so they are a 92+ win team on paper and probably on the field. Still nothing that's not impossible to surpass is all I'm saying. The Cubs have a good team. Better than anyone in the NL and most of the AL as well. But the parity in the game is at it's peak. The difference between the best team and the 15th best team isn't even that huge.

 

 

If I was a Cards fan, I'd be more worried about fighting off the Brewers than chasing the Cubs. This upcoming 4-game series is going to be huge -- if either team gets swept, it's going to be a big blow.

 

It's not even August yet.

[jersey cubs fan]

Agree to disagree. I don't see the margin in talent being significant. Cubs are better, but nothing dramatic. .

 

The Cubs have outscored their opponents by 111 runs, the widest margin, by far, in MLB. The Cardinals and Brewers have outscored opponents by 33 and 27 runs, nice, but good for 8th and 12th in baseball. The Cubs are pretty clearly the most talented team, by a significant margin. They have the highest Runs scored in the NL and highest OPS, with the 2nd best ERA and best BAA. Neither Brewers nor the Cardinals are capable of matching up in both the pitching and hitting categories.

[E.J.]

I agree with a lot that you say RedVerbs, but I also think that adding Harden to the rotation helps immensely. The Cardinals rotation can't be said to be good whatsoever. You might add Carpenter, but I don't see him being the same Carp after coming back from major surgery, at least this year.

 

The Cubs also lead the National League in runs scored and have one of the best rotations which is made even better with the addition of Harden. The Cubs are the best team in a crappy National League this year, but it's been shown that the playoffs are a crapshoot (see Cardinals a couple years ago), so as long as the Cubs make it to the playoffs, they have a chance to win it all.

 

I think the Cardinals offense will come back to earth and the rotation is going to crumble. If I were a Cardinal fan, I'd hope for a nice addition in the rotation and the bullpen before the trading deadline passes.

[Andy]

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I imagined that snippet I remember hearing an announcer (may have been McLaughlin or it may have been a Fox game) say about Skippy Schumaker working out with McGwire in the offseason back in April. Because I'm pretty sure I heard it and yet absolutely nothing has been made of it, if it is true. If a Cub spent the off-season working out with Sosa and then saw an increase in production, no matter how slight, I suspect it'd be a big deal.

 

Does anyone else remember this being said, or am I crazy?

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

I'm seriously beginning to wonder if I imagined that snippet I remember hearing an announcer (may have been McLaughlin or it may have been a Fox game) say about Skippy Schumaker working out with McGwire in the offseason back in April. Because I'm pretty sure I heard it and yet absolutely nothing has been made of it, if it is true. If a Cub spent the off-season working out with Sosa and then saw an increase in production, no matter how slight, I suspect it'd be a big deal.

 

Does anyone else remember this being said, or am I crazy?

 

It was a FOX game. McGwire has been helping out a number of players such as Schumacher. He wants to get into coaching, but knows that the time is not now. So, he is going to take the personal instructor approach until/if he is welcomed back.

 

I can't remember it was either Kirkjian or Buster Olney who I heard mention this.