How many third basemen are better than Aramis Ramirez?

[CubbieBum]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

 

EqA

 

Wright:

 

.313

.311

.337

.300

 

ARam:

 

.301

.295

.300

.315

 

One major flaw of OPS is the equal weight in OBP and SLG. Wright's huge advantage in OBP and the fact that he steals bases so effectively, esp the last 2 years, shifts the balance significantly in his favor. I don't know what the OP meant by "better" - who is better this season, who has been better, who would you rather have for the next year, next 5 years, next 10 years. But the answer to almost all of those questions (except who's been better this year) is Wright.

 

Actually the answer to all but the next 10 years is Arod (he will play most likely just as well as Wright if not a little better and from an owners standpoint will make you loads as he chases the record)

[GoCrazy]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

 

He was also younger than 25 for most of his pre cub career.

 

With these arguements, like CoolHandLuke already said, Wright has a large advantage over Ramirez considering his age. If the OP was leaning towards the question of who would you take if you were building a team today, and wanted an elite offensive 3b who could help you win this year, next year, and so on, I would think Wright would have to get the nod over Ramirez.

[Tracer Bullet]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

 

EqA

 

Wright:

 

.313

.311

.337

.300

 

ARam:

 

.301

.295

.300

.315

 

One major flaw of OPS is the equal weight in OBP and SLG. Wright's huge advantage in OBP and the fact that he steals bases so effectively, esp the last 2 years, shifts the balance significantly in his favor. I don't know what the OP meant by "better" - who is better this season, who has been better, who would you rather have for the next year, next 5 years, next 10 years. But the answer to almost all of those questions (except who's been better this year) is Wright.

 

Actually the answer to all but the next 10 years is Arod (he will play most likely just as well as Wright if not a little better and from an owners standpoint will make you loads as he chases the record)

 

Um, if the question, as it was pretty clear set from the exchange quoted, is ARam or Wright, the answer actually isn't ARod.

[XZero771679666304]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

 

He was also younger than 25 for most of his pre cub career.

 

With these arguements, like CoolHandLuke already said, Wright has a large advantage over Ramirez considering his age. If the OP was leaning towards the question of who would you take if you were building a team today, and wanted an elite offensive 3b who could help you win this year, next year, and so on, I would think Wright would have to get the nod over Ramirez.

 

I would take Wright over Ramirez, but I don't think saying he has been significantly better than Aramis over the past 3+ seasons is accurate.

[GoCrazy]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

 

He was also younger than 25 for most of his pre cub career.

 

With these arguements, like CoolHandLuke already said, Wright has a large advantage over Ramirez considering his age. If the OP was leaning towards the question of who would you take if you were building a team today, and wanted an elite offensive 3b who could help you win this year, next year, and so on, I would think Wright would have to get the nod over Ramirez.

 

I would take Wright over Ramirez, but I don't think saying he has been significantly better than Aramis over the past 3+ seasons is accurate.

 

True, a discussion like this without more direction is like having someone give you a weather forecast without telling you the location. Kinda. Weird relation, I know.

 

You can say though, that given how Wright has started his career and how long it took Ramirez to get to the point he is now, that Wright won't have just a slight advantage in career totals, but will end up with a significantly better career than Ramirez.

[XZero771679666304]

 

 

You can say though, that given how Wright has started his career and how long it took Ramirez to get to the point he is now, that Wright won't have just a slight advantage in career totals, but will end up with a significantly better career than Ramirez.

 

I think that is very likely, but not a given. I also think we might see a career year from Aramis this season, being that his second half OPS is over 100 points higher than his first half OPS over the past 3 years, and how his new OBP friendly approach has improved his game.

[Soul]

 

 

You can say though, that given how Wright has started his career and how long it took Ramirez to get to the point he is now, that Wright won't have just a slight advantage in career totals, but will end up with a significantly better career than Ramirez.

 

I think that is very likely, but not a given. I also think we might see a career year from Aramis this season, being that his second half OPS is over 100 points higher than his first half OPS over the past 3 years, and how his new OBP friendly approach has improved his game.

 

Maybe it's not a career year. Maybe ARam was saddled with Dusty's crappy hitting approach and will now take off for the next 3 years.

 

Don't wake me up or I'll punch you :D

[Derwood]

Not fair to compare Chipper's career to those who spent their entire careers as 3B. Chipper has 1500 games at 3B, plus over 750 at other positions.

[TruffleShuffle]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

 

EqA

 

Wright:

 

.313

.311

.337

.300

 

ARam:

 

.301

.295

.300

.315

 

One major flaw of OPS is the equal weight in OBP and SLG. Wright's huge advantage in OBP and the fact that he steals bases so effectively, esp the last 2 years, shifts the balance significantly in his favor. I don't know what the OP meant by "better" - who is better this season, who has been better, who would you rather have for the next year, next 5 years, next 10 years. But the answer to almost all of those questions (except who's been better this year) is Wright.

 

thank you. OPS is not a great stat to use to compare the offensive value of two players. you also have to take into account that shea is a pitcher's park, whereas wrigley is a hitter's park.

 

if ARam's patience has indeed made a Great Leap Forward, then they're pretty darn close as far as value. but overall i'd have to give the edge to wright, which is no big insult to ARam.

 

one interesting question to ask is, what are ARam's chances at making the Hall of Fame?

[Tracer Bullet]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

 

EqA

 

Wright:

 

.313

.311

.337

.300

 

ARam:

 

.301

.295

.300

.315

 

One major flaw of OPS is the equal weight in OBP and SLG. Wright's huge advantage in OBP and the fact that he steals bases so effectively, esp the last 2 years, shifts the balance significantly in his favor. I don't know what the OP meant by "better" - who is better this season, who has been better, who would you rather have for the next year, next 5 years, next 10 years. But the answer to almost all of those questions (except who's been better this year) is Wright.

 

thank you. OPS is not a great stat to use to compare the offensive value of two players. you also have to take into account that shea is a pitcher's park, whereas wrigley is a hitter's park.

 

if ARam's patience has indeed made a Great Leap Forward, then they're pretty darn close as far as value. but overall i'd have to give the edge to wright, which is no big insult to ARam.

 

one interesting question to ask is, what are ARam's chances at making the Hall of Fame?

 

ARam's going to need several more very good years to get to the Hall, I think. A few great post-season performances would probably help in the voters' eyes.

[CoolHandLuke]

Not fair to compare Chipper's career to those who spent their entire careers as 3B. Chipper has 1500 games at 3B, plus over 750 at other positions.

 

He only has about 400 games at other positions. In the BR fielding section they list stats as an OF as well as stats as a LF, RF or CF. The point still stands, just not to the same extent.

[NCCubFan]

Maybe it's not a career year. Maybe ARam was saddled with Dusty's crappy hitting approach and will now take off for the next 3 years.

I don't think that's necessarily far-fetched. I think the Cubs as a whole just needed one year under Piniella and Perry to shake off the Dust, and this year's the payoff.

[inari]

Maybe it's not a career year. Maybe ARam was saddled with Dusty's crappy hitting approach and will now take off for the next 3 years.

I don't think that's necessarily far-fetched. I think the Cubs as a whole just needed one year under Piniella and Perry to shake off the Dust, and this year's the payoff.

 

I'd be curious to know how much Dusty's Giants teams walked (other than Bonds).

[XZero771679666304]

Maybe it's not a career year. Maybe ARam was saddled with Dusty's crappy hitting approach and will now take off for the next 3 years.

I don't think that's necessarily far-fetched. I think the Cubs as a whole just needed one year under Piniella and Perry to shake off the Dust, and this year's the payoff.

 

I'd be curious to know how much Dusty's Giants teams walked (other than Bonds).

 

Well, they lead the NL in walks in 2000, were second in 2001, and 14th in 2002. Strangely enough, the more Bonds walked (his walks increased each year), the fewer the rest of the team took. By 2002, Bonds walks comprised 1/3 of the team total, whereas is had been about 1/7 in 2000.

[rawaction]

I see I sparked a lot of conversation. And I actually meant that Wright was slightly better than Ramirez offensively. I do think Aramis is the better defender, though. Wright has more range, a better arm, but I think Aramis' hands and footwork are much better.

[inari]

I see I sparked a lot of conversation. And I actually meant that Wright was slightly better than Ramirez offensively. I do think Aramis is the better defender, though. Wright has more range, a better arm, but I think Aramis' hands and footwork are much better.

 

But Wright has a gold glove.

[XZero771679666304]

I see I sparked a lot of conversation. And I actually meant that Wright was slightly better than Ramirez offensively. I do think Aramis is the better defender, though. Wright has more range, a better arm, but I think Aramis' hands and footwork are much better.

 

But Wright has a gold glove.

 

Winner! And you can bet he'll win it again this year.

 

Wright is not as good a defender, IMO. He has a penchant for the spectacular, but isn't as steady as Aramis.

[rawaction]

I see I sparked a lot of conversation. And I actually meant that Wright was slightly better than Ramirez offensively. I do think Aramis is the better defender, though. Wright has more range, a better arm, but I think Aramis' hands and footwork are much better.

 

But Wright has a gold glove.

 

I know it's about as important as batting average, but David Wright had 21 errors last year and a .954 fielding pct. Aramis' error totals and fielding pct, as a Cub, has been much better than anything Wright has done.

[OleMissCub]

If Wright played for Arizona, for example, the gold glove probably would have gone to Aramis last year.

[Productive Outs]

if you like WARP3, Ramirez hasn't touched Wright.

 

David Wright:

 

2005: 10.1

2006: 10.2

2007: 14.2

 

Aramis Ramirez

2005: 4.9

2006: 6.9

2007: 9.7

 

WARP is a counting stat, but still, Wright has been far better. then again, this is WARP3, which isn't the end-all be-all by any means. that being said, I think Wright is the better player right now.

Edited June 24, 2008 by Productive Outs

[Brett]

if you like WARP3, Ramirez hasn't touched Wright.

 

David Wright:

 

2005:10.1

2006:10.2

2007:14.2

 

Aramis Ramirez

2005:4.9

2006:6.9

2007:9.7

 

WARP is a counting stat, but still, Wright has been far better. then again, this is WARP3, which isn't the end-all be-all by any means. that being said, I think Wright is the better player right now.

 

WARP3 sounds like a very fast stat.

[haltz]

The only 3rd basemen in history that rate higher than Chipper are Schmidt, Brett, Mathews, Boggs, Santo, Robinson & Evans.

Is this according to WARP3? The DT fielding numbers despise Chipper Jones, which is why he has a similar career value to Scott Rolen according to that metric.

 

UZR has him at +15 from 2003-2007 (3B only). Totalzone says -18 for his career. FRAA? -174! He's no gold glover, but please.

 

As for hitting, here's the OPS+ leaderboard for 8,000 PA and 60% (to include Brett) at 3B. George Brett played about 1,000 games at non-3B positions. Mainly 1B and DH.

 

He hasn't hit his decline phase yet, but right now his (adjusted for all-time) EqA is #1 among third baseman, edging out Schmidt and Mathews by percentage points. His HOF worthiness is a no-brainer.

[TruffleShuffle]

WARP3 is good in that it takes defense into account, but the defensive metric (FRAA) appears shaky to me. ARam was supposedly 22 runs above average last year but is at 0 this year, but to me he's been pretty much as good this year as he was last year.

[Clem Fandango]

It's been touched upon, but never pointed out...

 

How many third basemen in the majors have had an OPS of .900 or higher each year since 2004?

 

One: Aramis Ramirez.

 

I know there was the debate about how OPS in inaccurate to conclude who is more valuable, but that stat still makes me smile

[Coach C]

Honestly, I really don't give a rip who's better than Aramis. I'm just very happy that the Cubs finally got a decent 3rd baseman after all those years after Santo.