How many third basemen are better than Aramis Ramirez?

[inari]

Atkins isn't even close, and he's only a year younger than Rammy.

 

Close is relative I suppose. Since '06 Atkins has been a little low on slugging, but in '06 he bested Ramirez in pretty much every relevant offensive category. This year isn't looking much better for him, but he's shown the ability to put up those kind of numbers. In '07 he bettered him in RBI and Runs, about the only category he was low in was slugging.

 

'06 is the only year he's been close. The fact that Atkins sometimes has higher totals for irrelevant statistics like RBIs and runs doesn't change that.

[javy knows my name]

Atkins isn't even close, and he's only a year younger than Rammy.

 

Close is relative I suppose. Since '06 Atkins has been a little low on slugging, but in '06 he bested Ramirez in pretty much every relevant offensive category. This year isn't looking much better for him, but he's shown the ability to put up those kind of numbers. In '07 he bettered him in RBI and Runs, about the only category he was low in was slugging.

Low in slugging, playing half his games in Coors. Tomy's right, it's not close.

[SouthSideRyan]

Here's a list of 3B who are pretty easily in the same league as Aramis:

 

Chipper (getting older)

ARod (obviously)

Wright (IMO the best 3B out there, 34 steals in 07 adds to his already impressive offense and defense)

 

And a couple young guys who have had seasons better than Aramis and could end up at least as effective if not more so on offense:

 

Braun

Atkins

 

Not that Aramis is a slouch, but 3B is pretty decent on talent right now, especially in the NL.

 

 

Braun isn't a 3B anymore.

 

He never was.

[Tracer Bullet]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

[GoCrazy]

'06 is the only year he's been close. The fact that Atkins sometimes has higher totals for irrelevant statistics like RBIs and runs doesn't change that.

 

I was including those because someone mentioned his RBI total over the last 3 years. If we're talking strictly SLG and OPS (which of course are relevant) Aramis is right up there with Chipper, ARod, and Wright as the most consistent over the last 3-4 years. Atkins would be a teir lower in that category. Though if I was starting a team today, I'd be happy with either of the 4.

[XZero771679666304]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Really, last season has been the only one where it wasn't very close.

[GoCrazy]

Here's a list of 3B who are pretty easily in the same league as Aramis:

 

Chipper (getting older)

ARod (obviously)

Wright (IMO the best 3B out there, 34 steals in 07 adds to his already impressive offense and defense)

 

And a couple young guys who have had seasons better than Aramis and could end up at least as effective if not more so on offense:

 

Braun

Atkins

 

Not that Aramis is a slouch, but 3B is pretty decent on talent right now, especially in the NL.

 

 

Braun isn't a 3B anymore.

 

He never was.

 

Well, skill aside :) He had a pretty good year for a rookie 3b last year, but his slump this year, even without the position change, would leave him below Ramirez. His SLG is still there but his OBP is far too low.

[Roast]

Here's a list of 3B who are pretty easily in the same league as Aramis:

 

Chipper (getting older)

ARod (obviously)

Wright (IMO the best 3B out there, 34 steals in 07 adds to his already impressive offense and defense)

 

And a couple young guys who have had seasons better than Aramis and could end up at least as effective if not more so on offense:

 

Braun

Atkins

 

Not that Aramis is a slouch, but 3B is pretty decent on talent right now, especially in the NL.

 

 

Braun isn't a 3B anymore.

 

He never was.

 

Well, skill aside :) He had a pretty good year for a rookie 3b last year, but his slump this year, even without the position change, would leave him below Ramirez. His SLG is still there but his OBP is far too low.

Well, plus, if we're talking about best 3b, we should consider defense too. After a horrendous start to his career, Aram is pretty studly out there most of the time.

[swordsman]

Atkins isn't even close, and he's only a year younger than Rammy.

 

Close is relative I suppose. Since '06 Atkins has been a little low on slugging, but in '06 he bested Ramirez in pretty much every relevant offensive category. This year isn't looking much better for him, but he's shown the ability to put up those kind of numbers. In '07 he bettered him in RBI and Runs, about the only category he was low in was slugging.

 

Indeed, by definition in fact.

[VanceJergins]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

[carolinacubbie]

AROD definitely.

 

After that, I think you could make a case for Aramis against just about anyone else. Even Chipper Jones. Jones has had in his career a much much better OBP, but I will say I think that is something that Ramirez has really been working on increasing his OBP this year to .404. Aramis hits much more home runs and drives in more runs. Over the last six years Jones has the advantage in average, but if you look at 03-06 it really is a toss up in average. Ramirez probably has the advantage considering Jones hit .248 in 2004. From 03-06 slugging percentage is pretty much a toss up as well. As good as Aramis' numbers have been this year, .299/.404/.530/.934 with 14 home runs, 53 RBIs, and 52 runs scored, I still think his average, OBP, and slugging will all increase over the summer. Aramis loves playing in the warm weather, and it just starting to heat up just like Ramirez is just starting to heat up. Plus, his glove has gotten so much better over the last three years that he is a legit top 5 defensive third baseman in the MLB now.

[XZero771679666304]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

 

 

Well, Wright was better last season for sure. Other than that, their OPS and OPS+ have been very similar from 2005 on.

[BigbadB]

Josh Vitters

[GoCrazy]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I don't know how good Wright is defensively

he's pretty good. I think Aramis has the advantage over him this season, but he's been better in the past and likely will be in the future.

 

he's still got a bit to go offensively, but honorable mention goes to Evan Longoria

[Jehrico]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

I don't think it was Wrigley. He had an excellent year for Pitt when he was 22-23 (2001). The book got out on him and he was slow to adjust the next year. We picked him up late the next year after he had turned 25. I think he just matured and hit his prime years, and would have been good no matter where he was. As far as his home/away splits go, he was actually considerably better on the road in 2005, a little better in 2006, then changed to better at home in 2007. The phenomenom of his splits being better at home has only held true for a season and a half now.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Jehrico

[XZero771679666304]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

[CoolHandLuke]

Aramis and Wright are so close offensively and defensively that the main reason I'd take Wright is the 5 years he has on Ramirez.

 

Chipper is a hall of famer and he has been quite a bit better than either of them over the last few years when healthy.

 

How about the hybrid Bill Hall/Russ Branyan super third baseman? Pretty funny platoon, but Hall v. LHP and Branyan v. RHP has been pretty great this year.

.358/.440/.767 .1207 <-------hall/branyan's combined platoon numbers this year.

[GoCrazy]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

[woodchip2153]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

I don't think it was Wrigley. He had an excellent year for Pitt when he was 22-23 (2001). The book got out on him and he was slow to adjust the next year. We picked him up late the next year after he had turned 25. I think he just matured and hit his prime years, and would have been good no matter where he was. As far as his home/away splits go, he was actually considerably better on the road in 2005, a little better in 2006, then changed to better at home in 2007. The phenomenom of his splits being better at home has only held true for a season and a half now.

 

I believe was also playing on a bad ankle during his off year, too.

[CubbieBum]

ARod is king

 

Wright, ARam, and Chipper are the princes (really depends on what you want on who you pick out of those and age doesn't factor in because we are talking about who is better not who is the best to build around)

 

everyone else is the jesters

[Tracer Bullet]

Wright's OPS+ this year is 124, where ARam's is 141.

 

Chipper's is off-the-charts ridiculous, 196!

 

Look beyond the last 3 months. Wright's significantly better (than ARam) in each of the last 3 seasons. I still don't see how anyone can say they are "close."

 

Wright:

05: .912

06: .912

07: .963

08: .841

 

Ramirez:

05: .926

06: .912

07: .915

08: .934

 

I'd say they're extremely close offensively. I'd call it a wash. I don't know how good Wright is defensively, but if Aramis is better like people are saying, then I'd give the nod to him for overall better 3B.

 

EqA

 

Wright:

 

.313

.311

.337

.300

 

ARam:

 

.301

.295

.300

.315

 

One major flaw of OPS is the equal weight in OBP and SLG. Wright's huge advantage in OBP and the fact that he steals bases so effectively, esp the last 2 years, shifts the balance significantly in his favor. I don't know what the OP meant by "better" - who is better this season, who has been better, who would you rather have for the next year, next 5 years, next 10 years. But the answer to almost all of those questions (except who's been better this year) is Wright.

[CoolHandLuke]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

 

He was also younger than 25 for most of his pre cub career.

[Jehrico]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

We got him when he was 24. He only had two seasons with over 300 at bats as he was just breaking into the league. He already had an .800 OPS season is a better way to look at it. Most players don't even get regular playing time until they're 24-25. Saying he only had one season with an OPS over .800 before he was 24 years old is kind of like bashing the Marlins organization in 1998 for only having one championship in their history.

Edited June 23, 2008 by Jehrico

[XZero771679666304]

I think the biggest thing that turned Ramirez around was Wrigley field. He seems to have been built for that ballpark. He wasn't close to the hitter he is now before he went to the Cubs, and his home/away split difference seems to be rather large.

 

I think the fact that he entered his prime in over the past 2-3 years has more to do with it, especially since his home/away splits over that time are very similar.

 

Yeah, could be. But he only had one season of +.800 OPS before the Cubs, and since he's been there he's never been below .912

 

He was also very young, and played hurt for the Pirates after his .886 in 2001. Plus the lineup protection he has gotten with the Cubs hasn't hurt, but I think it's natural progression. As I said, he has performed just as well on the road for almost all of his Cubs tenure.

 

People also tried to make the Wrigley case with Sammy Sosa, but failed to noticed his home/road splits were identical during his prime.