i think marmol is broken, you guys

[RynoRules]

He had good movement and velocity but couldn't find the strikezone. He'll have at least 5 days off now - its not a big deal.

[CubsGM]

bump

Why? At least add something of value (I know that's incredibly difficult for you, specifically) rather than just saying "bump."

Fine. 5 run 9th.

[NCCubFan]

He had good movement and velocity but couldn't find the strikezone. He'll have at least 5 days off now - its not a big deal.

It is a big deal when Lou unforgiveably leaves him in to blow what should have been an insurmountable lead. It is a big deal when this is just the latest of several horrible outings as opposed to the occasional stinker that everyone has.

[rocket]

it's starting to become a big deal

[killthegoat06]

FUENTES.?

[Jon]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

[CubbieBum]

Official petition to change thread title to I know Marmol is broken, you guys ...

[Soul]

Carlos should not pitch for the Cubs again until it can be definitively understood what is wrong with him, and fixed.

 

Discuss.

 

 

 

 

Seriously -- if it's an injury 5 days off won't help. I think there's a chance there is an injury. Not a huge chance, but why take a chance with a young pitcher's arm? Marshall can be the 8th inning guy until Marmol is ready again, we'll be fine.

[Guest]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

 

No.

 

He's broken.

[NCCubFan]

Carlos should not pitch for the Cubs again until it can be definitively understood what is wrong with him, and fixed.

 

Discuss.

 

 

 

 

Seriously -- if it's an injury 5 days off won't help. I think there's a chance there is an injury. Not a huge chance, but why take a chance with a young pitcher's arm? Marshall can be the 8th inning guy until Marmol is ready again, we'll be fine.

IF it's an injury I agree five days off won't be enough. If it's fatigue it might be. If it's mechanical he needs to either pitch in mopup duty or else go down to Iowa until he rights himself. They really need to figure out the problem before they can determine what the solution is.

[RynoRules]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

 

No.

 

He's broken.

 

Responding to you and NC, I respectfully disagree. He didn't have it today and has been inconsistent of late. He has not been getting hit hard for the most part. The problem isn't that he is broken, its that Lou left him out there too long today.

[Soul]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

 

No.

 

He's broken.

 

Responding to you and NC, I respectfully disagree. He didn't have it today and has been inconsistent of late. He has not been getting hit hard for the most part. The problem isn't that he is broken, its that Lou left him out there too long today.

 

Go back and watch the replays of the hits he gave up today. Hanging slider after hanging slider.

 

Maybe he's not injured or whatever, but his slider is most definitely broken and he won't be successful unless he regains the movement he used to have on it.

 

He has zero command of his fastball right now too, which just makes things worse. The velocity is still alright from my perspective though. I'm not sure what to make of a fastball that maintains velocity but no control -- loss of confidence, perhaps? Changed arm angle?

 

Either way, I respectfully disagree with you. He's broken right now.

[Guest]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

 

No.

 

He's broken.

 

Responding to you and NC, I respectfully disagree. He didn't have it today and has been inconsistent of late. He has not been getting hit hard for the most part. The problem isn't that he is broken, its that Lou left him out there too long today.

 

I'm being extremely facetious. Given the description of today's game (didn't watch) plus watching his previous games, it's that he doesn't have the best command (and at times, control). Not that he's "broken."

[Guest]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

 

No.

 

He's broken.

 

Responding to you and NC, I respectfully disagree. He didn't have it today and has been inconsistent of late. He has not been getting hit hard for the most part. The problem isn't that he is broken, its that Lou left him out there too long today.

 

Go back and watch the replays of the hits he gave up today. Hanging slider after hanging slider.

 

Maybe he's not injured or whatever, but his slider is most definitely broken and he won't be successful unless he regains the movement he used to have on it.

 

He has zero command of his fastball right now too, which just makes things worse. The velocity is still alright from my perspective though. I'm not sure what to make of a fastball that maintains velocity but no control -- loss of confidence, perhaps? Changed arm angle?

 

Either way, I respectfully disagree with you. He's broken right now.

 

He's had control problems in the past.

[Soul]

It's not the same issue. He's not getting hit hard, but he hasn't had command for the 2nd game in a row. In his 8 previous outings before his last one, he walked 2 and hit 1 over 6.1 IP. When he's been in the zone recently, they haven't done a whole lot.

 

No.

 

He's broken.

 

Responding to you and NC, I respectfully disagree. He didn't have it today and has been inconsistent of late. He has not been getting hit hard for the most part. The problem isn't that he is broken, its that Lou left him out there too long today.

 

Go back and watch the replays of the hits he gave up today. Hanging slider after hanging slider.

 

Maybe he's not injured or whatever, but his slider is most definitely broken and he won't be successful unless he regains the movement he used to have on it.

 

He has zero command of his fastball right now too, which just makes things worse. The velocity is still alright from my perspective though. I'm not sure what to make of a fastball that maintains velocity but no control -- loss of confidence, perhaps? Changed arm angle?

 

Either way, I respectfully disagree with you. He's broken right now.

 

He's had control problems in the past.

 

Well, what's your definition of broken then? I'm not saying he can't regain his form.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

A large segment of NSBB has taken a good understanding of sample sizes and variance and turned it into an excuse to never believe anything is wrong with anybody.

[Guest]

A large segment of NSBB has taken a good understanding of sample sizes and variance and turned it into an excuse to never believe anything is wrong with anybody.

 

To ignore suggestions that a pitcher is hurt whenever he struggles (Zambrano last season, Hill and now Marmol this season) doesn't mean it's an excuse to never believe anything is wrong with someone. Clearly there is something wrong with Marmol. It doesn't mean he's hurt. Especially when the problems he's having have manifested themselves in the past in the big leagues and the minors.

[NCCubFan]

Well, what's your definition of broken then? I'm not saying he can't regain his form.

I don't think anybody's saying that he can't regain his form. Saying he's "broken" is saying that there's something clearly wrong now (as opposed to just the occasional bad outing that everybody has), and he's had enough recent stinkers that I think it's indisputable that something is wrong at the moment. Saying he's "broken" is NOT saying that the problem can't be corrected. Perhaps we're just debating semantics here.

[TruffleShuffle]

good hitter performs poorly for a stretch - he's slumping

good pitcher performs poorly for a stretch - he must be hurt

[Soul]

good hitter performs poorly for a stretch - he's slumping

good pitcher performs poorly for a stretch - he must be hurt

 

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I never said that. Actually never even came close to saying that.

[TruffleShuffle]

good hitter performs poorly for a stretch - he's slumping

good pitcher performs poorly for a stretch - he must be hurt

 

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I never said that. Actually never even came close to saying that.

 

as raisin pointed out above, that's a common theme on this board. nobody said lee or aram "must be hurt" when they were in pretty bad funks this year. but zambrano, hill and marmol have all had a majority of the board thinking that they're hurt when in fact, they were just slumping (well zambrano and hill were; we don't know either way on marmol yet).

[rawaction]

At this point, it's time to call up Mark Riggins.

[Soul]

good hitter performs poorly for a stretch - he's slumping

good pitcher performs poorly for a stretch - he must be hurt

 

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I never said that. Actually never even came close to saying that.

 

as raisin pointed out above, that's a common theme on this board. nobody said lee or aram "must be hurt" when they were in pretty bad funks this year. but zambrano, hill and marmol have all had a majority of the board thinking that they're hurt when in fact, they were just slumping (well zambrano and hill were; we don't know either way on marmol yet).

 

That's fine. I don't disagree with it. I just think Marmol's real issue should be discovered and fixed before he is simply thrown out there to blow up again.

[Guest]

At this point, it's time to call up Mark Riggins.

 

Fantastic.

 

Something someone else pointed out to me is that besides Marmol's high usage pattern for the first third of the season, Carlos also threw about 15 January innings in the Dominican Winter League.

[mdwilla]

If it's not health related and the Cubs and Carlos are confident thats not the issue sending him down now would be the right time to work with Riggins. Those 15 innings in winter ball where a bad idea. Ascanio should some see time now so Lou can get an idea if this kids ready while at the same time with break coming up give Marmol a chance to rest his arm.