Lou Pinella, What the hell are you doing?

[CubinNY]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 2) stealing third (didn't work) 3) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

Edited June 18, 2008 by CubinNY

[soapy]

I had no problem with Hoffpauir hitting in that spot. The only thing I didn't like was Johnson trying to steal third with two outs, but I assume that was done on his own and not directed by Lou.

[Mizzou]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

[CubinNY]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

 

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

[hawkeyecub]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 2) stealing third (didn't work) 3) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

 

I disagree with 1 and 3, there is no defense for 2. With the way our offense was struggling, 2 outs and Theriot coming up, it was the right move to try to stretch that. He had a very good chance of getting there safely and he did, it was well worth it.

With Longoria playing back the way he was, I had no problem with the bunt. The bunt wasn't perfect plus Longoria made a heck of a break on that ball and made a hell of a play.

[hawkeyecub]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

 

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

15 feet? Boy that's not much of an exaggeration or anything. I'm watching the replay right now on ESPN and as the 1B is gathering the ball, Johnson's left foot is planted and he's making his final step to the bag with his right. So unless Reed has a 15 foot stride, you're off by about 10-12 feet.

[soapy]

i don't necessarily mind the bunt attempt, but i didn't like it on the first pitch. Percival was having trouble throwing strikes and had been hit hard a couple of times already that inning.

[CubinNY]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

 

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

15 feet? Boy that's not much of an exaggeration or anything. I'm watching the replay right now on ESPN and as the 1B is gathering the ball, Johnson's left foot is planted and he's making his final step to the bag with his right. So unless Reed has a 15 foot stride, you're off by about 10-12 feet.

The firstbaseman was standing on the bag with the ball in his hand well before Reed reached 1st. Probably 3-5 paces.

[Donzo1679666396]

I was at the game... When Johnson bunted, I said tie game- Then Longoria got to the ball at light speed- so be it, tip your hat to Longoria.... One thing is that is was no surprise Longoria made that play- he's outstanding at 3B-- don't know if Johnson considered that or not.

 

Anyway, the power whining over Piniella is way crazy here.... He's vilified for using Marmol too much, but when he uses the back end of the pen, when the Cubs are losing, he's doing the wrong thing- The Cubs were stupid to send down Pie & sign Edmonds( btw, how's that working out? )- now Piniella is stupid for not using Edmonds.... The crying over the 25th spot, Fontenot/EP, is as silly as anything I've seen- gees, it's the last spot on the freagin' roster & Fontenot is more advance & has played better.... Too funny!

 

At least you guys were right about Piniella being stupid for using Dempster as a starter & not using Hill...... oops, nevermind.

 

OK, back to the tantrums--- :cry: :banghead: :cry:

[CubinNY]

I was at the game... When Johnson bunted, I said tie game- Then Longoria got to the ball at light speed- so be it, tip your hat to Longoria.... One thing is that is was no surprise Longoria made that play- he's outstanding at 3B-- don't know if Johnson considered that or not.

 

Anyway, the power whining over Piniella is way crazy here.... He's vilified for using Marmol too much, but when he uses the back end of the pen, when the Cubs are losing, he's doing the wrong thing- The Cubs were stupid to send down Pie & sign Edmonds( btw, how's that working out? )- now Piniella is stupid for not using Edmonds.... The crying over the 25th spot, Fontenot/EP, is as silly as anything I've seen- gees, it's the last spot on the freagin' roster & Fontenot is more advance & has played better.... Too funny!

 

At least you guys were right about Piniella being stupid for using Dempster as a starter & not using Hill...... oops, nevermind.

 

OK, back to the tantrums--- :cry: :banghead: :cry:

You were as right about the "tie game" as you are about the rest of your post.

 

Bravo!

[Transmogrified Tiger]

You were as right about the "tie game" as you are about the rest of your post.

 

Bravo!

 

Was that really necessary? If you aren't going to respond to the points he made, then there's no need to say anything.

[CubinNY]

You were as right about the "tie game" as you are about the rest of your post.

 

Bravo!

 

Was that really necessary? If you aren't going to respond to the points he made, then there's no need to say anything.

 

I responded to each and every point he made. They are all wrong.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

You were as right about the "tie game" as you are about the rest of your post.

 

Bravo!

 

Was that really necessary? If you aren't going to respond to the points he made, then there's no need to say anything.

 

I responded to each and every point he made. They are all wrong.

 

Then say why instead of being snide. The condesenscion(boy do I miss my auto-spellcheck when I'm at work) is unnecessary.

[CubinNY]

You were as right about the "tie game" as you are about the rest of your post.

 

Bravo!

 

Was that really necessary? If you aren't going to respond to the points he made, then there's no need to say anything.

 

I responded to each and every point he made. They are all wrong.

 

Then say why instead of being snide. The condesenscion(boy do I miss my auto-spellcheck when I'm at work) is unnecessary.

Noted

[Tracer Bullet]

You were as right about the "tie game" as you are about the rest of your post.

 

Bravo!

 

Was that really necessary? If you aren't going to respond to the points he made, then there's no need to say anything.

 

I responded to each and every point he made. They are all wrong.

 

Then say why instead of being snide. The condesenscion(boy do I miss my auto-spellcheck when I'm at work) is unnecessary.

 

Wait a minute - you don't like CubinNY's tone, but the tone of the post he was responding too, calling everyone who takes issue with Lou a whiner, is ok? Seems to me he invited a snide response with the tone of his message.

[jersey cubs fan]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

 

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

15 feet? Boy that's not much of an exaggeration or anything. I'm watching the replay right now on ESPN and as the 1B is gathering the ball, Johnson's left foot is planted and he's making his final step to the bag with his right. So unless Reed has a 15 foot stride, you're off by about 10-12 feet.

The firstbaseman was standing on the bag with the ball in his hand well before Reed reached 1st. Probably 3-5 paces.

 

Not only was he out by a very wide margin, but they clearly didn't have to make a perfect play to get the out. it was a horrible throw and he was still out by several steps. Defending that bunt is absurd. It was a horrible decision whose execution was made all the more difficult by the playing surface. People blindly applaud being aggressive, "pressuring the defense" or trying to make things happen, but that was a straight up idiotic move by Reed Johnson.

[Soul]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

 

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

15 feet? Boy that's not much of an exaggeration or anything. I'm watching the replay right now on ESPN and as the 1B is gathering the ball, Johnson's left foot is planted and he's making his final step to the bag with his right. So unless Reed has a 15 foot stride, you're off by about 10-12 feet.

The firstbaseman was standing on the bag with the ball in his hand well before Reed reached 1st. Probably 3-5 paces.

 

Not only was he out by a very wide margin, but they clearly didn't have to make a perfect play to get the out. it was a horrible throw and he was still out by several steps. Defending that bunt is absurd. It was a horrible decision whose execution was made all the more difficult by the playing surface. People blindly applaud being aggressive, "pressuring the defense" or trying to make things happen, but that was a straight up idiotic move by Reed Johnson.

 

Then maybe we need a "Reed Johnson, what the hell are you doing?" thread.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Wait a minute - you don't like CubinNY's tone, but the tone of the post he was responding too, calling everyone who takes issue with Lou a whiner, is ok? Seems to me he invited a snide response with the tone of his message.

 

I didn't say that post was flawless, but it had content, examples, and in general made a point(also, it didn't make the "everyone is a whiner" argument, more of a "there's too much whining"). Sarcastically saying "nuh-uh" without addressing any of the content of the post doesn't really do any of those.

[CubinNY]

Micah Hoffpauir hitting when Jim Edmonds should have

 

That was the biggest reason the game wasn't in extras last night.

 

Johnson trying to swipe third and Neal Cotts being Neal Cotts didn't help, but I put that one on Lou.

The Cubs played a little sloppy last night, they didn't deserve to win. However, if I had to blame one person it would be Reed. He had his head up his own ass three times 1) trying to stretch the single (worked) 3) stealing third (didn't work) 4) bunting on that turf (didn't work). There's a reason why Tampa has the fewest sac bunts in baseball and it ain't b/c they're managed by an Earl Weaver clone with a lot of big hitters.

I don't understand why you're complaining about him stretching that single into a double considering that it worked, but whatever.

 

As for the bunt in the 9th, it was a great idea. If Longoria doesn't make a perfect play on that ball, the game would've been tied. Unfortunately, he did make a perfect play. Nothing wrong with dropping down a bunt there.

 

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

15 feet? Boy that's not much of an exaggeration or anything. I'm watching the replay right now on ESPN and as the 1B is gathering the ball, Johnson's left foot is planted and he's making his final step to the bag with his right. So unless Reed has a 15 foot stride, you're off by about 10-12 feet.

The firstbaseman was standing on the bag with the ball in his hand well before Reed reached 1st. Probably 3-5 paces.

 

Not only was he out by a very wide margin, but they clearly didn't have to make a perfect play to get the out. it was a horrible throw and he was still out by several steps. Defending that bunt is absurd. It was a horrible decision whose execution was made all the more difficult by the playing surface. People blindly applaud being aggressive, "pressuring the defense" or trying to make things happen, but that was a straight up idiotic move by Reed Johnson.

 

Then maybe we need a "Reed Johnson, what the hell are you doing?" thread.

My original point was that this loss wasn't on Lou. I think he did the right things last night. However, I will say that playing DeRosa all over the field will sometimes create situations where errors (mental) are made as DeRosa is playing out of position. Last night Bob made some comment about DeRosa backing up 1st. Well Bob perhaps he should have, but perhaps having a guy out of position will cost you sometimes.

[RynoRules]

The Johnson steal attempt and bunt were two of the worst plays this season and harken back to the Dusty days, in my mind. I sincerely doubt they had anything to do with Lou b/c:

 

1) he has little or no history of ordering bunts in that type of situation; and

2) he obeys many of baseballs grand ol' maxims, including that you never, ever make the first or third out at third base.

[David]

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

First, let me start out by saying that I agree with you completely. That said, I find it pretty ironic/puzzling that you're taking this stance considering you argued adamantly with me over the offseason that process didn't matter more than outcome (results).

 

I forget what thread it was but there's a pretty decent chance that, given the fact that it was in the offseason, it was in the Roberts thread. :lol:

 

EDIT - Ah, here we go

 

That is just silly. The proof of the process is in the product. Process is never more important than outcome. Never, not in a million years, and not in any way, shape, or form for any aspect of life.

 

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=45104&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=process%2C+outcome&start=175

 

Don't ask me why I remembered that. I don't really know. I guess it just stuck in my mind because I was surprised that you would take that stance, given your usual positions on things here.. *shrug*

Edited June 18, 2008 by David

[David]

I was at the game... When Johnson bunted, I said tie game- Then Longoria got to the ball at light speed- so be it, tip your hat to Longoria.... One thing is that is was no surprise Longoria made that play- he's outstanding at 3B-- don't know if Johnson considered that or not.

 

Anyway, the power whining over Piniella is way crazy here.... He's vilified for using Marmol too much, but when he uses the back end of the pen, when the Cubs are losing, he's doing the wrong thing- The Cubs were stupid to send down Pie & sign Edmonds( btw, how's that working out? )- now Piniella is stupid for not using Edmonds.... The crying over the 25th spot, Fontenot/EP, is as silly as anything I've seen- gees, it's the last spot on the freagin' roster & Fontenot is more advance & has played better.... Too funny!

 

At least you guys were right about Piniella being stupid for using Dempster as a starter & not using Hill...... oops, nevermind.

 

OK, back to the tantrums--- :cry: :banghead: :cry:

 

 

You're really missing the point of the Marmol usage outcry.

[twothousandfive]

Johnson is batting less than .250 against righties this year and you can argue Troy Percival is a better than average pitcher. So, the odds of Johnson getting a hit ( a walk doesn't help, and the likelihood of errors is low) are about 20%. I think it is fair to say his bunting skills are good enough to get the bat on the ball, get it on the ground, bunt it fair.

 

With all that, even on turf with a solid third-baseman, I'd say he's got a better than 10% chance of success. The bunt wasn't the best play, but I think the criticism overstates how bad it was. And of course, it wasn't that close -- I don't know what the broadcasters were watching.

 

It's not like Neifi bunting with the tying run on first base, is it? At least Johnson had a chance at the desired outcome, even if that chance was a bit lower than if he swung away.

[CubinNY]

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

First, let me start out by saying that I agree with you completely. That said, I find it pretty ironic/puzzling that you're taking this stance considering you argued adamantly with me over the offseason that process didn't matter more than outcome (results).

 

I forget what thread it was but there's a pretty decent chance that, given the fact that it was in the offseason, it was in the Roberts thread. :lol:

 

Not to go on a tangent.

 

Process doesn't matter more than outcome and this is a perfect point to illustrate it, Reed got lucky once and then did two stupid things afterwards, IMO, because his "hustle" (i.e., process) was reinforced by stretching a single into a double (outcome) the first time.

 

Outcome always matters, it is what defines good process. With poor "process" one can get away with it every once in a while but more times that not the outcome won't be what is desirable (i.e., getting thrown out at 3rd and attempting to bunt when a) the pitcher has had a hard time finding the plate, and b) the playing surface is fast).

 

IMO, it also hurt when DeRosa didn't back up 1st base.

[David]

Yesterday I drove backwards down the highway, it worked so I'm going to try it today too. Whatever works man'.

 

I love Len but he's dead wrong. It wasn't a perfect play it was a routine play and Johnson was thrown out by 15 feet. Johnson should know better than to bunt on a billiard green. Like I said, there's a reason why Tampa doesn't bunt.

 

First, let me start out by saying that I agree with you completely. That said, I find it pretty ironic/puzzling that you're taking this stance considering you argued adamantly with me over the offseason that process didn't matter more than outcome (results).

 

I forget what thread it was but there's a pretty decent chance that, given the fact that it was in the offseason, it was in the Roberts thread. :lol:

 

Not to go on a tangent.

 

Process doesn't matter more than outcome and this is a perfect point to illustrate it, Reed got lucky once and then did two stupid things afterwards, IMO, because his "hustle" (i.e., process) was reinforced by stretching a single into a double (outcome) the first time.

 

Outcome always matters, it is what defines good process. With poor "process" one can get away with it every once in a while but more times that not the outcome won't be what is desirable (i.e., getting thrown out at 3rd and attempting to bunt when a) the pitcher has had a hard time finding the plate, and b) the playing surface is fast).

 

IMO, it also hurt when DeRosa didn't back up 1st base.

 

 

Good process = RJ not attempting to take second base... not attempting to drive backwards on the highway

 

Bad process = RJ attempting to take second... you attempting to drive backwards on the highway

 

Process trumps outcome. Do you see what I'm getting at here? The fact that you made a bad decision by driving backwards on the highway isn't somehow justified or excused by a good outcome (i.e. you not killing yourself, making it through unscathed). This is precisely the point you were making earlier in this thread and is the same point I will continue to make about how process matters more than outcome.