Maybe the White Sox are for real.

[bukie]

Sure, the Sox hit a lot of homeruns but it was 42 less homeruns than the season before and their lowest team total since 1999.

 

Because they traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.

[moochpuppy]

Aside from being wrong in everything you've posted in this thread, you're performing magnificently.

 

Great argument. :roll:

[RationalSoxFan]

Podsednik is indisputably horrid at baseball. He is a 0-tool player. If the trade cleared enough payroll for Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and El Duque to be added in the same offseason, then the trade obviously looks better in terms of effect.

[moochpuppy]

Sure, the Sox hit a lot of homeruns but it was 42 less homeruns than the season before and their lowest team total since 1999.

 

Because they traded Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.

 

Lee's production was replaced by Dye.

[moochpuppy]

Podsednik is indisputably horrid at baseball. He is a 0-tool player. If the trade cleared enough payroll for Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and El Duque to be added in the same offseason, then the trade obviously looks better in terms of effect.

 

Nevermind the 59 stolen bases.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Podsednik is indisputably horrid at baseball. He is a 0-tool player. If the trade cleared enough payroll for Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and El Duque to be added in the same offseason, then the trade obviously looks better in terms of effect.

 

Nevermind the 59 stolen bases.

 

Or the 23 caught stealings, which virtually wiped out the good of the 59 steals.

[imb]

Sox already had enough power and RBI guys in Konerko, Dye and Everett.

 

Little known fact, each team can only have three power and RBI guys at one time. Every other player has to be a slow, weak-hitting white guy.

 

Says the fan of the team that has been desperately trying to trade for Brian Roberts.

 

Already established how stupid this is and it's actually sort of embarrassing that someone with a working brain would type this out. Maybe it was an accident?

 

The Sox already had plenty of power. Lee is the better offensive player

Wait, what?

 

So say what you will about old baseball traditional positions but there is a reason why they are traditions.....it's because they work more often than not

 

Nevermind the 59 stolen bases.

Please ignore the 23 caught stealings.

[XZero771679666304]

Podsednik is indisputably horrid at baseball. He is a 0-tool player. If the trade cleared enough payroll for Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and El Duque to be added in the same offseason, then the trade obviously looks better in terms of effect.

 

Nevermind the 59 stolen bases.

 

Nevermind that he got caught 23 times in 82 attempts, making his running a net loss for the offense. If your steal rate is less than 80% (Pods' was 71%), you are hurting your team.

 

And it's not like his OBP (.351) was anything special.

 

Like it has been said, the "Sox won with small ball in 2005" thing is a total myth. Homers and career years from the rotation, that's it.

Edited April 17, 2008 by XZero77

[YearofDaCubs]

Let's face the facts.. The Sox won the World Series due to their pitching. Awesome rotation and everyone in the pen was playing out of their minds.

[javy knows my name]

Podsednik is indisputably horrid at baseball. He is a 0-tool player. If the trade cleared enough payroll for Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, and El Duque to be added in the same offseason, then the trade obviously looks better in terms of effect.

 

Nevermind the 59 stolen bases.

DONE

[moochpuppy]

Thanks for the baseball discussion guys. Your tact leaves something to be desired.

[imb]

Thanks for the baseball discussion guys. Your tact leaves something to be desired.

 

head on back to WSI, then. I'm sure you'll find more acceptance for your terrible baseball theories over there.

[Guest]

Thanks for the baseball discussion guys. Your tact leaves something to be desired.

 

head on back to WSI, then. I'm sure you'll find more acceptance for your terrible baseball theories over there.

mooch is cool. He's a sox fan and overrates the importance of "smart ball", but he's a good guy. Let's treat him as such.

[imb]

Thanks for the baseball discussion guys. Your tact leaves something to be desired.

 

head on back to WSI, then. I'm sure you'll find more acceptance for your terrible baseball theories over there.

mooch is cool. He's a sox fan and overrates the importance of "smart ball", but he's a good guy. Let's treat him as such.

 

Let's see how many arguments he wants to come over here and start when the white sox are 20 games under .500 in august.

[moochpuppy]

mooch is cool. He's a sox fan and overrates the importance of "smart ball", but he's a good guy. Let's treat him as such.

 

Thanks Tim. I am not so much overrating the importance of "Ozzie Ball" but trying to express how much Podsednik meant to that team in '05 and that the trade for Lee was the right move for the Sox to make. I guess when you speak into a canyon the words just end up echoing back. ;)

[moochpuppy]

Let's see how many arguments he wants to come over here and start when the white sox are 20 games under .500 in august.

 

Sorry to disappoint but I did not start this thread.

[bukie]

mooch is cool. He's a sox fan and overrates the importance of "smart ball", but he's a good guy. Let's treat him as such.

 

Thanks Tim. I am not so much overrating the importance of "Ozzie Ball" but trying to express how much Podsednik meant to that team in '05 and that the trade for Lee was the right move for the Sox to make. I guess when you speak into a canyon the words just end up echoing back. ;)

 

But do you completely discount the possibility that the fact that the Sox won the world series was completely unrelated to that trade?

 

The facts remain that the only areas where the Sox were above average in '05 was overall pitching and offensive home runs. Of the 12 pitchers that regularly contributed to that 2005 team, 11 of them pitched completely out of their minds for that entire year (Garcia possibly being an exception since he had similar statistical years), and the 12th (Hernandez) magically became completely unhittable in the playoffs. No other team that year or since has had that kind of dominance in pitching.

 

I consider it a disservice to that team to claim "smartball" had anything to do with that season going well. If anything, it prevented easy wins because of a propensity to give away outs with overzealous SB attempts and sacrifices.

 

EDIT: Corrected with Garcia the one not having a career year. He did have better years, but his 2005 was still above average. Buehrle did have his best year in '05.

Edited April 17, 2008 by bukie

[Hairyducked Idiot]

mooch is cool. He's a sox fan and overrates the importance of "smart ball", but he's a good guy. Let's treat him as such.

 

Thanks Tim. I am not so much overrating the importance of "Ozzie Ball" but trying to express how much Podsednik meant to that team in '05 and that the trade for Lee was the right move for the Sox to make. I guess when you speak into a canyon the words just end up echoing back. ;)

 

Did Podsednik come into the clubhouse on day 1 and say "Hey, pitchers, why don't you all have career years at the same time?"

 

Because that's the only way I can see him being a key piece.

[UMFan83]

2004 White Sox: 865 runs

2005 White Sox: 741 runs

 

2005 White Sox added (as starters): Pierzynski, Podsednik, Dye, Iguchi, Carl Everett

2005 White Sox lost (as starters): Davis, Borchard, Thomas, CARLOS LEE, Valentin

 

2004 White Sox: Gave up 834 runs

2005 White Sox: Gave up 645 runs

 

2004 White Sox: 83 wins

2005 White Sox: 99 wins

 

So the Sox upgraded at catcher, RF, 2B, DH and 2B and STILL scored 124 runs less than the year before. But yeah Podsednik was the key to that team. How can anyone think that the pitching giving up 189 less runs than the year before had anything to do with their successes?

[imb]

Let's see how many arguments he wants to come over here and start when the white sox are 20 games under .500 in august.

 

Sorry to disappoint but I did not start this thread.

 

You're amazingly dense.

[JimSorgi]

I'll take power over speed every day of the week. It's not like Lee is Konerko out there, he's actually got decent speed for such a big guy. It's not like he's Juan Uribe when it comes to getting on base either. Lee is easily the better offensive player, so unless your contention is that the Sox won the series due to their LF defense, I'm not buying it.

 

The Sox already had plenty of power. Lee is the better offensive player when it comes to HR and RBI and AVG but what Podsednik gave the Sox was a player who could manufacture runs, a player who could beat out an infield hit (40 in 2005, 16 of those bunts), a player who could get on base (.419 OBP leading off the game in 2005) in the first inning and be at 2B by the time the meat of the order came up. He was the spark for the Sox in '05 and the offense suffered when he was out with an injury later in the year, which almost cost the Sox. Pods reminded my alot of what Bobby Dernier did for the Cubs in '84.

 

So say what you will about old baseball traditional positions but there is a reason why they are traditions.....it's because they work more often than not and in 2005, it worked like a charm.

 

I guess infield hits are better than outfield hits?

[SABR Gamer]

Let's face the facts.. The Sox won the World Series due to their pitching. Awesome rotation and everyone in the pen was playing out of their minds.

 

lol, seriously,

 

Neal Cotts:

ERA    ERA+   WHIP
1.94   232    1.110    (2005)
4.55   102    1.440    (Career)

[UMFan83]

I'll take power over speed every day of the week. It's not like Lee is Konerko out there, he's actually got decent speed for such a big guy. It's not like he's Juan Uribe when it comes to getting on base either. Lee is easily the better offensive player, so unless your contention is that the Sox won the series due to their LF defense, I'm not buying it.

 

The Sox already had plenty of power. Lee is the better offensive player when it comes to HR and RBI and AVG but what Podsednik gave the Sox was a player who could manufacture runs, a player who could beat out an infield hit (40 in 2005, 16 of those bunts), a player who could get on base (.419 OBP leading off the game in 2005) in the first inning and be at 2B by the time the meat of the order came up. He was the spark for the Sox in '05 and the offense suffered when he was out with an injury later in the year, which almost cost the Sox. Pods reminded my alot of what Bobby Dernier did for the Cubs in '84.

 

So say what you will about old baseball traditional positions but there is a reason why they are traditions.....it's because they work more often than not and in 2005, it worked like a charm.

 

I guess infield hits are better than outfield hits?

 

Most of those "stats" are horrible. He had 40 IF hits...so what? He only had 117 outfield hits. IF hits are likely less valuable than OF hits as at most they can only move the runner up one base. Either way he hit .290.

 

.419 OBP leading off the game? What a fluke stat...unless of course you are telling me that he spent so much energy trying to get on base to begin the game that he was unable to get on base at a proficient clip the rest of the game. Either way, he got on base at a .351 clip.

[sneakypower]

2004 White Sox: 865 runs

2005 White Sox: 741 runs

 

2005 White Sox added (as starters): Pierzynski, Podsednik, Dye, Iguchi, Carl Everett

2005 White Sox lost (as starters): Davis, Borchard, Thomas, CARLOS LEE, Valentin

 

2004 White Sox: Gave up 834 runs

2005 White Sox: Gave up 645 runs

 

2004 White Sox: 83 wins

2005 White Sox: 99 wins

 

So the Sox upgraded at catcher, RF, 2B, DH and 2B and STILL scored 124 runs less than the year before. But yeah Podsednik was the key to that team. How can anyone think that the pitching giving up 189 less runs than the year before had anything to do with their successes?

the problem is that you're looking at this in terms of aggregated production. winning 10-1 doesn't benefit you in the standings anymore than 3-2, i know this is nothing groundbreaking to say. but for a team that does benefit from a strong pitching staff it might be prudent to have players who can more consistently score runs. i know this is going to incite loads of chuckles because now i sound like joe morgan, but it should be obvious that offensive production via bunt singles, stolen bases, sacrifices are more easily achieved when you're facing tough pitchers than swinging away trying for hits. that's just playing situationally, getting what the defense gives you.

 

of course, if you don't have a strong pitching staff the weaknesses of podsednik types are greatly exposed, as you'll need to score more runs to keep up with what your pitchers are surrendering and don't really have the option of situational small ball.

 

you guys are going by the sabermetric book too much in this topic.

[Rob]

The White Sox won in 2005 in spite of the Lee - Podsednik swap... not because of it.