Rich Hill on thin Ice?

[Jehrico]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

Ahh...the famous attack the posters when you can't attack the posts strategy...you must be an aspiring politician. When you can't attack another candidates view points or plans, you attack the candidate himself and try to discredit him. Brilliant.

[bring stone back]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

Ahh...the famous attack the posters when you can't attack the posts strategy...you must be an aspiring politician. When you can't attack another candidates view points or plans, you attack the candidate himself and try to discredit him. Brilliant.

 

Better question - is he wrong?

 

They are taking unusual steps BECAUSE they see how much talent, potential and upside he has. They won't put Marquis or Lilly to the bullpen because this is who they are - what you see is what you get. Hill has the talent to be so much better.

[UK1679666180]

Sure he's wrong.

 

If he was right then that would mean every decision the Cubs have made had been the right one, history obviously tells us otherwise.

 

Regardless of their baseball background, people are going develop their own opinions on the game and how the Cubs should be run. I don't think sharing that opinion equates to knowing everything about the game or knowing more about the game than the Cubs' brass.

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

I know during my lifetime, I've seen Cubs' managers mismanage players.

[TBone]

This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option.

 

To give Lou a little credit, NOT ALOT MIND YOU, but a little, once he did see Soto was the better player, he played Soto more. Plain and simple.

 

Maybe Piniella wants Pie to show him he is better then Johnson, and Pie hasn't be up for the challenge. Now I understand the lack of playing, I really do, but there is more the "rising to the challenge" then what is on the field. Pie has to show he can play, so maybe the Cubs see something Pie they don't like, and are trying to correct the problem. Same goes with Hill.

 

I'd love to ask him why Jason effing Kendall started Game 3 last year.

 

Because Kendall had a .500 or so career average against whatever bum the DBacks threw out there.

 

But yeah, that's dumb.

[TBone]

If Hill's indeed got a mechanical glitch, then moving him to the pen should be a good way to get him more reps to work out the muscle memory requried to fix his mechanical glitch. He can throw on the side more as well as more often, which should help that muscle memory and hopefully fix the mechanical glitch. I don't see how moving him to the pen and skipping one of his starts is going to blow his confidence to come back into the rotation once the issue is fixed--especially if he knows that's the reason.

 

In all honesty, I'm more concerned with Lilly

[Guest]

If Hill's indeed got a mechanical glitch, then moving him to the pen should be a good way to get him more reps to work out the muscle memory requried to fix his mechanical glitch. He can throw on the side more as well as more often, which should help that muscle memory and hopefully fix the mechanical glitch. I don't see how moving him to the pen and skipping one of his starts is going to blow his confidence to come back into the rotation once the issue is fixed--especially if he knows that's the reason.

 

In all honesty, I'm more concerned with Lilly

I completely agree with this.

[Guest]

Is there reason to be concerned with Rich's mechanics? Let's see:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bobskeeper/RHrelease.png

 

The above graph shows Rich's release points, with 2007's in dark blue and 2008's in red. (Units are in feet left/right of center of home plate for the x axis, feet above ground for the y axis.) With the standard caveat that the 2008 data has an extremely small sample size, there does appear to be a difference. His release point so far this season looks to be more consistent that it was last season; in 2007 he seemed to alternate between an overhand delivery and at times he dropped down to more of a three-quarter sidearm delivery. So far in 20008, however, almost all of his pitches have been in the latter with few if any coming from a true overhand arm slot.

 

I'm not sure yet if this is a bad or good thing. The conventional wisdom seems to be that a more consistent delivery will get you more consistent results/control, but that certainly hasn't been the case with Rich so far this season. I'm tempted to compare Rich's effectiveness when he has the overhand release point versus when he drops down a tad. The anecdotal evidence from 2008 seems to suggest he's much more effective when he keeps that arm angle up.

[Guest]

Is there reason to be concerned with Rich's mechanics? Let's see:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bobskeeper/RHrelease.png

 

The above graph shows Rich's release points, with 2007's in dark blue and 2008's in red. (Units are in feet left/right of center of home plate for the x axis, feet above ground for the y axis.) With the standard caveat that the 2008 data has an extremely small sample size, there does appear to be a difference. His release point so far this season looks to be more consistent that it was last season; in 2007 he seemed to alternate between an overhand delivery and at times he dropped down to more of a three-quarter sidearm delivery. So far in 20008, however, almost all of his pitches have been in the latter with few if any coming from a true overhand arm slot.

 

I'm not sure yet if this is a bad or good thing. The conventional wisdom seems to be that a more consistent delivery will get you more consistent results/control, but that certainly hasn't been the case with Rich so far this season. I'm tempted to compare Rich's effectiveness when he has the overhand release point versus when he drops down a tad. The anecdotal evidence from 2008 seems to suggest he's much more effective when he keeps that arm angle up.

In ST they talked about altering his mechanics a bit.

[SouthSideRyan]

I love when BK shows up. Was there ever any reason given for messing with Hill's mechanics? I didn't play close enough attention to notice if they were trying to fix something they saw that went wrong, or if they were just screwing with him to screw with him.

[RynoRules]

Is there reason to be concerned with Rich's mechanics? Let's see:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bobskeeper/RHrelease.png

 

The above graph shows Rich's release points, with 2007's in dark blue and 2008's in red. (Units are in feet left/right of center of home plate for the x axis, feet above ground for the y axis.) With the standard caveat that the 2008 data has an extremely small sample size, there does appear to be a difference. His release point so far this season looks to be more consistent that it was last season; in 2007 he seemed to alternate between an overhand delivery and at times he dropped down to more of a three-quarter sidearm delivery. So far in 20008, however, almost all of his pitches have been in the latter with few if any coming from a true overhand arm slot.

 

I'm not sure yet if this is a bad or good thing. The conventional wisdom seems to be that a more consistent delivery will get you more consistent results/control, but that certainly hasn't been the case with Rich so far this season. I'm tempted to compare Rich's effectiveness when he has the overhand release point versus when he drops down a tad. The anecdotal evidence from 2008 seems to suggest he's much more effective when he keeps that arm angle up.

In ST they talked about altering his mechanics a bit.

 

Looks like they did. His release point is very different. Wouldn't a lower release point make it more difficult to "get on top of the ball" and thus give you less movement?

[Guest]

Is there reason to be concerned with Rich's mechanics? Let's see:

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v384/bobskeeper/RHrelease.png

 

The above graph shows Rich's release points, with 2007's in dark blue and 2008's in red. (Units are in feet left/right of center of home plate for the x axis, feet above ground for the y axis.) With the standard caveat that the 2008 data has an extremely small sample size, there does appear to be a difference. His release point so far this season looks to be more consistent that it was last season; in 2007 he seemed to alternate between an overhand delivery and at times he dropped down to more of a three-quarter sidearm delivery. So far in 20008, however, almost all of his pitches have been in the latter with few if any coming from a true overhand arm slot.

 

I'm not sure yet if this is a bad or good thing. The conventional wisdom seems to be that a more consistent delivery will get you more consistent results/control, but that certainly hasn't been the case with Rich so far this season. I'm tempted to compare Rich's effectiveness when he has the overhand release point versus when he drops down a tad. The anecdotal evidence from 2008 seems to suggest he's much more effective when he keeps that arm angle up.

In ST they talked about altering his mechanics a bit.

 

Looks like they did. His release point is very different. Wouldn't a lower release point make it more difficult to "get on top of the ball" and thus give you less movement?

Depends on the pitch. If you're throwing a slider, a 3/4 arm slot is ideal. Curves are generally best over the top, though.

[Guest]

One note on the release point...

 

It could be that they have him working off a different part of the rubber, changing his stride, or any number of other things that would impact the release point. He could still be coming straight over the top and have that change in distribution.

[Guest]

One note on the release point...

 

It could be that they have him working off a different part of the rubber, changing his stride, or any number of other things that would impact the release point. He could still be coming straight over the top and have that change in distribution.

That thought had occurred to me, as well. However, it looks like the release points aren't just moved towards Rich's left, they've also tended to be a few inches lower than they were last year. That probably rules out a different position on the rubber as being an only factor at play here, though it's entirely possible that that combined with a longer stride could be causing the effects we're seeing.

 

Regardless of whether or not it's his arm slot, his stride, his position on the rubber, or a combination of the three it's pretty clear that something has changed Rich's delivery since last season. Of course it's too early to tell whether these changes are the cause of Hill's early season struggles or he's just suffering from your standard slump and the correlation is purely coincidental. A few more hundred pitches worth of data should help us figure that out.

[BigbadB]

I've got a really good idea. How about if we work on altering someone's mechanics during the offseason rather than during the regular season. That way, you can scrap the idea when the results just aren't where you'd like them to be.

[RynoRules]

I've got a really good idea. How about if we work on altering someone's mechanics during the offseason rather than during the regular season. That way, you can scrap the idea when the results just aren't where you'd like them to be.

 

Unless something happened durinhg the offseason that caused them to change his delivery during ST. Otherwise, why tinker? We need more info, I think.

[anabiono]

he is now the fifth starter and on verge of losing his spot in the rotation

 

geez...i sure hope lilly can pull his head out of his arse...

 

i tell you what...i am proud of the cubs for pulling out some games this year that would have been sure fire heartbreakers last year, but we are not going to do anything without both of our lefties back to form

[Jehrico]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

Ahh...the famous attack the posters when you can't attack the posts strategy...you must be an aspiring politician. When you can't attack another candidates view points or plans, you attack the candidate himself and try to discredit him. Brilliant.

 

Better question - is he wrong?

 

They are taking unusual steps BECAUSE they see how much talent, potential and upside he has. They won't put Marquis or Lilly to the bullpen because this is who they are - what you see is what you get. Hill has the talent to be so much better.

Is he wrong? Doesn't matter. If he's right, he should be able to make an argument without resorting to that crap. He wasn't even making an argument at that point, he was simply discrediting the entire board.

[ctcf]

[

 

i'm sorry, but we've all watched enough cubs baseball over the years to know that the coaching staff, despite the fact they spend a lot of time with the players, don't always know what's best.

 

 

I forgot that all of NSBB's brilliant minds (who just happen to not be brilliant enough to have jobs in baseball) do. Pretty much always it seems.

 

(I'm not saying I agree with yanking Hill, but seriously, people on NSBB think they know everything about baseball - sometimes it gets tiresome).

Ahh...the famous attack the posters when you can't attack the posts strategy...you must be an aspiring politician. When you can't attack another candidates view points or plans, you attack the candidate himself and try to discredit him. Brilliant.

 

Better question - is he wrong?

 

They are taking unusual steps BECAUSE they see how much talent, potential and upside he has. They won't put Marquis or Lilly to the bullpen because this is who they are - what you see is what you get. Hill has the talent to be so much better.

Is he wrong? Doesn't matter. If he's right, he should be able to make an argument without resorting to that crap. He wasn't even making an argument at that point, he was simply discrediting the entire board.

 

True but he's also pretty right about the board.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Here's more.

 

Beyond specific work and/or short leashes with struggling starters such as Rich Hill, the Cubs will keep their top four starters on fifth-day cycles and skip the fifth guy as days off dictate.

 

After Marquis' effort Sunday, he'll become the fourth guy in the rotation, Piniella said, starting again Friday against Pittsburgh -- following Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano and Ted Lilly.

 

 

''We've got [sean] Marshall and [Jon] Lieber that deserve an opportunity also,'' Piniella said. ''I'm not talking about now. I'm talking down the road a little bit.''

 

[abuck1220]

just so i have this right...marquis' outing sunday, in which he gave up nearly two baserunners per inning, bumped him up in the rotation. and he is now ahead of hill on the depth chart despite the fact that his season numbers are worse than hill's? and that's not even considering last year when hill was one of the better pitchers in baseball and marquis had a post-ASB ERA near 6.

 

this logic is just a little tough to follow, so please bear with me.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

just so i have this right...marquis' outing sunday, in which he gave up nearly two baserunners per inning, bumped him up in the rotation. and he is now ahead of hill on the depth chart despite the fact that his season numbers are worse than hill's? and that's not even considering last year when hill was one of the better pitchers in baseball and marquis had a post-ASB ERA near 6.

 

this logic is just a little tough to follow, so please bear with me.

you've come to the right place, we're all trying to work through this together

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Unbelievable. The sheer stupidity is mindboggling. You honestly wonder if this can really be happening.

[YearofDaCubs]

Here's more.

 

Beyond specific work and/or short leashes with struggling starters such as Rich Hill, the Cubs will keep their top four starters on fifth-day cycles and skip the fifth guy as days off dictate.

 

After Marquis' effort Sunday, he'll become the fourth guy in the rotation, Piniella said, starting again Friday against Pittsburgh -- following Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano and Ted Lilly.

 

 

''We've got [sean] Marshall and [Jon] Lieber that deserve an opportunity also,'' Piniella said. ''I'm not talking about now. I'm talking down the road a little bit.''

 

This was pretty funny from the article:

 

Zambrano said he has cut down ''a little bit'' and compared it to when Bartolo Colon told his team he was on a diet. ''When you see him in the clubhouse, he's eating fruit,'' Zambrano said, ''but you walk by his room at the hotel, and there's six pizza boxes

[javy knows my name]

Here's more.

 

Beyond specific work and/or short leashes with struggling starters such as Rich Hill, the Cubs will keep their top four starters on fifth-day cycles and skip the fifth guy as days off dictate.

 

After Marquis' effort Sunday, he'll become the fourth guy in the rotation, Piniella said, starting again Friday against Pittsburgh -- following Ryan Dempster, Carlos Zambrano and Ted Lilly.

 

 

''We've got [sean] Marshall and [Jon] Lieber that deserve an opportunity also,'' Piniella said. ''I'm not talking about now. I'm talking down the road a little bit.''

 

This was pretty funny from the article:

 

Zambrano said he has cut down ''a little bit'' and compared it to when Bartolo Colon told his team he was on a diet. ''When you see him in the clubhouse, he's eating fruit,'' Zambrano said, ''but you walk by his room at the hotel, and there's six pizza boxes

Thanks, guys for pointing out the highlights for those of us too lazy to read the story!