Rich Hill on thin Ice?

[RedFlash]

What I find HI------larious is that the Cubs are quick to get Hill out of the rotation, but when it comes to "Franchise Pitcher" Jason Marquis, they won' tdare to step on his ego and move him to the pen. Truth be told, Marquis needs to be moved out of the rotation before Hill does.

 

But hey, when the Cubs favorite game is "Confuse the Cubs fans", you can't expect the sharpest tools in the shed.

[Illini Iceman]

What I find HI------larious is that the Cubs are quick to get Hill out of the rotation, but when it comes to "Franchise Pitcher" Jason Marquis, they won' tdare to step on his ego and move him to the pen. Truth be told, Marquis needs to be moved out of the rotation before Hill does.

 

But hey, when the Cubs favorite game is "Confuse the Cubs fans", you can't expect the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

In the link it indicates they will just push back his next start while he works out some issues in the bullpen. They will move up Zambrano's next start since they have the off day then slot Hill back in the next time though. OMG - they are ruining this kid by trying to get his mechanics fixed!! And Piniella is quoted as saying Hill has a ton of talent - how can he get a away with ripping one of his players like that - it is uncalled for!!!

 

The guy has pretty much struggled all through the spring with his command. It's not like he only had one bad start. I don't see what is wrong with giving him time before his next start to work with Rothschild on getting himself straightened out.

 

I don't think there is much doubt that if Marquis has another bad start Piniella will be taking about replacing him with Lieber in the rotation. Implying that he is somehow untouchable is a bit of a stretch.

[C.C.]

What I find HI------larious is that the Cubs are quick to get Hill out of the rotation, but when it comes to "Franchise Pitcher" Jason Marquis, they won' tdare to step on his ego and move him to the pen. Truth be told, Marquis needs to be moved out of the rotation before Hill does.

 

But hey, when the Cubs favorite game is "Confuse the Cubs fans", you can't expect the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

 

Marquis was thisclose from being moved to the pen before the season started. He pitched his way back into the starting rotation in spring. If he starts to stink up the joint, he's not starting.

[RynoRules]

What I find HI------larious is that the Cubs are quick to get Hill out of the rotation, but when it comes to "Franchise Pitcher" Jason Marquis, they won' tdare to step on his ego and move him to the pen. Truth be told, Marquis needs to be moved out of the rotation before Hill does.

 

But hey, when the Cubs favorite game is "Confuse the Cubs fans", you can't expect the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

 

Marquis was thisclose from being moved to the pen before the season started. He pitched his way back into the starting rotation in spring. If he starts to stink up the joint, he's not starting.

 

Exactly. Plus I still think they want to trade him (hopefully for another bat) which will be harder to do if he is not beinh "showcased" in the rotation. As long as he pitches well he can stay there all season for all I care. I'd prefer it were Marshall or Gallagher, but under the circumstances I "get it".

[bring stone back]

hilarioius. yeah, having him pitch out of the pen, something he hasn't done in years, and completely throwing him out of his routine and warmup process is really going to get him back on track. what a stupid organization.

 

What do you expect them to do? Keep throwing him out there every 5th day and watch him melt down again? It's been brought up by him and the organization - Hill has some serious mental/confidence issues and sometimes he's his own worst enemy.

 

This is the smart thing to do. Put him in the bullpen, give him the time and space he needs to correct his issues and let him earn his way back to the rotation. We have a pitcher in the pen who will actually improve the staff until Hill gets back to himself. How again is this a bad thing when the team actually will improve for the short term?

 

you act like hill pooped his pants and ate the rosin bag on the mound while walking 22 straight hitters or something. he's had ONE bad start. ONE. now he has "mental issues"? you can tell a guy has mental issues based on watching him throw a baseball? wow, when i think about the great psychological figures of the past few hundred years, i think of freud, bf skinner and bring stone back from nsbb. honestly, that's some great company. let's just hope that, thanks to you, hill gets the psychological help he needs before he kills again.

 

Let me guess, you're also one of the guys who complain about Pie getting replaced although Pie looks completely overmatched when he gets his opportunities and Johnson is clearly outplaying him.

 

gotta love the condescending tone from a guy that can't see the difference between hill, a 28 year old pitcher in his third season (following a season in which he was among the NL leaders in a handful of categories) and pie, a 23 year old outfielder in essentially his first big league season. good call though.

 

Wow, I didn't realize I was thought of so highly in the psychological business. Hill and the organization have both stated that often he "gets in his own way" and does far too much thinking on the mound and even he stated he is his own worst enemy out there. Considering I have actually worked with sports psychologists I think this would be something to explore with Hill.

 

Love the, "before he kills again" comment. I can really appreciate the hyperbole and putting words in one's mouth so you can add more validity to your argument. Well played, sir...

 

Let Lieber take his spot the next 2-3 starts while Hill can gain back some confidence in long/middle relief and figure out his mechanical/confidence issues in the bullpen. What is so damn difficult to figure out? The organization gives Hill and opportunity to right himself AND imporove in the short term. Oh, the humanity...

Edited April 12, 2008 by bring stone back

[bring stone back]

hilarioius. yeah, having him pitch out of the pen, something he hasn't done in years, and completely throwing him out of his routine and warmup process is really going to get him back on track. what a stupid organization.

 

What do you expect them to do? Keep throwing him out there every 5th day and watch him melt down again? It's been brought up by him and the organization - Hill has some serious mental/confidence issues and sometimes he's his own worst enemy.

 

This is the smart thing to do. Put him in the bullpen, give him the time and space he needs to correct his issues and let him earn his way back to the rotation. We have a pitcher in the pen who will actually improve the staff until Hill gets back to himself. How again is this a bad thing when the team actually will improve for the short term?

 

Let me guess, you're also one of the guys who complain about Pie getting replaced although Pie looks completely overmatched when he gets his opportunities and Johnson is clearly outplaying him.

 

quit while you're ahead. and by "ahead" i mean "way behind."

 

Because I disagree with you? How dare I do such a thing? Again, the arrogance on this board is ridiculous.

 

It's not like they're trading Hill or putting him in exile. Quite the opposite actually, in my opinion they're coddling him a bit much and letting him work out his mechanical and confidence issues WHILE improving the rotation in the short term. Why is this difficult to understand?

[treebird]

jesus christ, i don't know who i hate more, the cubs, or the 70% of cubs fans who think this is a smart move.

[bring stone back]

jesus christ, i don't know who i hate more, the cubs, or the 70% of cubs fans who think this is a smart move.

 

70% - is that your scientific poll you conducted since yesterday? Impressive.

 

If you hate the Cubs why do you frequent a message board dedicated to discussing the Chicago Cubs?

 

Again, this is a 1-2 week thing to help Hill and the Cubs long-term. They see his potential and talent which is why they're taking these unusual steps.

[rawaction]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

[CubinNY]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

And you haven't even touched Pie yet.

[Jon]

Wow, I didn't realize I was thought of so highly in the psychological business. Hill and the organization have both stated that often he "gets in his own way" and does far too much thinking on the mound and even he stated he is his own worst enemy out there. Considering I have actually worked with sports psychologists I think this would be something to explore with Hill.

 

Love the, "before he kills again" comment. I can really appreciate the hyperbole and putting words in one's mouth so you can add more validity to your argument. Well played, sir...

 

Let Lieber take his spot the next 2-3 starts while Hill can gain back some confidence in long/middle relief and figure out his mechanical/confidence issues in the bullpen. What is so damn difficult to figure out? The organization gives Hill and opportunity to right himself AND imporove in the short term. Oh, the humanity...

Comments like "gets in his own way" or "he is his own worst enemy" are used to describe just about every good pitcher who is going through command issues. They don't actually mean anything other than walks are doing more damage than the opposing hitters.

[CoolHandLuke]

I say if Hill ends up sucking the entire year, then we are screwed no matter what. So why not leave him out there starting, which is really the only place he can solve his problems.

 

And Lieber fans: he isn't that good anymore. Sorry to burst your bubble, but a few good innings doesn't change the fact that he is fairly mediocre at the very best.

 

As I see it, our rotation currently has a pretty good chance of being bad. If Dempster pitches more like the Dempster of the last few years and less like the Dempster of the last two games, then that is one bad starter. Ted Lilly has looked terrible so far this year and looking over his career statistics, it is not an outrageous thought that he may have a bad year. Marquis, is obviously Marquis. Rich Hill pitching like Rich Hill is the most crucial component of our rotation's success, and I'm sorry but a move to the bullpen is not going to magically fix the problem, whatever it may be.

[Backtobanks]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

 

I've posted some of the same complaints when it comes to Lou over Dusty. I'm not a supporter of Dusty, but when push comes to shove, Lou usually goes for the veteran just like Dusty. Also, for all of the complaining about Hendry, a lot of these decisions were made in the dugout or at the request of the manager. I like Lou, but it seems like he has a teflon coating when it comes to criticism.

[RynoRules]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

 

I've posted some of the same complaints when it comes to Lou over Dusty. I'm not a supporter of Dusty, but when push comes to shove, Lou usually goes for the veteran just like Dusty. Also, for all of the complaining about Hendry, a lot of these decisions were made in the dugout or at the request of the manager. I like Lou, but it seems like he has a teflon coating when it comes to criticism.

 

Not sure that I agree with that. Dusty had it easy after the first year too because he nearly had them in the WS the year before. if this year's club does something similar, I think the media's gloves will come off. For now, most of the criticism I have heard and read has been directed at Jim.

[Guest]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

 

I've posted some of the same complaints when it comes to Lou over Dusty. I'm not a supporter of Dusty, but when push comes to shove, Lou usually goes for the veteran just like Dusty. Also, for all of the complaining about Hendry, a lot of these decisions were made in the dugout or at the request of the manager. I like Lou, but it seems like he has a teflon coating when it comes to criticism.

 

Yeah, Lou isn't the guy who benches players who don't deserve PT like people have said. I haven't been that impressed.

[RynoRules]

People act like this is the only stupid decision the Cubs have made and everything will work itself out. This is a team starting Marquis over better options like Lieber, Marshall, and now Hill. This is a team who allowed their top prospect a grand total of 4 starts before allowing him 1 start for the next 8 games, and pulling him in a 3rd inning double switch in that 1 start. This is a team that wasted time on Jason Kendall when Soto was clearly a better option. This is a team that demoted a very effective Marshall for the pennant race experienced, Steve F Trachsel. This is a team that values the ABs of guys like Craig Monroe and Mike Fontenot over Matt Murton. And this is just under Lou. The organization as a whole has a history of completely screwing up its young players and then wondering why they never develop or have to be traded for mediocre stopgaps.

 

I've posted some of the same complaints when it comes to Lou over Dusty. I'm not a supporter of Dusty, but when push comes to shove, Lou usually goes for the veteran just like Dusty. Also, for all of the complaining about Hendry, a lot of these decisions were made in the dugout or at the request of the manager. I like Lou, but it seems like he has a teflon coating when it comes to criticism.

 

Yeah, Lou isn't the guy who benches players who don't deserve PT like people have said. I haven't been that impressed.

 

He benched Izturis last season. Not that this was genuis work, just sayin'.

[Guest]

He gets credit for benching Izturis and dumping Marquis in the playoffs. Not earth shattering moves. Lou went to a 3-man rotation in the playoffs so it wasn't like Marquis was bumped out/demoted for someone else. Izturis was playing rather poorly, kudos to Lou for benching him but it was a rather obvious move so I don't see the need to go out of my way to give him credit for that.

 

He's handled Hill poorly recently (it's an organizational theme though with Rich; it seems like Larry has problems with Hill), handled Marshall and Murton questionably last year (Sean might possibly have been hurt so I don't know that I can hold that one against him) and has handled Pie brutally this season.

 

This isn't surprising. Most major league managers defer to veterans over younger players and move young guys around way more than they'd ever dare to move a veteran who struggles. Lou is no different, he just looks so good because he's followed Dusty who was 10 times worse and said stupid stuff to boot.

[WilcoFan]

The irony of calling out Lou Piniella for knee jerk reactions within the course of this thread is overwhelming.

[Sammy Sofa]

The irony of calling out Lou Piniella for knee jerk reactions within the course of this thread is overwhelming.

 

No, it's really not, because our kneejerk reactions don't stupidly make the team worse.

[TruffleShuffle]

The irony of calling out Lou Piniella for knee jerk reactions within the course of this thread is overwhelming.

 

No, it's really not, because our kneejerk reactions don't stupidly make the team worse.

 

nor is this the first time that piniella has stupidly made a knee-jerk reaction. there is a history of giving up on things way too early that dates back to last season.

[WilcoFan]

I'll be sure to get out of the way when the sky falls.

[SouthSideRyan]

Lou Piniella sucks.

[abuck1220]

It's not like they're trading Hill or putting him in exile. Quite the opposite actually, in my opinion they're coddling him a bit much and letting him work out his mechanical and confidence issues WHILE improving the rotation in the short term. Why is this difficult to understand?

 

because you're assuming that moving hill out of his routine, demoting him to the bullpen and taking away his job is somehow going to fix him. that's the problem with everybody assuming this is some kind of win-win...you're operating under the assumption that he's going to pitch two innings out of the pen and be 2007 rich hill again.

[RynoRules]

He gets credit for benching Izturis and dumping Marquis in the playoffs. Not earth shattering moves. Lou went to a 3-man rotation in the playoffs so it wasn't like Marquis was bumped out/demoted for someone else. Izturis was playing rather poorly, kudos to Lou for benching him but it was a rather obvious move so I don't see the need to go out of my way to give him credit for that.

 

He's handled Hill poorly recently (it's an organizational theme though with Rich; it seems like Larry has problems with Hill), handled Marshall and Murton questionably last year (Sean might possibly have been hurt so I don't know that I can hold that one against him) and has handled Pie brutally this season.

 

This isn't surprising. Most major league managers defer to veterans over younger players and move young guys around way more than they'd ever dare to move a veteran who struggles. Lou is no different, he just looks so good because he's followed Dusty who was 10 times worse and said stupid stuff to boot.

 

How exactly has he handled Pie "brutally"? The guy has been hurt for 3 of the dozen games, and has started the majority of the others.

[bring stone back]

It's not like they're trading Hill or putting him in exile. Quite the opposite actually, in my opinion they're coddling him a bit much and letting him work out his mechanical and confidence issues WHILE improving the rotation in the short term. Why is this difficult to understand?

 

because you're assuming that moving hill out of his routine, demoting him to the bullpen and taking away his job is somehow going to fix him. that's the problem with everybody assuming this is some kind of win-win...you're operating under the assumption that he's going to pitch two innings out of the pen and be 2007 rich hill again.

 

Quite the opposite. Another poster in another thread went to great lengths describing how he witnessed and heard Rothschild working with Hill on a mechanical flaw which was hurting him. They were working on it and when Hill started to figure it out results were noticable and even Hill said he felt better with it.

 

Maybe the Cubs are thinking let's give him 3-4 lengthy bullpen sessions to fix this flaw, let's put him in a few "less pressure" situations in games to work on it and get his confidence back, maybe the Cubs asked Hill to take a step back and work on his mechanical/confidence issues and not worry about his next start or two. To say Lou sucks, he's annoying, this is a stuipid decision is just ignorant.

 

We ALL know this is NOT a permanent thing - the story on cubs.com says it's for this series only. Let's just relax and see how this plays out. I see a lot of positives that can come out of this.

 

They see his upside, talent and potential which is why they're doing this. If anything, this is a sign the organization values Hill's upside and talent and why they're taking these steps they feel may benefit Hill.