Can Theriot actually be adequate?

[Abe Frohman]

So you're saying if Cedeno had a few hundred great ABs in AAA, you might want to give him a run? Say OPS'd somewhere over .900 for 500+ ABs.

 

Is Cedeno really the only professional baseball player to light up AAA and fizzle in MLB? Really?

[inari]

So you're saying if Cedeno had a few hundred great ABs in AAA, you might want to give him a run? Say OPS'd somewhere over .900 for 500+ ABs.

 

Is Cedeno really the only professional baseball player to light up AAA and fizzle in MLB? Really?

 

He hasn't gotten a fair shot to fizzle in MLB.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

So you're saying if Cedeno had a few hundred great ABs in AAA, you might want to give him a run? Say OPS'd somewhere over .900 for 500+ ABs.

 

Is Cedeno really the only professional baseball player to light up AAA and fizzle in MLB? Really?

 

He hasn't gotten a fair shot to fizzle in MLB.

 

Actually he did in 2006..that being said, he probably was not ready yet, and should deserve at least another shot.

[rocket]

he's not a very good baseball player.

 

Obviously. He's the starting SS for the Chicago Cubs.

 

cedeno probably isn't either, but he's more likely to be good than theriot.

 

Not based on statistical evidence.

 

is theriot likely to be better than a player who in their 22 year old season put up a line of .273/.300/.386 in approximately 700 at bats?

[Tracer Bullet]

Honestly, Theriot sucks, and Cedeno likely does too. I think Cedeno, given 600 PAs or whatever, would probably hit better than Theriot, but not so much better that it's worth getting worked up over.

 

Either way, I just don't like terrible arguments (age doesn't matter!) being used to prop up either side.

 

One thing that I have thought of, though, is this. What would hurt the offense less, having Theriot's .325 obp in the leadoff spot (since Lou will hit him there), or having Cedeno's .300 obp in the 8 spot? I think that's a legit question.

 

Just thought of that, huh?

 

if Theriot's in the lineup all year, he gets 700 PAs b/c he'll hit 1/2. That's a lot of bad or, at best, mediocre, PAs. If Cedeno's in the lineup, his EqA (terrible or otherwise) is hitting 8th and our better hitters all move up 1 spot, meaning they get more PAs, meaning likely more Rs for the team.

 

Well, I said that I had thought of it, not just thought of it. I also don't know that it "likely means more runs for the team", unless you care to prove that statement.

 

I was just messin.

 

But I do think having Cedeno 7th or 8th and the better hitters getting more PA will mean more runs for the team. Obviously I can't prove that, given that we don't even know how each of these guys will perform, let alone what actual effect the lineup position would have.

[Tracer Bullet]

Honestly, Theriot sucks, and Cedeno likely does too. I think Cedeno, given 600 PAs or whatever, would probably hit better than Theriot, but not so much better that it's worth getting worked up over.

 

Either way, I just don't like terrible arguments (age doesn't matter!) being used to prop up either side.

 

One thing that I have thought of, though, is this. What would hurt the offense less, having Theriot's .325 obp in the leadoff spot (since Lou will hit him there), or having Cedeno's .300 obp in the 8 spot? I think that's a legit question.

 

Just thought of that, huh?

 

if Theriot's in the lineup all year, he gets 700 PAs b/c he'll hit 1/2. That's a lot of bad or, at best, mediocre, PAs. If Cedeno's in the lineup, his EqA (terrible or otherwise) is hitting 8th and our better hitters all move up 1 spot, meaning they get more PAs, meaning likely more Rs for the team.

 

Except Lou has been quite adament saying his CF has to hit in the 8th spot, which means Ronny would actually hit 7th.

 

Cedeno 7th or 8th sounds better than Theriot 1st. That's a heck of a lot fewer PAs for one of the worst hitters on the team, and a significant increase in PAs for the better hitters.

[brinoch]

So you're saying if Cedeno had a few hundred great ABs in AAA, you might want to give him a run? Say OPS'd somewhere over .900 for 500+ ABs.

 

Is Cedeno really the only professional baseball player to light up AAA and fizzle in MLB? Really?

 

He hasn't gotten a fair shot to fizzle in MLB.

 

Actually he did in 2006..that being said, he probably was not ready yet, and should deserve at least another shot.

 

Not a fair shot, given that he wasn't ready. Even you concede that he probably wasn't ready yet.

[nilodnayr]

I'm guessing this was already brought up but Theriot's minor league MLE in 2005 was 258/313/341 with a 234 EqA. In 2006 it was 268/327/335 for a 242 EqA. Both of those lines are really close to his 2007 line.

[UK1679666180]

All this talk about offensive production from two player that are likely #8 hitters based on their talents, yet we're talking about SS and defense is still getting ignored.

[Tracer Bullet]

All this talk about offensive production from two player that are likely #8 hitters based on their talents, yet we're talking about SS and defense is still getting ignored.

 

Probably true, but Theriot is leading off. That's why I have the bigger problem with him starting over Ronny. At least there's a chance that Ronny's offense in the 7/8 spot is so much better than Theriot's offense leading off that it off-sets his defense (assuming it would really be worse than Theriot's).

[nilodnayr]

All this talk about offensive production from two player that are likely #8 hitters based on their talents, yet we're talking about SS and defense is still getting ignored.

 

Theriot is no Adam Everett. If he were, this thread would (or maybe rather should) be quite different.

[David]

Defensively the argument is much the same, IMO.

 

Theriot is bad to mediocre, Cedeno could be worse, but has the potential to be much better.

[Tyrant]

Defensively the argument is much the same, IMO.

 

Theriot is bad to mediocre, Cedeno could be worse, but has the potential to be much better.

 

Defensive stats are imperfect, but Theriot has usually been rated average to slightly-above average defensively. His RZR rating (if you put any stock in it) had him 5th in the NL last year.

 

He's not great, but he's a decent fielder.

[abuck1220]

All this talk about offensive production from two player that are likely #8 hitters based on their talents, yet we're talking about SS and defense is still getting ignored.

 

i don't feel like there's enough of a difference, if any, between them. cedeno botches more easy plays, but he has better range and a better arm.

[Tyrant]

All this talk about offensive production from two player that are likely #8 hitters based on their talents, yet we're talking about SS and defense is still getting ignored.

 

i don't feel like there's enough of a difference, if any, between them. cedeno botches more easy plays, but he has better range and a better arm.

 

His arm is stronger, but much less accurate.

[CubbieBum]

Theriot is the better defensive player. Yeah Cedeno may come up with a few extra spectacular plays but he will blow a heck of a lot more easy ones than Theriot.

 

The way I have looked at this Theriot leading off situation is I would rather have him lead off then Soriano. their difference in on-base % last year was less than .010. I can live with putting Theriot in lead off if that means Soriano gets to bat 2nd and have the chance at getting more RBIs. Plus something I haven't seen mentioned (I didn't read every single page of this thread) is that being in front of Soriano Lee Ramirez means Theriot should see some better pitches to hit.

[Sammy Sofa]

I have zero faih in Theriot seeing more of anything considering he takes fewer pitches than anyone else on the team.

[CubbieBum]

I have zero faih in Theriot seeing more of anything considering he takes fewer pitches than anyone else on the team.

 

I think you are forgetting about one Carlos Zambrano. :-"

[Sammy Sofa]

I have zero faih in Theriot seeing more of anything considering he takes fewer pitches than anyone else on the team.

 

I think you are forgetting about one Carlos Zambrano. :-"

 

I think you're forgetting Zambrano doesn't bat everyday and bats as a pitcher.

[CubbieBum]

I have zero faih in Theriot seeing more of anything considering he takes fewer pitches than anyone else on the team.

 

I think you are forgetting about one Carlos Zambrano. :-"

 

I think you're forgetting Zambrano doesn't bat everyday and bats as a pitcher.

 

He does have the most power on the team though.

[Rob]

Theriot is the better defensive player. Yeah Cedeno may come up with a few extra spectacular plays but he will blow a heck of a lot more easy ones than Theriot.

 

Your eyes deceive you.

 

Those "easy" plays that Cedeno is botching? Theriot isn't even able to get to a lot of those balls on his best days. It isn't really fair to ding Cedeno for a play that Theriot wouldn't have made either.

 

The way I have looked at this Theriot leading off situation is I would rather have him lead off then Soriano. their difference in on-base % last year was less than .010. I can live with putting Theriot in lead off if that means Soriano gets to bat 2nd and have the chance at getting more RBIs. Plus something I haven't seen mentioned (I didn't read every single page of this thread) is that being in front of Soriano Lee Ramirez means Theriot should see some better pitches to hit.

 

1.) Theriot is the worst hitter on this team. Leadoff hitters get the most PA of any person on the team. Logically, there is no conceivable way that you can defend Theriot batting leadoff. None. The worst hitter on the team should not be the one we send to the plate most often, not in any circumstance.

 

2.) RBI's mean almost nothing.

 

3.) Wouldn't Theriot getting better pitches to hit be a bad thing? He doesn't have enough power to do any real damage with them... and if the pitchers are making sure not to walk Theriot, his offensive value is lower than Cedeno's floor.

[CubbieBum]

Theriot is the better defensive player. Yeah Cedeno may come up with a few extra spectacular plays but he will blow a heck of a lot more easy ones than Theriot.

 

Your eyes deceive you.

 

Those "easy" plays that Cedeno is botching? Theriot isn't even able to get to a lot of those balls on his best days. It isn't really fair to ding Cedeno for a play that Theriot wouldn't have made either.

 

The way I have looked at this Theriot leading off situation is I would rather have him lead off then Soriano. their difference in on-base % last year was less than .010. I can live with putting Theriot in lead off if that means Soriano gets to bat 2nd and have the chance at getting more RBIs. Plus something I haven't seen mentioned (I didn't read every single page of this thread) is that being in front of Soriano Lee Ramirez means Theriot should see some better pitches to hit.

 

1.) Theriot is the worst hitter on this team. Leadoff hitters get the most PA of any person on the team. Logically, there is no conceivable way that you can defend Theriot batting leadoff. None. The worst hitter on the team should not be the one we send to the plate most often, not in any circumstance.

 

2.) RBI's mean almost nothing.

 

3.) Wouldn't Theriot getting better pitches to hit be a bad thing? He doesn't have enough power to do any real damage with them... and if the pitchers are making sure not to walk Theriot, his offensive value is lower than Cedeno's floor.

 

1. How does Cedeno get to balls Theriot can't? Theriot is every bit as quick as Cedeno. And really where were all these Cedeno defense fans up until a month or two ago.

 

2. Pie is a worse hitter right now than Theriot. Does he has the potential to be better, of course, but he has yet to show it in the bigs.

 

3. RBIs mean nothing??? Sure it doesn't matter who gets them, but Soriano batting with a guy on base is much better than Theriot and just about everyone else on this team. This is why I'm not going crazy about Theriot being leadoff. Would I prefer a better hitter, sure, but we all know if Theriot isn't leadoff Soriano would be with Lou. Would you rather Soriano get on base and then Theriot try to bat him in or Theriot get on base and Soriano try and bat him in?

 

4. Getting better pitches isn't mall about hitting homeruns. Thats just the same as saying hitting is all about getting homeruns. If Theriot sees better pitches that means he will get more hits. Will they be homeruns? No like you say he doesn't have the power for it, but his average would likely be higher.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Pie is a worse hitter right now than Theriot.

lolz

[Sammy Sofa]

4. Getting better pitches isn't mall about hitting homeruns. Thats just the same as saying hitting is all about getting homeruns. If Theriot sees better pitches that means he will get more hits. Will they be homeruns? No like you say he doesn't have the power for it, but his average would likely be higher.

 

Why? Seeing better pitches doesn't help enough with someone who is a mediocre or worse hitter. That's like saying Juan Pierre would hit more if he saw better pitches. Hell, Theriot is just like Pierre as a "threat" at the plate...pitchers will feed him anything because he's barely gonna take any pitches or he's likely to just weakly ground/fly out.

[Rob]

1. How does Cedeno get to balls Theriot can't? Theriot is every bit as quick as Cedeno. And really where were all these Cedeno defense fans up until a month or two ago.

 

Well, he really isn't as quick... but that's irrelevant to the discussion. Theriot's arm is so weak that he's playing in a few steps to give himself more time to make the throw. Unfortunately, that severely limits his range. Cedeno gets to a lot more balls. I'm not arguing that he doesn't make more mistakes on the ones he gets to, but I am saying that he gets to enough extra balls that he covers the difference.

 

2. Pie is a worse hitter right now than Theriot. Does he has the potential to be better, of course, but he has yet to show it in the bigs.

 

Only if you're so stubborn as to discount MiLB numbers far more than necessary. But if that's already the case, I wont bother pointing out exactly how disparate their offensive talents are. Suffice to say, Theriot is an abysmal hitter and Pie is not.

 

3. RBIs mean nothing??? Sure it doesn't matter who gets them, but Soriano batting with a guy on base is much better than Theriot and just about everyone else on this team. This is why I'm not going crazy about Theriot being leadoff. Would I prefer a better hitter, sure, but we all know if Theriot isn't leadoff Soriano would be with Lou. Would you rather Soriano get on base and then Theriot try to bat him in or Theriot get on base and Soriano try and bat him in?

 

I said RBI's mean almost nothing. And I meant that in the individual context. Obviously I'd like the team to have as many as possible... it'd be a pretty positive sign.

 

Oh, I would much rather have Soriano trying to bat Theriot in. But I'm a believer in the "2nd leadoff hitter" philosophy that would have Theriot batting 9th, behind the pitcher. Again, there's no excuse to give Theriot more at bats than absolutely necessary. He's hurting the team far more often than anybody else when he steps into that batters box.

 

4. Getting better pitches isn't mall about hitting homeruns. Thats just the same as saying hitting is all about getting homeruns. If Theriot sees better pitches that means he will get more hits. Will they be homeruns? No like you say he doesn't have the power for it, but his average would likely be higher.

 

So your argument is that Theriot is going to hit more line drives with better hitters behind him? Do you have anything besides anecdotal proof that lineup protection has anything to do with line drive percentage?

Edited March 29, 2008 by Rob