Why Does Everyone Hate Pie?

[BigbadB]

I dont have stats to back it up tho...

 

I think this joke has run its course.

[minnesotacubsfan]

I dont have stats to back it up tho...

 

I think this joke has run its course.

 

prolly...

[seanimal]

Who's Felix Pie?

[hawkeyecub]

Is the word "groupthink" really that offensive? I think everyone here should be able to recognize that while it's not groupthink, there certainly is a tendency for people to change their opinion based on what one or a few posters say. At least I think I see it here more than other sports boards, maybe I'm wrong.

 

Pie is an example of that. This summer I remember when the Pie for Khalil Greene deal was rumored in the San Diego paper and it seemed like absolutely no one was in favor of it because of his OBP. Then Meph posted his splits and suddenly dozens of posters were jonesing for him.

The same thing happens in transaction threads. You'll see a few posters complaining to no end about a deal. Then goony, TT, Ping, Meph or someone like that will say it's really not a bad deal and the same people immediately change their opinions.

 

That's not to say there aren't plenty of independent thinkers. There just also seems to be a fair percentage that changes their opinion based on what a few regulars think.

[bhogg]

i like cooter pie

[Sammy Sofa]

Is the word "groupthink" really that offensive? I think everyone here should be able to recognize that while it's not groupthink, there certainly is a tendency for people to change their opinion based on what one or a few posters say. At least I think I see it here more than other sports boards, maybe I'm wrong.

 

Pie is an example of that. This summer I remember when the Pie for Khalil Greene deal was rumored in the San Diego paper and it seemed like absolutely no one was in favor of it because of his OBP. Then Meph posted his splits and suddenly dozens of posters were jonesing for him.

The same thing happens in transaction threads. You'll see a few posters complaining to no end about a deal. Then goony, TT, Ping, Meph or someone like that will say it's really not a bad deal and the same people immediately change their opinions.

 

That's not to say there aren't plenty of independent thinkers. There just also seems to be a fair percentage that changes their opinion based on what a few regulars think.

 

Despite his posting "quirks," Meph typically is able to back up his points very well. You pointed it out yourself...he made a excellent argument regarding Greene's splits that show he is typically going to do very well offensively away once he's away from the Padres. Combine that with his very good defense and he fills a massive hole on this Cubs team.

 

Most of the people you listed are able to back up their arguments. That's going to make them very persuasive. It's not a stretch at all when people tend to agree with people like that as opposed to people just generally speaking with "it seems to me" or "I think maybe" or various examples of "gut-think" analysis.

[UK1679666180]

You'll see a few posters complaining to no end about a deal. Then goony, TT, Ping, Meph or someone like that will say it's really not a bad deal and the same people immediately change their opinions

 

When has Goony never complained? :)

 

I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.

[frostwyrm]

I remember when the prevailing opinion was that Pie would be ready to contribute in the 2nd half of 2006. Obviously that was way optimistic. I think he has to do something in the 2nd half of 2008 to show he can be a MLB everyday player in 2009. Otherwise we need to look elsewhere for a CF. The cycle of stopgaps has to stop.

[javy knows my name]

2. Aside from his statistical success, he's widely seen as a five tool prospect with projectable tools and is the type of athlete that can win Gold Gloves in CF. Truthfully, this fact isn't really overlooked by anyone, as we all witnessed his defense in Chicago last year.

This is why Jimbo has declared him untouchable. And this is mostly wrong, for these reasons. I really thought at first that you were trying to push people's buttons by uttering the four-letter word that is "five-tool prospect." Guess you just didn't know any better.

Jimmy Rollins won a gold glove this year. David Wright won over Aramis.

That said, I agree with most or all of the trades proposed involving Pie, and contend that none of them are for "crap."

[sneakypower]

Who doesn't like 5-tool prospects?

[Mephistopheles]

me

[Yanksfan1523]

me

 

I agree, 100%

[badnews]

Alex Escobar and Chad Hermansen were 5 tool outfield prospects too!

 

I don't like Felix Pie because I don't see a lot of success with guys who have a 3:1 K/BB ratio and strike out in 22% of their ABs. For all the talk about his speed his minor league stolen base record is pretty crappy. Even his defense seems overrated, you'd think from all the talk about his arm we were getting someone who would make an immediate impact on the game like Jeff Francoeur did when he racked up like 12 assists in how many games when he came up, the way people talked about Pie's arm I thought when he made throws from the outfield it would have like a comet tail behind the ball. And then when you'd actually see him make those throws when baserunning was actually a factor, I'd sit back, fold my arms, and declare "That wasn't so impressive!" I wanted to see something like when Bo Jackson threw out that runner tagging up from 3rd from the warning track. Now I feel cheated. He also seemed to fall off after a hot start in AAA as well.

 

I don't see why I should be that impressed. I don't know why I should be on board with the "If he can hit .240 and play great defense, he'll be very good for the Cubs" line of thinking either. I mean, hey, Jacque Jones and Corey Patterson played very good center field defense and hit better than that and no one gave a damn. I don't think anyone was that excited when Willy Taveras did better than that and played great center field defense. Or Brady Clark in 2005, or Jeremy Reed, I don't think being a good defensive center fielder and not being able to hit very well has made Luis Matos a sought-after commodity, or Endy Chavez... people make it sound like he'd be the Henry Blanco of center field. The exaggerations about his arm have now made me skeptical about his game-changing defense and I will have to see it to believe it.

[TruffleShuffle]

i don't like him because the cubs are, as an organization, terrible at developing position players, and really terrible when it comes to guys who have questionable plate discipline. Pie strikes out at a pretty high rate and his weaknesses in his plate discipline and approach will, I believe, be exploited by pitchers at the big league level.

[UK1679666180]

Alex Escobar and Chad Hermansen were 5 tool outfield prospects too!

 

I don't see why I should be that impressed. I don't know why I should be on board with the "If he can hit .240 and play great defense, he'll be very good for the Cubs" line of thinking either. I mean, hey, Jacque Jones and Corey Patterson played very good center field defense and hit better than that and no one gave a damn. I don't think anyone was that excited when Willy Taveras did better than that and played great center field defense. Or Brady Clark in 2005, or Jeremy Reed, I don't think being a good defensive center fielder and not being able to hit very well has made Luis Matos a sought-after commodity, or Endy Chavez... people make it sound like he'd be the Henry Blanco of center field. The exaggerations about his arm have now made me skeptical about his game-changing defense and I will have to see it to believe it.

 

Barry Bonds and Carlos Beltran were 5 tool OF prospects as well, Magglio Ordonez was as well and he had a worse approach than Pie coming out of Venezuela.

 

I support Pie starting in CF and if that includes needing the time to adjust offensively, so be it. If he doesn't progress offensively, it becomes an issue, but he hasn't been given that chance nor is there anyone else blocked by Pie who might be better.

 

Given the current Cubs roster, there will likely be 3 below avg. spots of offensive production and two that could be dealt with (SS and CF), I'd rather see them go with the higher ceiling player (Pie) and improve SS rather if their ultimate goal is to get a better bat in the lineup.

[minnesotacubsfan]

Who doesn't like 5-tool prospects?

 

 

I like them, as long as they produce.

 

at some point in their career.

 

a line like :

G  AB   R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   TB  BB  SO  SB  CS  OBP  SLG  AVG  OPS  E  
55 229 51   83  9   5   9  43   129  19  40    9   6 .410 .563 .362 .973  3 

 

when they are 22 yrs old at AAA

 

 

o wait...

[C.C.]

Winter league action:

 

Felix Pie - OF Cubs

.239/.308/.385, 2 HR, 13 RBI, 28/10 K/BB, 6 SB in 109 AB

 

Pie cut back on the strikeouts in Triple-A last season, but it didn't carry over to the majors and he's fanned 28 times in 31 games in the DWL. The Cubs want him to be their center fielder, but they should keep Matt Murton as an insurance policy. Kosuke Fukudome should prove adequate in center if needed.

 

http://rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=29688

[minnesotacubsfan]

Winter league action:

 

Felix Pie - OF Cubs

.239/.308/.385, 2 HR, 13 RBI, 28/10 K/BB, 6 SB in 109 AB

 

Pie cut back on the strikeouts in Triple-A last season, but it didn't carry over to the majors and he's fanned 28 times in 31 games in the DWL. The Cubs want him to be their center fielder, but they should keep Matt Murton as an insurance policy. Kosuke Fukudome should prove adequate in center if needed.

 

http://rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=29688

 

 

ouch

[1908]

Winter league action:

 

Felix Pie - OF Cubs

.239/.308/.385, 2 HR, 13 RBI, 28/10 K/BB, 6 SB in 109 AB

 

Pie cut back on the strikeouts in Triple-A last season, but it didn't carry over to the majors and he's fanned 28 times in 31 games in the DWL. The Cubs want him to be their center fielder, but they should keep Matt Murton as an insurance policy. Kosuke Fukudome should prove adequate in center if needed.

 

http://rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=29688

Felix Pie hasn't exactly torn up the Dominican this winter. But an easy, worth-reading offering from rotoworld.com puts Pie's mediocre season in an interesting context.

 

Pitchers are WAY ahead of hitters this year in the Dominican Winter League, holding batters to an OPS of about .650, which is 110 points lower than the 2007 average in the big leagues. That's worth knowing when considering Pie's .239 average, two homers and 13 RBIs in 31 games for Licey. Pie hasn't been playing lately, resting on a .694 OPS, which is a notch above average in the pitching-rich league. Pie has 10 walks and 28 strikeouts, about the same 1-3 ratio he had with the Cubs last season.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2007/12/fast-food-for-1.html

[hardcorecubfan]

why do we hate Pie??

 

Maybe because we had an over-rated "five tool" center fielder that disapinted us in the recent past, and he has shown the same consistancy as that gentleman who is nopw in Baltimore.

[RynoRules]

i don't like him because the cubs are, as an organization, terrible at developing position players, and really terrible when it comes to guys who have questionable plate discipline. Pie strikes out at a pretty high rate and his weaknesses in his plate discipline and approach will, I believe, be exploited by pitchers at the big league level.

 

I agree with this. Its not that I don't like Felix, its that I don't trust the Cubs to help him develop the way they should.

[jersey cubs fan]

You'll see a few posters complaining to no end about a deal. Then goony, TT, Ping, Meph or someone like that will say it's really not a bad deal and the same people immediately change their opinions

 

When has Goony never complained? :)

 

When has anybody ever been influenced by anything he said?

[KingCubsFan]

In my humble opinion, the main reason people are down on Pie is because his predessor as top OF prospect, CPatt, fell flat on his face.....Everyone saw Patterson's metoric rise and eventual downfall, so I'm sure most are worried Felix is headed towards the same path.

 

It may be safer, for some, to trade him now while he has good market value rather then risk holding on to him and get nothing just like what happened with Patterson.....

 

Thoughts?

 

That may be the main reason for most who are down on him. There's also the issue that he strikes out a ton and doesn't walk much, two very big red flags when evaluating a prospect. So, even if Corey never existed, I'm sure there would be many with doubts. There's also the fact that a certain part of the crowd views all prospects as suspects first and foremost.

I think this is one of the big reasons as well. Obviously, the K/BB ratios are alarming, but that's why I pointed out the improvement. Are there any other red flags? Is it his stint in the majors last year? I admit I might have exaggerated the "trading for crap" line, but I still don't understand why people are willing to trade Pie for something good when Soto should be untouchable. Neither of them are easily replaceable long-term.

 

There are some names that can be thrown into the CF mix in the near and intermediate term. Fukudome, Eric Patterson, Tyler Colvin, etc. If Soto gets traded, the Cubs will be left with Blanco and whatever piece of garbage Hendry finds off the scrap heap, and then hope to heck that Donaldson develops quickly. And there are questions about whether he can stick at C in the first place.

 

I think many people believe that while Colvin may have a very limited upside, he's also a safe bet to reach it, and could come in and provide average production very shortly. He's a big reason why some view Pie as more expendable. And there are no questions about his ability to stick at the position.

If Colvin can come in and be average after the lines he's put up, then Pie must be the next Beltran. At this point, I just see all the names you listed as equivalent to Ryan Theriot at SS. Bench players that shouldn't be starters. I guess that's why I think Pie is important to the team's future

[sneakypower]

why do we hate Pie??

 

Maybe because we had an over-rated "five tool" center fielder that disapinted us in the recent past, and he has shown the same consistancy as that gentleman who is nopw in Baltimore.

Corey Patterson was not a 5-tool prospect though. .261 in AA, .253 in AAA- it should have been obvious that he was missing the hitting tool. For comparison's sake, Pie hit .304 at AA and .308 at AAA.

 

The problem with the "5-tool prospect" label is that seemingly 80% of the players described as such are really 3-4 tool players. There's really no reason anybody should dislike legitimate 5 tool players for their teams. Hell, Beane even said something to the effect of "Ideally you'd prefer 5 tool players at all positions, but it's not financially feasible." I'm paraphrasing, but that's essentially the idea.

[David]

why do we hate Pie??

 

Maybe because we had an over-rated "five tool" center fielder that disapinted us in the recent past, and he has shown the same consistancy as that gentleman who is nopw in Baltimore.

 

 

What?